Betts and 1st pick for Boldin

[Veretax]

I beg to differ.

you are free to disagree with me if you want, but very few if any WRs that have been in the league anytime are worth both a 1st Rounder and another pick/player. Boldin isn't worth a 1st plus betts, that is just plain insane. I don't think he's worth a 1st, because he like Houshmandzadeh in Cincy gets his numbers because they are worried about the guy on the other side.

I'd rather draft a young hungry guy, we don't need Boldin. End of story.

[SonnyandSam]

You do know that Boldin had 101 catches and over 1300 yards receiving BEFORE Fitzgerald was even drafted by the Cards.

I think you have it backwards. Fitz gets a lot more catches because Boldin is around....but they do complement each other.

[TheREALJBird]

you are free to disagree with me if you want, but very few if any WRs that have been in the league anytime are worth both a 1st Rounder and another pick/player. Boldin isn't worth a 1st plus betts, that is just plain insane. I don't think he's worth a 1st, because he like Houshmandzadeh in Cincy gets his numbers because they are worried about the guy on the other side.

I'd rather draft a young hungry guy, we don't need Boldin. End of story.

How do you explain him getting his numbers when the guy on the other side wasn't even drafted yet?

[TheREALJBird]

You do know that Boldin had 101 catches and over 1300 yards receiving BEFORE Fitzgerald was even drafted by the Cards.

I think you have it backwards. Fitz gets a lot more catches because Boldin is around....but they do complement each other.

didn't see that you posted this....but yea I agree 100%

[SkinsBoYeeZ]

If there is any truth to this rumor...I would snatch this deal is a heart beat.

Yes, giving up a #1 hurts, but if we are going to go the WR route...I would gladly trade up that late #1 for Boldin. The guy is everything we need at the WR position. Big...possession WR with some speed. The guy is a star.

And folks are concerned about giving up Betts? Are we all talking about the same Betts here? The guy has been a solid backup....backup being the key word. He can be replaced. A Boldin does not come around so often.

DO IT VINNY AND DAN! GET THE JET GAS'd and READY TO GO.

[Spartacus87]

you are free to disagree with me if you want, but very few if any WRs that have been in the league anytime are worth both a 1st Rounder and another pick/player. Boldin isn't worth a 1st plus betts, that is just plain insane. I don't think he's worth a 1st, because he like Houshmandzadeh in Cincy gets his numbers because they are worried about the guy on the other side.

I'd rather draft a young hungry guy, we don't need Boldin. End of story.

So, so, so wrong, it's impossible to even begin to explain. They complement each other yes, but you don't get the kind of production Boldin has year after year even while having a couple injuries because of someone else on the other side of him, especially without the threat of any kind of real running game to put guys in the box instead of in coverage.

[Veretax]

So, so, so wrong, it's impossible to even begin to explain. They complement each other yes, but you don't get the kind of production Boldin has year after year even while having a couple injuries because of someone else on the other side of him, especially without the threat of any kind of real running game to put guys in the box instead of in coverage.

OKay what has been our history in trading for WRs. Not drafting or FA just trading. Let's see recent memory hrms....

Lavernous Coles -> now back in NY

Santana Moss -> Has done some good things, but struggled in 07

Brandon Lloyd -> Now with the Bears

So while I may think Boldin is a good receiver, I'm not into this give up draft picks for a player that plays in an entirely different system. He's not worth a 1st Rounder. And if he did come he'd take a huge pay day, and on top of that probably spend most of his time like Brandon Lloyd. I'd rather draft our own talent, or resign Caldwell as go after Boldin. I just don't think he's a good fit for our offense, period. And no you can't have betts to trade him, he's staying a redskin. Case closed!

[Spartacus87]

OKay what has been our history in trading for WRs. Not drafting or FA just trading. Let's see recent memory hrms....

Lavernous Coles -> now back in NY

Santana Moss -> Has done some good things, but struggled in 07

Brandon Lloyd -> Now with the Bears

So while I may think Boldin is a good receiver, I'm not into this give up draft picks for a player that plays in an entirely different system. He's not worth a 1st Rounder. And if he did come he'd take a huge pay day, and on top of that probably spend most of his time like Brandon Lloyd. I'd rather draft our own talent, or resign Caldwell as go after Boldin. I just don't think he's a good fit for our offense, period. And no you can't have betts to trade him, he's staying a redskin. Case closed!

