The TC vs. JC debate and it's wider connotations

[Gigantor]

Nice try. You're fallacy attacking fans who question JC is crystal clear, you can't spin it.

[bobzmuda]

Nice try. You're fallacy attacking fans who question JC is crystal clear, you can't spin it.

What is it with people on this board not directly responding to a question?

I'll pose the question again.

Where do you get that I say people are trolls if they don't blindly support JC?

There's a marked difference between the folks who believe Collins is playing well and the folks who go to great lengths to disparage Campbell. The former are more likely fans of the team, and the latter are likely trolls in feather head-dresses.

Do you really equate someone who goes to "great lengths to disparage Campbell" to someone "who doesn't blindly support JC?"

I don't see how you could - the two are worlds apart. It's one thing to think JC is or isn't a potential viable long-term solution at QB. It's another thing entirely to go on and on about how he lacks any redeeming qualities whatsoever (i.e. going great lengths to disparage him).

It's not a nice try at anything. There's a clear demarcation between those who acknowledge that Collins is playing well and that Campbell has deficiencies and those who seem a bit obsessive-compulsive over disparaging a player that isn't even relevant at the moment (i.e. FanSinceSonnyJ).

For all I know you are FanSinceSonnyJ's parachute account.

[gkekoa]

I agree with much of what you said except JC should not start in the playoffs because of cohesion with the WRs and the future implications. JC has his job back from day one next year and we will all be excitied. Resign Collins for about 2 million/year for two more years and allow him to teach a young back up.

[GeoLeo]

You know Joe Gibbs is keeping Todd Collins as the starting QB as long as the team keeps winning. If the 'Skins win all their playoff games and win the Super Bowl (sure hope so) with Collins as Qb, then Coach Gibbs has a decision to make. Will Collins be the starting QB next season or will it be Campbell? This scenario could happen. And would you believe there would be a QB controversy if this scenario actually happened?

[SoCalSkins]

Well maybe I'm the one to answer this since I am a moderate on this Campbell/Collins issue.

There should be no isulting of Campbell, its his first year starting and it has had highlights, growing pains, and a more than healthy progression.

This is where most calling JC a franchise QB or QB of the future are mistaken. Look at the facts. He is a 3rd year player and has started more NFL games than Todd Collins has. Before this year, Todd never started a game in Saunders offense. JC is not a rookie. If he is, then so it Todd. If Todd can learn in practice, then JC should be able to do the same if he in fact is the better QB.

As far as JC progressing. He started his NFL career 2-5 to end 06. He led the Skins to a 4-2 record, then completely regressed. He finished the year 1-5. If you want to talk about individual stats, he leads the NFL in fumbles. He has 12 TD's to 19 INTs/Fumbles lost. He has a mediocre 77 passer rating. He also constantly throws the ball high exposing our WR's to hits they shouldn't be taking and preventing YAC.

If you want to talk about intangibles, winners want the ball when the game is on the line. JC has had opportunities to audible to either run it himself or audible to a pass from a run in several crucial 4th down plays and has decided to put the ball in someone else's hand. He has also thrown atrocious picks to end the Dallas and Tampa games. He has yet to bring a team back to win, but has led the team to the most losses after having the lead at half.

The fact is the Skins offense under Saunders has never looked as good as it has the past 3 weeks. Hopefully JC will master the offense at some point, but based on his play, he is far from ready.

[Ghost of]

There are no wider 'connotations.'

That whole post was just your way of saying you don't like what some people are saying and they shouldn't do that or that you'll call them ignorant and not hang around anymore.

Thing is, there have ALWAYS been people who spoke too harshly about a player. There have ALWAYS been rational critics and there have also been those who hate irrationally. This is definitely NOT a new phenomenon. Nor are the 'homer vs pessimist' threads, even in seasons where we go 6-10 or 5-11. Nor has there ever been a dearth of "the coaches are professionals and know more than you" threads or "the coaches are all idiots and even though I misread the formation, still, these guys suck" threads.

Everyone thinks that whatever is troubling them about this board at this particular moment is the epic conflict of our Extremeskins lives and that the arguments we have here represent anything other than what happens on sports fora. Even when an argument has been 'settled,' it gets reawakened and the battle begins anew.

