Why do we need universal healthcare?

[Koolblue13]

Ok, Healthcare isn't a right, it's a priviledge. Our government isn't there to provide for us, it's soul job is to protect us.

One of the main reasons people who can pay for healthcare who don't have healthcare isn't because they Can't afford it, it's becuase they choose other things over providing it for themselves or their families.

So lets take an example, we can call it ME. I make about 30k. I have a few bills to pay, education, truck payment, rent. I also pay the minimum on over 10 different medical bills that will never go away.

At the end of the month, I have maybe $250 to spend on anything, at most.

I had health care from MEGA that cost me around $362 a month for a while, but dropped it because I was paying them more then they covered from my two injuries.

So what am I choosing to pay for with my $250 (that is a generous number) that I shouldn't? No car=no work. If I pay for HC, I won't have food or gas.

So am I somebody who is choosing to not pay for it, because I don't want to?

[helptheSKINS]

Percent of overweight people in world. We are pretty high. Leads to a lot of health issues. Point is that there are a lot of things that can raise health costs. We are a VERY unhealty country.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/07/worlds-fattest-countries-forbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat_2.html

[JMS]

Percent of overweight people in world. We are pretty high. Leads to a lot of health issues. Point is that there are a lot of things that can raise health costs. We are a VERY unhealty country.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/02/07/worlds-fattest-countries-forbeslife-cx_ls_0208worldfat_2.html

No we are not very unhealthy compared to the rest of the world.. We are median unhealthy. or median healthy. Not as healthy as Japanese, but healthier than many European countries.

http://www.photius.com/rankings/population/median_age_male_2006_0.html

We are fatter than everybody else, but we have median heart, circulatory, and cancer rates. I posted all of this earlier in this thread.

We also as a population are younger than most of the rest of the industrialized world. Our population thanks to massive immigration is still growing while most of the outher countries in the first world are seeing their economies shrinking.

American's do not recieve more health care services than everybody else in the world. Our healthcare costs are just larger than everybody elses.

[JosephGibbs]

I came into this thread without a real opinion on this issue. I took an objections to one of portis points that because a country can afford it, they should pay more. I took objection to it because i knew he wouldnt stick to it in all products.

That said, your posts have been great. That last post showed alot and is really helping me grasp this issue.

I come from a wealthy family and should have healthcare for as long as i live, but that doesnt mean i am blind to this huge problem. When i go to the doc to get my throat looked at, i get a 400 dollar bill. Luckily the insurance picks it up.

But i know there are millions in the country without the insurance and I know 400 dollars for what the doc did, aint worth it.

Good work in this thread.

I have seen a couple posts already that state these dollar amounts. You do realize that the insurance company does not even come close to paying that amount to medical professionals. They might reimburse your doctor 50%, at most. Often times medical professionals jack up their "pay out of pocket prices" because a) they know people rarely pay out of pocket and they know, they will be getting a fraction of the return. Medicare reimbursment (outpatient services anyway) is the worst.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back online after I stirred up some debate, but i think you all took care of it.

Let me ask this question though: I'm sure everyone realizes that their health care insurance comes out of their paycheck. Whether directly, or whether its passed on to the employee by a lower salary, the employee is paying their health care. If the "higher taxes" some people here keep asserting they are going to have to pay, are still less than the cost of private insurance to you, AND if you could get the same or better care, how many of you still would not want universal health care?

[JMS]

Sorry it took so long for me to get back online after I stirred up some debate, but i think you all took care of it.

Let me ask this question though: I'm sure everyone realizes that their health care insurance comes out of their paycheck. Whether directly, or whether its passed on to the employee by a lower salary, the employee is paying their health care. If the "higher taxes" some people here keep asserting they are going to have to pay, are still less than the cost of private insurance to you, AND if you could get the same or better care, how many of you still would not want universal health care?

Most companies pay for healthcare and only pass on some of the expenses to their employees. Some of the largest advocates for Universal coverage is the auto industry. Paying for healthcare for their employees and retiree's which is increasing double or triple the rate of inflation for the last 30 years is crushing their compeditiveness.

[81artmonk]

I've said that many times. It doesn't fly

I know, it's because the vast majority of people in this country look to the government as a hand out rather than something else.

[81artmonk]

Yeah our government isn't there to actually serve the people. Our government is literally looking out for the corporations...

You know when American drugs are sold in Canada they sell for 50% cheaper right. Our government outlawed American citizens form going to Canada in order to purchase US drugs for .50$ on the dollar..