Sooo because of recent mediocre luck with trading receivers, we shouldn't trade again for any receiver, no matter what the benefit might be. Interesting.

Coles decided to go crazy and become a problem, not the Redskins' fault he was worried about his role in the offense after catching 90 balls in a season. And Lloyd was all Al Saunders and the belief that following a very good year as the only real weapon on a terrible 49ers offense he could come here to a better team and perform.

Boldin's an absolute proven commodity, arguably a top 5 receiver in the league, especially given his age.

I don't know what you mean by "spend most of his time like Brandon Lloyd." Either you think he'll suck like Lloyd, or he'll start a rap career, or what, but the comparison alone points to you not knowing anything about Boldin's career or his playing style. As does the comment that he wouldn't fit into our offense.

He's probably the most physical receiver in the league, you can't ask for more than that in a WCO, someone willing to go across the middle on shorter routes and take hits and still get YAC.

In this Madden-esque hypothetical situation I understand your apprehension in dealing a 1st round pick, but the rest of your reasoning is terribly flawed.

[brianm23]

OKay what has been our history in trading for WRs. Not drafting or FA just trading. Let's see recent memory hrms....

Lavernous Coles -> now back in NY

Santana Moss -> Has done some good things, but struggled in 07

Brandon Lloyd -> Now with the Bears

So while I may think Boldin is a good receiver, I'm not into this give up draft picks for a player that plays in an entirely different system. He's not worth a 1st Rounder. And if he did come he'd take a huge pay day, and on top of that probably spend most of his time like Brandon Lloyd. I'd rather draft our own talent, or resign Caldwell as go after Boldin. I just don't think he's a good fit for our offense, period. And no you can't have betts to trade him, he's staying a redskin. Case closed!

Your cased isn't closed. You are comparing scrub receivers to a 2 time pro-bowler in the short time he's been in the NFL (5 years). A pro-bowl receiver at ARIZONA on top of that. This isn't like the guy hasn't proved anything or had one good year or is living off "potential". He's proved it since year one. Santana Moss had one good year and that's it.

Like I said, if Seattle gave New England a 1st rounder for Deon Branch, then I feel that Boldin is DEFINITELY worth the 1st round pick. I say this and I'm usually HELL bent about trading away draft picks.

[mi6]

Betts and a second rounder.

No trading the 1st rounder - PERIOD!

[Kevin101]

Betts and a second rounder.

No trading the 1st rounder - PERIOD!

Yeah..lets just keep an unproven project over a top 5 WR.

[slappy434]

And what "hopes" do you have for our back up RB? You act like he is the future of our team. He's 27 or 28, and im sure he is looking to step out from the shadow of Portis. I havent forgot about the #1 pick we would send to ARzona as well, im one of the first people who endorsed that idea. If Dallas and Philly are truely interested in Boldin, it would take our #1 pick, and a player. James isnt the same back he was in Indy and betts is Better then Shipp and Arrington. Mason young and has barely even been in the league, what do you expect from the little he has played, other then flashes of anything?

The bottom line is Betts output = Rock and our Mason output. Its an exchange, orur draft pick and a back up player, for a Starting, top tier WR who is young, and one of the best in the league at his position. Thank God you are not in our FO.

Stew, I'm not sure if you knew this or not but that same WR that you say is "young" is one year younger than the "27 or 28" year old Betts. If he was looking to step out of Portis' shadow, why would he have signed a new deal recently?

Your main knock on Betts is that he fumbles a lot.....

Ladell Betts:

rushing attempts - 659

receptions - 126

total times he's touched the ball - 785

number of times he's fumbled - 12

touches per fumble - 65.4

Anquan Boldin

rushing attemts - 24

receptions - 413

total times he's touched the ball - 437

number of times he's fumbled - 9

touches per fumble - 48.5

For being a RB and getting knocked around a heck of a lot more, Betts fumbles less per time he has the ball in his hands.

And come off it man. You act like I've been on Betts jock like McD5! I simply said that I don't think Betts and a #1 is worth Boldin. I don't think its a smart move for depth. Period.