And don't think I'm attacking you. We've probably all been there, save a few patient-as-saints souls.

There will be people who step over lines. But you've got to ignore those people. That said, what is 'over the line' for some is ANY criticism or ANY hope or optimism. Those are the people who are the problem, not the ones who express hope or criticism in a generally constructive and sincere way.

[Redskins4ever]

Todd Collins is playing great. And with Gibbs having always had a preference for veteran QBs, and with Collins playing as good as he is, I don't see Gibbs pulling him, even if Campbell is ready to come back. I do believe that if your QB has thrown 4 TDs, 0 INTs, is completing 60% of his passes, has a QB rating of 107.0, and has 687 yards passing in three games, then taking him out of the game and replacing him with a sometimes consistent young QB isn't the way to go.

[Jaded-Dragon]

I'm a JC supporter, I feel that it is because of Jason's efforts that we were even in most of the games this season. That being said, even if JC gets healthy, at this point I would say you have to keep TC in the game. He is on fire and it is giving JC a chance to view the offense as it should be. I think this time can be used by JC to realize the mistakes he has been making and see what he needs to do to correct them.

JC has made a lot of progress this year. He's far from perfect, but he is getting better. If you can't see that, then I am sorry. He is playing much better than most first year starters, and in a world where the Redskins get no respect at all, every broadcaster in America goes on and on about how much he has improved and how he will be very good one day. Even Troy freaking Aikman can see it.

[Doctor ToughLove]

Yea i agree with you on that, those little things is actually huge, Campbell tends to overthrow WRs at times, those out patterns Collins was hittin was just enough for the WRs to adjust to stay in bounds and make a play, I think JC would have just been a little off to where the WRs wouldnt have been able to make the play and stay in bounds cause he doesent put nice touches on the balls and puts in too much arm!! Third downs, those mis plays right there is huge as far as keeping the drive alive!!

Yeah and in the playoffs it will be even more crucial. It's all about fine tuning. People get nutty about Jason being better. It's not that Jason isn't as good as Todd. It's that he is not as far along in his progression as Todd. It's all about fine tuning. Todd has the tune. Jason is still tuning up.

What do you think of the Seattle matchup? It's a pretty good draw don't you think?

[wpenn1]

Sadly, this makes me think there's another reason for their blind support of JC...

Please do tell

[ttr77]

I, for one, am getting tired of reading in many posts how the entire team has stepped up since Collins took over. The playcalling, the OL, the RBs, the WRs and the defense are all playing better - so that's why this team is winning.

If this is truly the case, then perhaps Collins knows how to make the others around him better. Perhaps he shows in practice that he can handle more of the offense. Those that say the rest of the team has stepped up must think that either there is some vast conspiracy against JC or he that does not bring out the best in his teammates.

Either way, until JC can show that he can bring out the best in his teammates and show that he can handle the entire offense, he needs to sit. This team, with its veterans and coaching staff, is built to win NOW. And they are doing so, with Collins. They need to ride it as far as they can. Including an open competition for the starting job next year.

[ross3909]

Well maybe I'm the one to answer this since I am a moderate on this Campbell/Collins issue.

There should be no isulting of Campbell, its his first year starting and it has had highlights, growing pains, and a more than healthy progression. Todd has been better and that needs to be admitted instead of excused by circumstance. But nothing that is not beyond Campbells eventual progression (but lets not pretend he is a young Marino or Roethlisberger being wasted on the bench while Collins merely does what Campbell would have done anyway)

Collins helps the offensive line by staying in the pocket better - the better performance of the offensive line is not a coincidence. He's quicker with his reads, has missed the open man less, and gets rid of the ball quicker - the better performance of the receivers is also not a coincindence. And Collins has made far less mistakes - and that is huge in a Joe Gibbs system.You are right that this difference is far less than it appears. Collins is not a miracle worker. Its just that we are getting a lot of milage out of that little bit of difference. And that difference is vital right now. It is what has allowed the Redskins to sustain drives, keep the defense off the field, which has doubled the defenses potency. The defenses production is not a coincidence either and is a by product of Collins' sustained drives. Let's not pretend the stars aligned for Collins (and not for Campbell). The first few years of a QBs career are usually the most insignificant of his career. If Joe Montana can sit on the bench three year then Campbell can sit out one post season and that's no insult.