That's the free market for you!!

Yeah it's not like 50% of all people who filed for bankrupcy sited healthcare costs as a reason.. :doh:

It's not like America's biggest employer walmart hands out medicaid applications with their job applications.. ( four of the forbes 20 richest people in the country own Wallmart. )

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/54/richlist07_The-400-Richest-Americans_Rank.html

I'm sure you're right though... all those guys can afford it.

you sort of made me point for me. The vast majority of people who filed for bankrupcy I'm sure did so due to what........credit card debt? Over extending themselves??

Doing what with those credit cards?? Buying stuff they couldn't afford? That's my point. People will go out and purchase a plasma tv with HD programming and the lastest DVD surround sound equipment, over taking that money and investing in a healthcare plan.

They will keep the cable and the starbucks coffee every morning and lunch out everyday instead of taking that money and investing in a healthcare plan.

They will go out and buy that big SUV they've wanted for years with a payment that will stress thier paycheck rather than doing the same thing with a healthcare plan.

It's choices, and most people choose not to get healthcare.

The walmart arguement just doesn't fly. those people choose to work there. They know what they are getting into and still choose to work there. If they don't want to work there, they can go somewhere else.

[81artmonk]

So lets take an example, we can call it ME. I make about 30k. I have a few bills to pay, education, truck payment, rent. I also pay the minimum on over 10 different medical bills that will never go away.

At the end of the month, I have maybe $250 to spend on anything, at most.

I had health care from MEGA that cost me around $362 a month for a while, but dropped it because I was paying them more then they covered from my two injuries.

So what am I choosing to pay for with my $250 (that is a generous number) that I shouldn't? No car=no work. If I pay for HC, I won't have food or gas.

So am I somebody who is choosing to not pay for it, because I don't want to?

If that is truely your case than you should be covered by medicade. I don't mean to seem mean, but what caused you to have those medical bills. NO healthcare plan??

What prevented you from getting healthcare prior to your injuries?? If what you say is true, than you should be covered partially or all by government assistance.

[DjTj]

It's choices, and most people choose not to get healthcare.

Even if this were true, what are the financial consequences of these people not choosing to get healthcare?

WE end up paying for it.

If they declare bankruptcy, that means their creditors don't get the money, and rates will rise for the rest of us (or, like in our current credit crisis, we will have high inflation). If they avoid getting treatment until things get really bad, we will end up paying for their emergency room care. If they avoid treatment until they are really out of money, we end up paying for them through Medicaid. If they avoid treatment until they are 65, we end up paying for them through Medicare.

The reality is that we are already paying for these people. One option would be to bring back debtor's prisons, turn away people in emergency rooms, and cancel Medicare and Medicaid, but having sick and dying people in the streets just isn't going to fly in the 21st century. You're going to pay for these people one way or another. Why not force them to contribute through taxation, before they can go out and buy that TV?

[helptheSKINS]

I know, it's because the vast majority of people in this country look to the government as a hand out rather than something else.

It's called Socialism. I'm amazed how many people want it on this site. So many complain about the govt doing wire taps because it's too intrusive but they have no problem with the govt handling their healthcare. The main purpose of the govt is to protect it's people. They try to do so with the wiretapping and get reamed. Meanwhile the same people complain that the govt isn't involved enough with their healthcare.

This ball will keep rolling and our taxes will get higher and higher. I posted a link earlier to the tax rates of many socialized country's. It's not pretty but it will be ignored because it doesn't help the liberal cause. Socailism is seen as a way for people to avoid responsibility on as many issues as possible. Once our taxes are over 50%, the complaining will turn around. I'm still waiting to hear how much this will cost us. JMS keeps saying we can afford it but can't give a number on how much it will cost. Obama said $50-$65 billion :laugh: . He said he'll pay for most of that amount by ending the Bush tax cuts. How about the other $100's of billions. It's truly amazing.

[Koolblue13]

If that is truely your case than you should be covered by medicade. I don't mean to seem mean, but what caused you to have those medical bills. NO healthcare plan??

What prevented you from getting healthcare prior to your injuries?? If what you say is true, than you should be covered partially or all by government assistance.

I was paying well over $300 a month for MEGA insurance. I slipped while sledding and broke my leg, ankle and foot. Tore my ligements and tendon, had surgery and screws put into my ankle(that have since broken and need to be removed because they are coming out anyway). I had the insurance for a few years.