A solid backup RB + a possible Pro Bowl DT, DE, OL or WR is not worth the possibility that Boldin's output in Washington will equal his output in Arizona.

BTW, thanks for bringing up E. James, that only backs up my previous point....He's excellent in Indy...gets traded...production drops off. You can't ALWAYS bank on the fact that just because someone is good for one team that they'll be good for another.

I'm starting to think that you just like Boldin because he's won you some FF games.:laugh: Maybe not, but I wouldn't be surpised.

My god man...at the rate I'm defending my opinion, I feel like I'm on Betts side to win a political office! I just don't see that its a great deal....too much money to pay him, too much to give up, too much in question to be sure. :2cents:

I think it would be a great pick up, but wait, he isnt as good as Super Betts so its not worth getting anything for Betts while we can.

There's no reason to be a pri<k....besides, there's never been a report that Boldin is definitely going to leave Arizona. Plus we'd take a pretty good sized cap hit if we traded Betts, which only adds to the cost of this deal.

Also, what makes you so sure that the Cardinals even want Betts? If he isn't any too good and he is as replaceable as you say he is, why wouldn't they just find someone to put on their roster who is just as good? You act like they "need" him.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

I really have a problem with trading away our first round pick because we so desperately need to draft good young talent, but one of our most pressing needs is a proven possession receiver

So I'm on the fence I guess

[slappy434]

Another thing too.....

....these guys saying that Boldin is a top 5 reciever: How so?

He's only been in the top 5 (in ANY receiving category) in 2 of his 5 years. One of those years was 2005 when he and Fitzgerald freaked out and went rampant on the NFL and you know who was better than Boldin that year in EVERY CATEGORY except receptions? Santana Moss.

Furthermore, of those top 5's that Boldin is in, they were ONLY for receptions, yards and yards per game....NOT TOUCHDOWNS. The guy is 6' 1" -- hardly a redzone target or a "Possession reciever"

In most recieving categories and for most of his career Boldin has been in the 12-20 range...not top 5.

I agree with any Boldin supporter that he would help spread the field and make ALL of our recievers more productive. He's a tough SOB and he'd be a great addition...I'd love to see him here.

I don't agree that he is worth: taking a big cap hit on Betts, losing a solid backup RB, paying Boldin a crap load of money, trading a 1st rounder and taking a chance that Boldin is going to be the "one thing" that our Offense needs to be productive.

How about starting with the damn O-Line?

[Abshir]

And I would throw in a bologna sandwich. Only if our FO was on their job.

[Veretax]

Sooo because of recent mediocre luck with trading receivers, we shouldn't trade again for any receiver, no matter what the benefit might be. Interesting.

Boldin's an absolute proven commodity, arguably a top 5 receiver in the league, especially given his age.

The NFL is a what have you done for me lately league. How many of you on paper last year would have said Kurt Warner was a better QB then JC or TC. How many would have said their WRs were better then Moss and ARE, I imagine about 85% of us would have said that. But when that talent was on the field, they failed to win that game

I don't know what you mean by "spend most of his time like Brandon Lloyd." Either you think he'll suck like Lloyd, or he'll start a rap career, or what, but the comparison alone points to you not knowing anything about Boldin's career or his playing style. As does the comment that he wouldn't fit into our offense.

I think we have a history of trading for players who end up not producing as much as they did at their last spot. We need to be VERY careful who we bring here. Are they here because they want to help us reach a SUper Bowl? Or are they here for the Pay Day. That is what I want to avoid. I would rather resign both Caldwell and McCardell as to trade a 1st and Betts for Boldin, he is not worth that much, and AZ is crazy if they think they would get that. We need to start drafting in the trenches with our early pick sor it'll be another 5 suffering years of mediocrity.

He's probably the most physical receiver in the league, you can't ask for more than that in a WCO, someone willing to go across the middle on shorter routes and take hits and still get YAC.

Now you are making stuff up? Is he more physical than Randy Moss? Terrel Owens? Chad Johnson, Larry Fitz, Roy Williams, etc? Boldin is a good WR I'm not disputing that but he certainly isn't worth a 1st Round pick even straight up.