The good news is this team was this close, to being this good all along, and *when* Campbell's progression continues this team will be at least this good. But Campbell is not there now and is not going to be as unpracticed as he is and with a month out of practice due to injury. This is about 1 game now & the next weeks - and the best shot is Collins. Heck one offseason and 10 games later Campbell may be rounding the corner and blowing everyone away. He's that close, but not now.

Totally agree, well said. Right now Collins is the best QB we have, healthy or not. Next year, open competition. This game is about winning not protecting ego's, let JC earn his starting job.

[GamaGoliath]

Good thread, but it's almost comical to see JC supporters come up with all kinds of excuses for his performance.

The most troubling aspect for me is the fans that say it's too early to judge Campbell based on his past performance because he hasn't played enough games, yet they go ahead and conclude that he is "the future". :doh:

Sadly, this makes me think there's another reason for their blind support of JC...

Why don't you stop tap dancing around it? Grow a pair and say what's really on your mind.

The thing is, a lot of the more level headed posters predicted last year that Campbell would have an up and down season. A lot of people here want our QB to be putting up all star numbers in his first full season as the starter. I do too, but that's not being realistic. Campbell has done well in flashes, but his failure to bring the wins is not completely his fault. Does he share in the blame? Absolutely. Should he bear all of the blame? No way in hell does he deserve that. His supporting cast hasn't helped all that much. Injuries, poor performances on both sides of the ball, and down right putrid play calling are all factors here. If Gibbs wasn't content to sit on top of small leads in the second half of games, I doubt that much of this would be an issue at all. Putting your inexperienced QB in a position that he has to come from behind to win a lot of these games is not a good practice.

I think that Campbell is going to be fine as long as he is given a chance to develop properly. The last thing that I want to see is us throwing a player away, only to see him go somewhere else and blow up. :2cents:

[fansince62]

while the tenor of your post is moderate and reasonable...I have two MAJOR disputes with the ideas that lie behind it:

- it is precisely because there is complexity in the underlying process that you encounter vociferous and sometimes combative responses. too many think they provide "football" analysis when in fact they don't....they just toss in random emotions and assertions.

- there is the emotion (the committment) you speak to - which all fans should demo - and there is the assessment process of what is going on. two different things that folks forever confuse.

As an aside, since others have already opened this can of worms (again) in this thread...I personally find the TC advocacy threads hopelessly single minded, simplistic and Janet Jackson like (what have you done for me lately). In truth...these people are the real haters - and it is pathetic - masquerading as "Skins fans" who only want to win. They are short-sighted, insular thinkers who bring little to the table.

So how's that for the warm and fuzzy you are after? Apologies....I realize it's not what you are seeking ...and I agree...in principle....with the sentiments behind your post. That said..the JC haters ("Skins fans/footballanalysts")...are reaping what they have sown. They are the ones who are depressingly negative and obtuse when it comes to analysis.

otherwise...have a happy New Year and a great Sunday!

[fansince62]

Why don't you stop tap dancing around it? Grow a pair and say what's really on your mind.

The thing is, a lot of the more level headed posters predicted last year that Campbell would have an up and down season. A lot of people here want our QB to be putting up all star numbers in his first full season as the starter. I do too, but that's not being realistic. Campbell has done well in flashes, but his failure to bring the wins is not completely his fault. Does he share in the blame? Absolutely. Should he bear all of the blame? No way in hell does he deserve that. His supporting cast hasn't helped all that much. Injuries, poor performances on both sides of the ball, and down right putrid play calling are all factors here. If Gibbs wasn't content to sit on top of small leads in the second half of games, I doubt that much of this would be an issue at all. Putting your inexperienced QB in a position that he has to come from behind to win a lot of these games is not a good practice.