They covered $5000 and I was left with about $12,000.

I had a biopsy done for my heartburn. They covered $110, I payed $1,100.

I canceled my insurance.

I got Lymes disease from a tick bite. I'm not sure of the total cost, but after going to two emergency rooms and three doctors, they figured out what was wrong and it cost me around $6,000. I also had a CAT scan because of a minor stroke from the Lymes.

I didn't want medicade, because I thought of it like welfare and wanted to pay for it myself.

When I had the Lymes, it put me into a zombie like state and my bills got away from me and now I can't catch up.

I used to have more money, but I tryed to change careers and it didn't work out.

Also, in 87' when my Mom had cancer, my high school teacher father, with good insurance, was so overwhelmed with bills and grief from her death, we lost our house.

[Koolblue13]

Most companies pay for healthcare and only pass on some of the expenses to their employees. Some of the largest advocates for Universal coverage is the auto industry. Paying for healthcare for their employees and retiree's which is increasing double or triple the rate of inflation for the last 30 years is crushing their compeditiveness.

If the health care costs were handled correctly and came down, we could still have Americans making our cars. It would drastically improve our economy.

I read somewhere that GM averages $1,200 per car in insurances are payed to retired workers.

[pjfootballer]

You guys can use charts, graphs and quote WHO stats all you want, but you guys sound just like the politicians. I think that they should all spend 1 week with me or anyone else who has to deal with it on a daily basis to get a real idea of how it is.

By the way, there are laws in this country (IMTALA) that say a hospital has to treat you in the ER no matter if you have insurance or not.

More reality. People have come into my hospital and because of their condition, I determine whether or not they will qualify for a disability. I see some people who think that a bad back is a disability or their lumbago is acting up. They are the lazy asses clogging up the disability system.

Anyway. I have had people come in with metastatic cancer who will not qualify for a disability because 1) they get too much money from an early SS retirement, 2) they own too much property that they worked hard all their life to get, 3) they have too much in their 401K or 4) they have credit cards.

I had a guy that said he sold off a mountain home, various cars and property that he worked hard as a self employed businessman (paid into the system) to pay off medical debts because private health insurance would cost him $2,000/mo. I see people who are approved for a disability try to live off $800/mo SS. And god forbid you make more than $851/mo in SS: that means you are over the income limits for MEDICAID. Now, you've been determined disable, but you don't qualify for the Medicaid that you need to stay alive. AND, you don't qualify for MEDICARE until 2 years after you Date of Onset for the disability.

So in essence, you can be determined disabled in this country and NOT qualify for medical coverage. Ain't that a b****! And everyone says there's NOTHING wrong with our healthcare system.

Wrong. MEDICARE is for elderly that have paid into the system over the age of 65 and/or anyone who has been disabled for 2 years or more. MEDICAID (2 different things here) is for anyone aged 1-64 who qualifies under the income and asset limits per the state that they live in. You pay for Medicaid through your state and federal taxes and Medicare through FICA.

I see people everyday in my job. I work at a hospital and I help the UNDERINSURED/UNINSURED apply for county, state and federal programs so the hospital gets paid. You'd be surprised at how many people don't work/refuse to work/claim they're disable/disabled/don't make enough money and are not offered healthcare through an employer.

I see 45 and 50 year old men, unemployed for 5 years living with their 75 year old mother. I see a single mom working at Hardee's because the deadbeat dad doesn't pay child support/provide them with health ins. I don't want to use this word, but I have to, because I really think you and others are ignorant to the problems. Believe me, I have more expertise then alot of you. It's my job. And yes, there are the occasional people who COULD afford health insurance, but choose not to.

Also, there are people out there that make enough to pay their bills, but if they took out health insurance, it could mean they go without food, elec. or gas. Family plans for health insurance take a chunk out of your pay.

Another dose of reality for those of you who think Medicare pays for everything when you are over 65. IT DOESN'T. I get referrals all the time for Medicare recipients to apply for Medicaid as a supplement.

Also, You get up to 60 days for each hospital stay. Once the 60 days is up, you go into the next 60 days of lifetime reserve. Now, if you stay in the hospital for 50 days, then are discharged and then are readmitted within 30 days, the number starts at 50. If you are readmitted after 30 days, then the number starts at 1 again. Once you use your lifetime reserve under Medicare, you lose them for life. Meaning, once you are in the hospital for over 60 days, you pay $1100 a day towards your bill unless you have Medicaid or private insurance as a secondary.