Betts and a second rounder.

No trading the 1st rounder - PERIOD!

How about Betts and a 3rd Rounder, that I can agree with a lot more, but listen these rumors of a Boldin Trade are just rumors, it won't happen till next year aat worse.

Slappy, I'm glad someone on this board is being rational instead of me. Betts may not be our BEST back, but we need him, Rock and Mason aren't the answer, and if you trade him and a pick, you lose a great chance to draft his replacement. So no, I'm not for this trade, period. Lets not forget there could still be FA Rbs out there too.

[Roborob132]

Everyone knows I am not a Betts fan so in a heart beat I would do that. Shoot I would trade Betts for just about anyone.... ALMOST.. Anyone..

[Stew]

Stew, I'm not sure if you knew this or not but that same WR that you say is "young" is one year younger than the "27 or 28" year old Betts. If he was looking to step out of Portis' shadow, why would he have signed a new deal recently?

Your main knock on Betts is that he fumbles a lot.....

Ladell Betts:

rushing attempts - 659

receptions - 126

total times he's touched the ball - 785

number of times he's fumbled - 12

touches per fumble - 65.4

Anquan Boldin

rushing attemts - 24

receptions - 413

total times he's touched the ball - 437

number of times he's fumbled - 9

touches per fumble - 48.5

For being a RB and getting knocked around a heck of a lot more, Betts fumbles less per time he has the ball in his hands.

And come off it man. You act like I've been on Betts jock like McD5! I simply said that I don't think Betts and a #1 is worth Boldin. I don't think its a smart move for depth. Period.

A solid backup RB + a possible Pro Bowl DT, DE, OL or WR is not worth the possibility that Boldin's output in Washington will equal his output in Arizona.

BTW, thanks for bringing up E. James, that only backs up my previous point....He's excellent in Indy...gets traded...production drops off. You can't ALWAYS bank on the fact that just because someone is good for one team that they'll be good for another.

I'm starting to think that you just like Boldin because he's won you some FF games.:laugh: Maybe not, but I wouldn't be surpised.

My god man...at the rate I'm defending my opinion, I feel like I'm on Betts side to win a political office! I just don't see that its a great deal....too much money to pay him, too much to give up, too much in question to be sure. :2cents:

There's no reason to be a pri<k....besides, there's never been a report that Boldin is definitely going to leave Arizona. Plus we'd take a pretty good sized cap hit if we traded Betts, which only adds to the cost of this deal.

Also, what makes you so sure that the Cardinals even want Betts? If he isn't any too good and he is as replaceable as you say he is, why wouldn't they just find someone to put on their roster who is just as good? You act like they "need" him.

Comparing the fumbles between a WR and a RB is apples and oranges. Wide outs have to jump in the air to make most grabs and in doing so leave their body vulnerable and undefended, and sometimes take the hit from behind not even knowing its coming. A RB knows from the line of scrimmage he is going to get hit, and his body is tense and ready for that hit from the snap. Nice stats, and nice angle, nice try, but i dont bite on that.

You talk about Boldin not being a top 5 reciever and note his statistics, but you make no mention that he has been producing in a starting role while Larry Fitzgerald has been accross from his soaking up half of his potential production and Bryant Johnson in a supporting role taking even more looks from him. Are you one of those people that said "Dont just look at Hacketts stats!" Im not saying you are, but that line fits the bill in this situation more then in Hacketts situation.

Ok, so i have been riding you on this one, looking back it seems you were the only one in the thread at the same time as me giving me debate. I apologize for riding you on it, and about being a prick, I was at work and was getting a little punchy, i admit it and apologize, i guess i was feelig the heat you were putting back on me.

I think Arizona would want Betts because he is leaps and bounds better then Marcel Shipp and JJ Arington's forces combined, and Edge is a shell of the player he was in Indy. Ive never said Betts was a bad player, i just think we need to move him while he has value and while we have other players who can contribute. We can stash Mason on the practice squad for only so long before another teams see's that he has potential and steals him like the Hamburgaler from us. He could be another Derrick Ward from the Giants or Bradshaw.

