The TC vs. JC debate and it's wider connotations

[TSO]

I was about to post this in that thread about ESPN's 1st and 10, but it ended up being an essay. I hate to start new threads, especially when it's about the same ol' thing... but I felt this may be deserving of one.

The JC vs. TC debate is simple really. You play like you practice. If JC fully heals up, and shows he's really the QB of this team (which I personally believe) than Gibbs has to put him in. If he fully heals up, but shows rust in practice, than Gibbs has gotta stay with TC. What is really complicated are the views people have on the subject here.

Why can't most of us, for once, just be happy about this team and the great players we have on it? Why can't we once just come to the realization that if Gibbs hadn't put character first when gathering personnel (in which many of us had an issue with as I recall earlier in the season), we wouldn't be in this situation? It is CHARACTER that has brought us to where we are.

What team could survive two starting offensive lineman out for the season (I don't consider Randy Thomas playing a few weeks ago as a "comeback")? You think the Cowboys? The Pats? The Colts? We see how Brady and Manning do under intense pressure when any team can manage to cause it against them. That alone should break any team... yet we continued to compete. Then, one of our starting CBs goes down in Carlos Rogers, who was having the finest season he's had since being drafted. Perhaps the most important position on a team besides Oline is CB. Just look at Free Agency. End of discussion.

What team could then go through the death of the biggest star and most feared player in the league who happened to also be playing at his best since drafted? Not to mention Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El having injury-riddled seasons, where they simply could not practice as much as needed.

Yet, Jason Campbell still kept this team competitive even without a running game. Yes, we lost, but come on.... we shouldn't have even been in those games had we been any other normal team.

Now Todd Collins comes in and has Moss and Randle El playing full-go. Our running game has come back alive again. Our Defense is playing lights out. Even Todd Collins admits that we're winning because of "team effort" and that "it's no lip service" when he says that. He knows it, and we should too. It's obvious. Everyone around Todd is playing at a high level right now, and we could not say the same this entire year for Jason. That is not taking anything away from Todd, who is also playing at a high level.

It's just a shame that all of a sudden, we turn our back on JC who has shown us he's a warrior and will put his body on the line game in and game out for this team. We insult him, calling him names like "turnover machine" and "choker". It's sickening to see. If anyone has choked in the fourth quarter for us it's been our defense, which has continuously given up big leads our offense has given them. Yes, we could've done more, and yes, JC could've made better decisions at times but we were in those games and had the opportunity to win them because of JC, because of our D, because of our Coaching. You dont get half time 14+ point leads by halftime with an incompetent coaching staff. You don't get it with bad, or even average, QB play. And you certainly don't get it with bad, or even average, Defensive play.

Yes, for one reason or another, we've had trouble finishing games. I don't think it's ever any one reason. Sometimes it was on the players. Sometimes bad decisions were made. Sometimes it was both. Now, we're seeing the team finally come together, from staff to personnel, and we feel like we have to put down one of the leaders of our team who happened to go down right before the streak started. Those of us speculating that Todd is the reason behind our playoff push are poisoned by assumption. If Jason had a healthy Moss and Randle El to practice with, great defensive play throughout an entire game, and a running game to help the entire season... anyone who doesn't think we'd have been a team that has already secured a spot in the playoffs, well, doesn't think.

Noone gives credit where credit is due. We all either glorify excessively (Tod Collins) or insult excessively (Coaching, Jason Campbell). We can never see things how they really are... and it's because that requires thought. Noone wants to be patient and try to understand. That takes too much time. It's why I never come here anymore.

I've frequented this place for the last two years, but this season was just too hard one me. I can't take it when I see the majority of people continuously make ignorant judgements with such arrogance and pride like they're assured of their position and that it's truth. This place is not healthy for those who show an ounce of understanding. It's a shame really. I want to discuss Redskin football with Redskin fans... yet it's fruitless. No matter how many of us come with thoughtful discussion, it gets clouded and dug deep into an abyss of rashness and foolishness.

It's almost as if most of us here have trouble comprehending the story of a full game, and thus a full season. It's like opening up a 500-page book and only reading the end. I don't know how some of you can handle it here, and I applaud you for it... but I also fear for your mental health. Seriously.

[sircharlz]

Well said. You're one of the few who share the same opinion as me on this board. I'd like to at least see JC get some reps in practice. If everything goes perfectly I'd like to see him get 1 1/2 quarters of play time against Dallas (we'd need to be up by 2 scores or more & the defense playing lights out). If he shows well then he gets the start. If he struggles then put Todd as the starter for the playoffs.

No matter who starts the playoff game(s) - if they are struggling to get anything going I think we need to make a switch early before the game gets out of reach.

[terpskins10]

Very, very well said. Basically exactly what I've been thinking since not many people here share my opinion of Campbell.

[Doctor ToughLove]

Well maybe I'm the one to answer this since I am a moderate on this Campbell/Collins issue.

There should be no isulting of Campbell, its his first year starting and it has had highlights, growing pains, and a more than healthy progression. Todd has been better and that needs to be admitted instead of excused by circumstance. But nothing that is not beyond Campbells eventual progression (but lets not pretend he is a young Marino or Roethlisberger being wasted on the bench while Collins merely does what Campbell would have done anyway)

Collins helps the offensive line by staying in the pocket better - the better performance of the offensive line is not a coincidence. He's quicker with his reads, has missed the open man less, and gets rid of the ball quicker - the better performance of the receivers is also not a coincindence. And Collins has made far less mistakes - and that is huge in a Joe Gibbs system.You are right that this difference is far less than it appears. Collins is not a miracle worker. Its just that we are getting a lot of milage out of that little bit of difference. And that difference is vital right now. It is what has allowed the Redskins to sustain drives, keep the defense off the field, which has doubled the defenses potency. The defenses production is not a coincidence either and is a by product of Collins' sustained drives. Let's not pretend the stars aligned for Collins (and not for Campbell). The first few years of a QBs career are usually the most insignificant of his career. If Joe Montana can sit on the bench three year then Campbell can sit out one post season and that's no insult.

The good news is this team was this close, to being this good all along, and *when* Campbell's progression continues this team will be at least this good. But Campbell is not there now and is not going to be as unpracticed as he is and with a month out of practice due to injury. This is about 1 game now & the next weeks - and the best shot is Collins. Heck one offseason and 10 games later Campbell may be rounding the corner and blowing everyone away. He's that close, but not now.

[chrisxcore]

Great thread man, I'm sure a LOT of people share the same sentiments you've expressed in this post. I, for one, agree with you in that I don't understand this board or Redskins fans in general, at times.

First of all, let me just state that I could NOT be more thrilled at the way the team is playing as of late. These last four weeks (even the Bills game just for the fact that the team was able to step onto the field) has made me incredibly proud to be a Redskins fan. Anytime you're going into the last week of the season, controlling your own "destiny" to lock up a playoff spot - it's definitely an awesome feeling (and one I could get used to ) Arguably, we shouldn't be competing for the #6 seed because, IMO, we're better than both the Giants and Buccaneers.

Jason Campbell is the future of this team. He'll be our quarterback for years to come and although he was frustrating at times, we saw glimpses of why we went after him so hard in the draft. Is there room for improvement? Absolutely. I believe wholeheartedly though, that this kid will be special in time and lead us to great things in the not-so-distant future.

That being said, we've got to stick with Collins at this point. No Joe Gibbs team was ever built around a QB so as long as Todd continues playing this way, not making mistakes, you've got to stay with him. Who knows whether or not Jason is completely healed and to me, it's not worth risking further injury to that knee if he isn't 150% healthy.

I think a lot of the teams recent success has gone beyond Collins, however. Let's be honest. Is Todd really lighting things up? He's played great, absolutely, but has he done anything Jason couldn't do or hasn't done? Turnovers for JC are an issue that will be addressed. But, I recall that Moss had some great catches against Dallas. Who threw those balls? Randle-El's TD against the Vikings? Who threw that? Wasn't Collins. The bottom line is that the offensive line as well as playcalling has seemed to step up tremendously in recent weeks. IMO, Jason too would've had a great game against both NY and Minny if he had the same protection and execution by others that TC did.

The reason we're winning these games is the O-line and the fact that Gregg and the defense have seemed to figure it out. Pressure. Pressure Eli and he'll prove his worth. Pressure Tavaris Jackson - :laugh:

It goes beyond Todd, Jason or any one individual. This is finally a TEAM. That's why we're winning these games.

Jason has been in the league for a few years now. He gets it. I'm pretty sure he'll understand why Joe sticks with Todd if that's what he decides to do. If nothing else, it'll make him more motivated to prove in the offseason, once and for all, he's the QB of the future for this team. I'm not turning my back on him. I doubt very much that Gibbs is either. TC was #3 last year and has certainly played more than respectably. IMO, however, there's no doubt who the #1 is and will be for the Washington Redskins.

[Dr. Terrapin]

I believe JC is our quarterback for the next 10 years.

But as long has he keeps us winning, TC is the quarterback of the rest of the year, regardless of how healthy Jason's knee gets.

Anyone remember Jeff Hostetler and Phil Simms? And Simms was much more accomplished that year than Jason is so far.

My $.02.

Go Skins.

[Fan035]

Keep playing Collins as long as he stays hot. Use Campbell as the starter next year.

[Gigantor]

Good thread, but it's almost comical to see JC supporters come up with all kinds of excuses for his performance.

The most troubling aspect for me is the fans that say it's too early to judge Campbell based on his past performance because he hasn't played enough games, yet they go ahead and conclude that he is "the future". :doh:

Sadly, this makes me think there's another reason for their blind support of JC...