I think that Campbell is going to be fine as long as he is given a chance to develop properly. The last thing that I want to see is us throwing a player away, only to see him go somewhere else and blow up. :2cents:

exactly. and even more to the point...either JC is the future or he is not. the idea that folks are willing to toss him on the scrap pile after just 3 games for a career nobody who is doing nothing more than managing games that the defense is really controlling is amazing.

I have no problem with folks shouting for TC to stay in while the streak is in tact. but the notion that he is largely responsible for the win streak...or more importantly...is the future of this franchise...is mindblowing. it is astoundng the large segments of this community that lurch from one point-of-view to another at the drop of a football....simply astounding.

[ceviker]

You make some good points, but you could also look at it the other way around.

What if Todd Collins was the starter before the season started? What if he took all the reps, practiced with all the starters, started running the offense since pre-season. Imagine how could he could have been. I'm not saying that's necesarilly true - I'm just saying there's two sides to every story.

What is a fact is that since Collins has been playing, the team is on fire, Collins is playing lights out football, and we're winning. Maybe Jason could do the same with the current team, maybe we would have won by a larger margin if he was in; or maybe he'd make mistakes and we would have lost one of those games, we don't know.

And because we don't know what JC would have done, we have to stick with what we do know - Todd Collins. If Todd gets in trouble in the Dallas game and/or playoff game(s), yeah ok, put JC in there.

But the last thing we need is for us to put JC in there and for him to be the reason we lose the game. Because once you put JC in there, there's no going back to Collins (baring injury of course). That would kill any confidence in him.

And next year and for year's after that, it's JC's team.

[ttr77]

I have no problem with folks shouting for TC to stay in while the streak is in tact. but the notion that he is largely responsible for the win streak...or more importantly...is the future of this franchise...is mindblowing.

I don't think anyone truly thinks that Collins is the future. But there is no proof that Campbell is either. The only thing he has going for him is potential. The NFL Scrap Heap is full of players that never hit their potential. Saying that he is definitely the future of this team is no more correct at this point than saying Collins is.

[ttr77]

And next year and for year's after that, it's JC's team.

Only if he earns it. No player on this team should be automatically given a starting position. Competition usually breeds success.

[Cyber Pimp]

If it does mess with Jason's psyche, I think it will be in a good way. I remember a bad game during his junior year at Auburn, the crowd was chanting for the back-up quarterback. It just made JC more determined to work harder to show everyone that he deserved the starting position.

As big a JC supporter as I am, I agree with the posters who want TC to start when the skins make the playoffs. He has the timing of the offense. The team is hitting on all cylinders right now. And I don't want Jason back in the game unless he is 100% healthy and risk further injury.

This isnt good at all. I have a feeling history will repeat itself at Fed Ex fields.

[onnie007]

Well said. I say stay with TC but make sure JC is getting reps in practice. We may need both in the playoffs. And start JC next year.

[PigSkinRodeo]

JC is the future.. And it ticks me off about are fans sometimes always not happy with this and that.. JC was having his first starting season.. He made a couple mistakes his o line got banged up Moss was dropping catches at the begining of the season.. Both moss and Randle El were having hamstrings .

He just needs a little help to tweak his game and he'll be fine.. Only thing he needs is a little more time of pocket protection and to throw the ball a little lower and not over there heads sometimes.. He's still learning and i'm proud of him.. Also look at the way everybody treated portis this year you people you know who you are disguse me at times. Myself and some others on this site have stuck up and been supportive for him... He's done great for not playing preseason or playing much last season.. You be just blow me away.. Trade portis cause he got 96 yards his first game and not over a 100 +.. Or portis fumbled or whatever... Now all you trash talkers thing portis is great... You people really need to get a grip.. You people are treat JC just like portis..

This team has gone through so much.. Support as a team not a indiviual.

If you people think you could do so much better why don't you get your skinny or fat ass up and go do it..