Here is my Homer moment and comment. I think Boldin would have better numbers here because we have a better running game (yes, even without Betts on the sideline )that will take pressure off of the passing game and our O- line is better then Arizona and will give Campbell more time to complete passes to a reciever who has better size (Ive read he's 6'2'' btw, not 6'1'') and owns his space better then most recievers in the league and better then any reciever we have. I also like Campbell and Collins better then i do Leinart or Old Pop Warner.

Ok, i see your points but in response to them i think: Getting any value for Betts is better then letting him wilt on the vine that is the bench, while Rock (and Mason to a lesser extent)wilts there too and he can give similer output in production, I think the Betts cap hit in trading him can be compensated by a few more restructures (though i will concede, i dont know who is left that we can restructure so you may zap me here, or i may be pleasently surprised). What do you think the contract for the #21 pick will be? They keep getting bigger and bigger for rookies. Subtract whatever number you have in your head from the gigantic number you think Boldin would get here, and thats the real amount of the contract. We could sign a complete bust at #21 and pay him Millions, or invest that money into a proven Vet that has had to fight tooth and nail for the stats that he has. What makes Boldin the complete package besides his numbers, is the personality in the locker room, and off the field, that other players of his caliber dont have. I also think inserting Boldin into our line up gives the rest of the recievers (including Cooley) a new dynamic.

Ok, im stepping down from the soap box. Sorry again for getting all riled up. but all you gotta do is call me on it and as long as im not personally offended or mad about the conversation, i have no trouble apologizing. It can be hard to convey and proporly read sentiment and intent on a message board, again i think we both felt a little attacked and i probably shouldnt have caught feelings over our debate. My bad, can ya forgive me Slappy? I mean, we obviously would take a different approach to the offseason, but you do put up a good debate and i just needed to be knocked down a peg... for some perspective, ya know? I mean no harm dispite how i sound, but you are right, and my girlfriend agrees with you, I am a prick.

Oh yeah, and you arent near as bad as McD5, but i think that is really Betts himself, and I never pick Boldin OR Fitz in FF b/c they take away from the other productivity, (the spawn of my thought process comes out!) I drafted Peyton First, then Randy, then Maroney (bad pick), then Portis, and THEN A. Peterson of the Vikes. I did win my league too, but no Arizona players until I got Bryant as a FA mid season.

[slappy434]

Comparing the fumbles between ......

(Removed for size reasons)

......... as a FA mid season.

All jobs will make anyone punchy from time to time. No harm, no foul. I don't mind it, dude. It is hard to convey most things in plain text. No big deal. The odd thing is -- until I saw multiple people bashing me for asking who would backup Portis, I was never really on Betts' side of this thing. I'm a Portis fan first and foremost. I just think Betts is a solid backup and I don't think Mason or Rock would do as good. Admittedly though, I haven't paid the utmost attention to either of them so they could be better than him in the long run.

As for the fumble thing...I just looked that up because that was your main problem with Betts. I was only comparing since a RB gets hit and abused more often, regardless of the fact that he knows he's gonna get hit. I do however agree - he fumbles more than I'd like. I do think he's pretty solid though and I'm in on the ship of continuity. Thats part of the reason I think he's valuable.

Also, I do understand that Fitz has taken a lot away from what Boldin could do...but thats just it - its his "potential" that people are enamored with. I have always said that he'd help us, no doubting that -- he's great in space, gets alot of yards, he's physical and doesn't carry baggage.

Arizona could definitely use Betts. But again, for the same reason you say that Edge is a shell of himself now, I worry that the same could happen with Boldin. If we had a recievers coach who had a track record of making mediocre recievers elite, I'd have no doubts about him on our team and I'd be all for this trade. It just seems too risky to me. The draft is risky though too, you've got a good point. So...I guess looking back on my own opinion its kind of a crap-shoot all the way around.

And don't worry about getting riled up man. I do the same thing...clearly. If you're strong in your opinions, you're going to get heated from time to time. I forgive you, but just know that I didnt' take any offense to it anyways. I apologize too if I came off in a bad way, didn't mean to.

So here's to waiting and seeing IF this supposed trade rumor even has any substance to it.

Edit: After thinking about it...this board would be pretty boring if people didn't get heated now and then.

So, here's to argument and agreement :laugh::laugh::laugh: