Burgold Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 how unamerican I have come to believe the phrase "unamerican" is the most unamerican of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 All I can say is, your bordering on Communism. Now that's just silly. No-one, other than those arguing your side is saying 3am in North Dakota, or nowhere is the time and place. The next thing you know, we will have people smuggling Bibles into our country so people can worship in secret. This is nothing to do with religion. If someone was protesting the Iraq war, Dan Snyder's management style, or fiscal policy in an intrusive way the same point would apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 you are kidding right? please tell me you are smarter than this and this is not your argument if he were preaching muslim teachings........ that MOST DEFINATELY would be a learning experience for the kids. freedom of religion....... another great foundation of this country anti american rhetoric? ....... guess what....... ANOTHER founding principal ...... the right to dissent...... all i have heard from yall so far is freedom of speech exist only if you agree with , when , where , how , and what the person is saying....... how unamerican That's how freedom of speech has always existed. But for some reason every so often some jackass like this guy has to try to stretch his freedom to the furthest extend of everybody's nerves. Nobody is saying he isn't allowed to say the things he is saying, just that there is a time and place - and on a public sidewalk in front of a major tourist attraction is not the time or place and never has been. Unfortunately, people like that guy do things where security have to shut him down and then other people take up his cause saying his freedom of speech is being prevented when that's just not true. God dammit, you're making me sound like a ****ing conservative. :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 I have come to believe the phrase "unamerican" is the most unamerican of all. context baby context....... never ignore the context...... otherwise i agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 A number of locations have introduced legislation to make it very clear that he can't.Are you OK with people interfering at the Tomb of the Unknowns too? Not protesting on the pathway as you approach, but "in your face" intrusion? On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, stood on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center, on the western edge of Independence Historical Park, preaching a message against abortion and declaring "we need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" to a crowd waiting to enter the park. :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 context baby context....... never ignore the context......otherwise i agree 100% Does that mean in reality you agree 98.4%? It is the diversity of ideas. The right to be wrong, silly, ridiculous, or outrageous. That makes America, America. There are many thoughts that are incredibly dangerous to American well-being, but few thoughts that are actually unamerican. (mind you, I'm being entirely philosophical here) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 all i have heard from yall so far is freedom of speech exist only if you agree with , when , where , how , and what the person is saying....... Bull****. If you think that then you have profound reading comprehension difficulties. It is not about what. It is about having completely no restrictions to where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 God dammit, you're making me sound like a ****ing conservative. :mad: lol sorry man i wouldnt do that to my worst enemy....... however On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, stood on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center, on the western edge of Independence Historical Park, preaching a message against abortion and declaring "we need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" to a crowd waiting to enter the park. would it make sense to protest or preach in a back alley with noone to hear the message? down here we have a guy who preaches with a microphone on a sidewalk on the busiest intersection in town on sunday morning........ with a mic and an amp!!!! nobody stops him and he is definately disturbing the peace with an amp and a bullhorn........ do i want him to stop? NO ..... it is his right to do so..... and im buddhist so its not like i say he is ok because i agree with him........ i just agree he has a right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corcaigh Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, stood on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center, on the western edge of Independence Historical Park, preaching a message against abortion and declaring "we need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" to a crowd waiting to enter the park.:whoknows: OK, if I grant you that he's OK there, do you think he can follow me in and heckle me and my family as we vist the Liberty Bell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Does that mean in reality you agree 98.4%?It is the diversity of ideas. The right to be wrong, silly, ridiculous, or outrageous. That makes America, America. There are many thoughts that are incredibly dangerous to American well-being, but few thoughts that are actually unamerican. (mind you, I'm being entirely philosophical here) i guess we can agree to disagree................ but in my opinion anyone who limits the freedoms as set forth by the constitution is BY DEFINITION unamerican......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 lol sorry man i wouldnt do that to my worst enemy....... however On Oct. 7, Michael A. Marcavage, director of the evangelistic organization Repent America, stood on the sidewalk outside the Liberty Bell Center, on the western edge of Independence Historical Park, preaching a message against abortion and declaring "we need to repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ" to a crowd waiting to enter the park. would it make sense to protest or preach in a back alley with noone to hear the message? down here we have a guy who preaches with a microphone on a sidewalk on the busiest intersection in town on sunday morning........ with a mic and an amp!!!! nobody stops him and he is definately disturbing the peace with an amp and a bullhorn........ do i want him to stop? NO ..... it is his right to do so..... and im buddhist so its not like i say he is ok because i agree with him........ i just agree he has a right You're completely dismissing the public's right to peace. If, and that's a BIG if, the Liberty Bell people had previously established these 'free speech zones' than they are well within their rights to shut this guy down. According to you there should be no noise ordinances and I would be allowed to hold a concert in my backyard at 2am on a Monday morning. Of course it also reminds me of a Todd Snider lyric: All I wanted was one chance to let freedom ring They said I would have to get a permit, bunch of tags and everything... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 OK, if I grant you that he's OK there, do you think he can follow me in and heckle me and my family as we vist the Liberty Bell? no because THAT is harrassment and there are laws against that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Corcaigh is correct. (And rincewind, and so on, so please don't fuss at me. ) Everyone agrees that one should not be able to yell fire in a crowded theater, so the question is not whether or not speech should be curtailed, but only a matter of to what degree. I think this curtailment is reasonable. I don't buy the slippery slope argument. I think we can use common sense. Heck, we have to use common sense, because if the slippery slope argument is right, Schenck v. U.S. should have sent us flying down it to our destruction long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 no because THAT is harrassment and there are laws against that To some, being told you have to repent is harrassment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Corcaigh is correct. (And rincewind, and so on, so please don't fuss at me. )Everyone agrees that one should not be able to yell fire in a crowded theater, so the question is not whether or not speech should be curtailed, but only a matter of to what degree. I think this curtailment is reasonable. I don't buy the slippery slope argument. I think we can use common sense. Heck, we have to use common sense, because if the slippery slope argument is right, Schenck v. U.S. should have sent us flying down it to our destruction long ago. Corcaigh - look one of 'them' agrees with us. And its a big one of 'them'. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 You're completely dismissing the public's right to peace. If, and that's a BIG if, the Liberty Bell people had previously established these 'free speech zones' than they are well within their rights to shut this guy down. According to you there should be no noise ordinances and I would be allowed to hold a concert in my backyard at 2am on a Monday morning.Of course it also reminds me of a Todd Snider lyric: All I wanted was one chance to let freedom ring They said I would have to get a permit, bunch of tags and everything... you are doing a great job of splitting hairs here...... a free speech zone is ...... any public land intended for the use of and for the people of the untied states disturbing the peace via a concert in your backyard is something entirely different....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 i guess we can agree to disagree................ but in my opinion anyone who limits the freedoms as set forth by the constitution is BY DEFINITION unamerican......... Fair enough. I'm actually much more on your side on this issue. It's just that phrase that I find jarring. Too much bad history behind it. My feeling is sort of this. He has the right to speech and speak anywhere at anytime on any subject he wants as long as he doesn't assault me or infringe on my rights. Now, my rights don't include peace and enjoyment of a historical monument, but they do include freedom of assembly and ambulation. So, if he does not obstruct me, badger me, or interfere with me directly, than he should be able to say whatever he wants to say... However, the moment he impedes, blocks, or harrasses anyone... the story changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 you are doing a great job of splitting hairs here......a free speech zone is ...... any public land intended for the use of and for the people of the untied states disturbing the peace via a concert in your backyard is something entirely different....... Disagree with the splitting hairs. And even if I was I could just change the scenario to say the by your logic I should be allowed to hold a concert, or at the very least BLAST my music in the middle of Central Park... or right outside the Liberty Bell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins561 Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Now that's just silly. No-one, other than those arguing your side is saying 3am in North Dakota, or nowhere is the time and place.. Nope, it isn't, this story and supporting taking away someones freedom reminds me of stories my father use to tell me. A quick background, my Father smuggled Bibles into Communist countries including Romania and Russia with a private organization called Underground Evangelism. I have heard first hand stories about people being punished for being openly Christian. I have seen pictures that my father took of people worshipping in Churches actually basements. If we keep on taking our rights away, as Americans, I can see this happening one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
techboy Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Corcaigh - look one of 'them' agrees with us. And its a big one of 'them'. :laugh: I was thinking about saying "I agree with the godless atheist and agnostic", but there are too many heathens on the other side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 To some, being told you have to repent is harrassment. once again it isnt about the message content it is about the right to display your message........ following someone around is harrassment and is akin to stalking........ there are laws specifically against such things..... you should be able to stand on the sidewalk and read mein kempf <SP> in front of a jewish mueseum so long as you are on public property such as a sidewalk......... freedom of speech means you can say what you wish ..... even if it means making an ass of yourself..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeknows Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I was thinking about saying "I agree with the godless atheist and agnostic", but there are too many heathens on the other side. Thou shalt not judge..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 you should be able to stand on the sidewalk and read mein kempf <SP> in front of a jewish mueseum so long as you are on public property such as a sidewalk......... Actually, I think that would qualify as enciting a riot. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Thou shalt not judge..... Not even while using a 'silly' smilie? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoSkins561 Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 once again it isnt about the message content it is about the right to display your message........ following someone around is harrassment and is akin to stalking........ there are laws specifically against such things..... you should be able to stand on the sidewalk and read mein kempf <SP> in front of a jewish mueseum so long as you are on public property such as a sidewalk......... freedom of speech means you can say what you wish ..... even if it means making an ass of yourself..... Hey in complete and total contrast and correct me if I am wrong. You are the first Obama supporter, I have agreed with on this board for a long time. FREEDOM!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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