COLD reality dudes!

Just thought I'd bring a little human perspective back into the conversation. I see the uninsured every day. I've had 2 grown men cry in front of me within the last week, because they were embarrassed to not have any insurance.

[Koolblue13]

Just thought I'd bring a little human perspective back into the conversation. I see the uninsured every day. I've had 2 grown men cry in front of me within the last week, because they were embarrassed to not have any insurance.

Thanks. I tried.

[81artmonk]

Even if this were true, what are the financial consequences of these people not choosing to get healthcare?

WE end up paying for it.

If they declare bankruptcy, that means their creditors don't get the money, and rates will rise for the rest of us (or, like in our current credit crisis, we will have high inflation). If they avoid getting treatment until things get really bad, we will end up paying for their emergency room care. If they avoid treatment until they are really out of money, we end up paying for them through Medicaid. If they avoid treatment until they are 65, we end up paying for them through Medicare.

The reality is that we are already paying for these people. One option would be to bring back debtor's prisons, turn away people in emergency rooms, and cancel Medicare and Medicaid, but having sick and dying people in the streets just isn't going to fly in the 21st century. You're going to pay for these people one way or another. Why not force them to contribute through taxation, before they can go out and buy that TV?

You make a few good points, however, in a nut shell you basically saying that people are going to be irresponsible losers so why not just pony up the money rather than allow them to suffer the consequences and cost us who are responsible.

I kind of liken that arguement to, well, my kids are going to drink at parties so I might as well, let them drink here in my own home where I can observe them and make sure they are safe. One irresponsible act doesn't equal another.

The problem you have with covering everyone, is that those who have will be harmed in the sense of either losing their exsisting coverage or having their premiums go up to pay for the have-nots and good doctors will not work for the government program, so that leaves your have-nots with lousy coverage and care. How exactly wil that help??

[81artmonk]

It's called Socialism. I'm amazed how many people want it on this site. So many complain about the govt doing wire taps because it's too intrusive but they have no problem with the govt handling their healthcare. The main purpose of the govt is to protect it's people. They try to do so with the wiretapping and get reamed. Meanwhile the same people complain that the govt isn't involved enough with their healthcare.

This ball will keep rolling and our taxes will get higher and higher. I posted a link earlier to the tax rates of many socialized country's. It's not pretty but it will be ignored because it doesn't help the liberal cause. Socailism is seen as a way for people to avoid responsibility on as many issues as possible. Once our taxes are over 50%, the complaining will turn around. I'm still waiting to hear how much this will cost us. JMS keeps saying we can afford it but can't give a number on how much it will cost. Obama said $50-$65 billion :laugh: . He said he'll pay for most of that amount by ending the Bush tax cuts. How about the other $100's of billions. It's truly amazing.

Dude, you are so right!! The sad thing is, as long as it means freebie stuff or money, the government can intrude all they want. But leave me alone and don't listen in on my phone conversations.

The fact remains that the left have so ingrained this healthcare is a right phrase, that everyone believes it. Why do you think people hate the rich!! The let's tax the rich and tax cuts are for the rich, are all going back to our government needs to even the playing field. Give me something too.

Joe rich guy has healthcare, why can't I. Hey why not make the government give it to us. Plain craziness

[81artmonk]

I was paying well over $300 a month for MEGA insurance. I slipped while sledding and broke my leg, ankle and foot. Tore my ligements and tendon, had surgery and screws put into my ankle(that have since broken and need to be removed because they are coming out anyway). I had the insurance for a few years.

They covered $5000 and I was left with about $12,000.

I had a biopsy done for my heartburn. They covered $110, I payed $1,100.

I canceled my insurance.

I got Lymes disease from a tick bite. I'm not sure of the total cost, but after going to two emergency rooms and three doctors, they figured out what was wrong and it cost me around $6,000. I also had a CAT scan because of a minor stroke from the Lymes.

I didn't want medicade, because I thought of it like welfare and wanted to pay for it myself.

When I had the Lymes, it put me into a zombie like state and my bills got away from me and now I can't catch up.

I used to have more money, but I tryed to change careers and it didn't work out.

Also, in 87' when my Mom had cancer, my high school teacher father, with good insurance, was so overwhelmed with bills and grief from her death, we lost our house.

Sorry for your ills. I'm not touching this one as I will only come out looking like the bad guy.