Other than that support The Redskins.. :2cents:

[fansince62]

I don't think anyone truly thinks that Collins is the future. But there is no proof that Campbell is either. The only thing he has going for him is potential. The NFL Scrap Heap is full of players that never hit their potential. Saying that he is definitely the future of this team is no more correct at this point than saying Collins is.

ttr77...liked and support your previous post...here's where I'm coming from:

it doesn't matter! the team made the decision once it traded picks and signed him to a first round contract that he was the hand that was dealt as far as QB is concerned. FROM AN INVESTMENT POV - they have to follow through on the entire process:

- develop his mechanics

- improve his understanding/knowledge of the game

- groom his study habits

- put him under the gun in games

- build his confidence

- build the trust of his teammates

- groom his leadership skills

- position him for success

The team is committed to this...or they have made yet another idiotic, wasteful business move. They have to play this hand out to determine the true value of their asset and to earn some return on their investment. otherwise, from the point-of-view of roster management and Enterprise (i.e., team) development....it was a mistake. I assert this on the assumption that almost ALL teams in the NFL have their high draft QBs on the field and leading their teams by the fourth season. If JC cannot do this...then somewhere along the line (either Jason, his teammates, coaches, or personnel managers) a horrible, horrible error has been made...that will cost this team yet again more years in "rebuilding".

Collins is doing fine for the moment. He is not making mistakes and he is capitalizing on opportunities the defense is providing and he is benefitting from a receiving corps that is FINALLY playing to potential. but, IMO, he is doing NOTHING....NOTHING...JC can't do. Moreover, I return to the FACT that so far this season...the single best offensive game this team has had was with JC at the helm.....not TC. JC simply is not that far away......put him on the bench and he is tubed. You just don't do that to your first round slection in his fourth season unless something has gone terribly awry.

[ttr77]

Collins is doing fine for the moment. He is not making mistakes and he is capitalizing on opportunities the defense is providing and he is benefitting from a receiving corps that is FINALLY playing to potential. but, IMO, he is doing NOTHING....NOTHING...JC can't do.

This, again, comes down to potential. He CAN do it, but will he? Will his mechanics, quickness, and decision-making capabilities allow it? This is the end of his 3rd year as a full-time NFL employee. It should have clicked by now. If it doesn't soon, it may never.

Moreover, I return to the FACT that so far this season...the single best offensive game this team has had was with JC at the helm.....not TC. .

Are you referring to the Detroit game? Not to be nitpicky...but in that game the Skins had 366 yards and 34 points (7 of which were scored on an INT return). Against the Vikings, the Skins had 367 yards and 32 points (2 scored on a safety). And the Vikings game was played on a MUCH bigger stage, with bigger game implications, and on the road against arguably a better team. I would say the Vikings game was their best performance.

Again, I am not saying Collins is the answer long term. But he is now.

[ceviker]

Again, I am not saying Collins is the answer long term. But he is now.

Bingo

[fansince62]

This, again, comes down to potential. He CAN do it, but will he? Will his mechanics, quickness, and decision-making capabilities allow it? This is the end of his 3rd year as a full-time NFL employee. It should have clicked by now. If it doesn't soon, it may never.

Are you referring to the Detroit game? Not to be nitpicky...but in that game the Skins had 366 yards and 34 points (7 of which were scored on an INT return). Against the Vikings, the Skins had 367 yards and 32 points (2 scored on a safety). And the Vikings game was played on a MUCH bigger stage, with bigger game implications, and on the road against arguably a better team. I would say the Vikings game was their best performance.

Again, I am not saying Collins is the answer long term. But he is now.

sorry...but this is non-sense.

- he played 5 games which were essentially clean-up during a horrendous season

- the games he played this season there was never a stable roster...posters on this board can't have it both ways......lay claim that a better season was out of reach due to injuries and ST tragedy...and then turn-around and not factor those into the tools JC had to work with

- he's only played 17 games! and that's precisely the point. that aint nothing in the development of a QB. are you serious about dumping him on the basis of that little experience? WOW!!!!

sorry.....but this is laughable. TC will never, ever take this team to a SB and he will never win one. you play him and the team is back in search mode for another QB season after next and you are not competitive for another 2-3 years after that. develop JC now so you can decide earlier rather later on what you have. the evidence suggest he is on a steady, positive progression. no one...absolutely no one...from inside the Redskins organization has stated otherwise. just the armchair experts on this board.