[pilsburypgh]

With these two QBs i dont see a real big gap between them, its not like Manning and Sorgi!!! Collins is doing things that Campbell needs to work on, JC needs to limit his turnovers, thats his real problem!! I hope JC is takin notes of Collins because right now , Collins is showing that Saunders offense works well when you run it right!!!

[merrdog00]

I agree with most people on here, and stay with the hot hand....practice is on aspect of the week, but, how does Campbell react in gametime situations?? Does he get overly excited, and over/under throw. I also have felt that we have openned up the offense a little more since Collins is the starter, and better knows Saunders system. That is not a knock on Campbell, as I believe he is our future, but, rather a lack of the coaching system having 100% confidence in him. So, for now, I say we go with Collins, and hopefully he can lead us to the playoffs and farther. I just hope it won't mess with the psyche of Jason Campbell.

[pilsburypgh]

I believe JC is our quarterback for the next 10 years.

But as long has he keeps us winning, TC is the quarterback of the rest of the year, regardless of how healthy Jason's knee gets.

Anyone remember Jeff Hostetler and Phil Simms? And Simms was much more accomplished that year than Jason is so far.

My $.02.

Go Skins.

I think this next year will be crucial for JC, if he continues to play like he has his past few starts then he might be on his way out!!!

[Vicious]

The Oline play right up until the Chicago game was absolutely atrocious.

[pilsburypgh]

Well maybe I'm the one to answer this since I am a moderate on this Campbell/Collins issue.

There should be no isulting of Campbell, its his first year starting and it has had highlights, growing pains, and a more than healthy progression. Todd has been better and that needs to be admitted instead of excused by circumstance. But nothing that is not beyond Campbells eventual progression (but lets not pretend he is a young Marino or Roethlisberger being wasted on the bench while Collins merely does what Campbell would have done anyway)

Collins helps the offensive line by staying in the pocket better - the better performance of the offensive line is not a coincidence. He's quicker with his reads, has missed the open man less, and gets rid of the ball quicker - the better performance of the receivers is also not a coincindence. And Collins has made far less mistakes - and that is huge in a Joe Gibbs system.You are right that this difference is far less than it appears. Collins is not a miracle worker. Its just that we are getting a lot of milage out of that little bit of difference. And that difference is vital right now. It is what has allowed the Redskins to sustain drives, keep the defense off the field, which has doubled the defenses potency. The defenses production is not a coincidence either and is a by product of Collins' sustained drives. Let's not pretend the stars aligned for Collins (and not for Campbell). The first few years of a QBs career are usually the most insignificant of his career. If Joe Montana can sit on the bench three year then Campbell can sit out one post season and that's no insult.

The good news is this team was this close, to being this good all along, and *when* Campbell's progression continues this team will be at least this good. But Campbell is not there now and is not going to be as unpracticed as he is and with a month out of practice due to injury. This is about 1 game now & the next weeks - and the best shot is Collins. Heck one offseason and 10 games later Campbell may be rounding the corner and blowing everyone away. He's that close, but not now.

Yea i agree with you on that, those little things is actually huge, Campbell tends to overthrow WRs at times, those out patterns Collins was hittin was just enough for the WRs to adjust to stay in bounds and make a play, I think JC would have just been a little off to where the WRs wouldnt have been able to make the play and stay in bounds cause he doesent put nice touches on the balls and puts in too much arm!! Third downs, those mis plays right there is huge as far as keeping the drive alive!!

[Gigantor]

The Oline play right up until the Chicago game was absolutely atrocious.

It's the same oline! :doh:

The difference is Collins can read the defense, make a decision, throw accurately, get rid of the ball quickly and not throw an interception.

[RocketCitySkins]

I just hope it won't mess with the psyche of Jason Campbell.

If it does mess with Jason's psyche, I think it will be in a good way. I remember a bad game during his junior year at Auburn, the crowd was chanting for the back-up quarterback. It just made JC more determined to work harder to show everyone that he deserved the starting position.

As big a JC supporter as I am, I agree with the posters who want TC to start when the skins make the playoffs. He has the timing of the offense. The team is hitting on all cylinders right now. And I don't want Jason back in the game unless he is 100% healthy and risk further injury.

[pilsburypgh]

The Oline play right up until the Chicago game was absolutely atrocious.

Naw dude thats the same O line, TC is makin very smart decisions with the ball hes got a quick release, and he knows how to check it down nicely!! Hes gettin rid of the ball, one of JCs problems to me is the long drop back, Collins is playin west coast style of football, hes not sittin back to long, unless no one is open then he looks for the checkdown, if thats not there, hes being smart and tuckin the ball in and take the sack and not turn the ball over!!! which is a big reason why we won 3 straight, not the only, but like a lot of us have confidence in Collins, so do the players, and its growing every game!! Im even getting the confidence that we can win it all!!!

[Coolkid67]

Whoa, we gotta wait at least a little before we make the decision on whether Campbell "is the future". It's his first full season and thats not enough to determine whether he will dramatically improve or anything. If TC gets us to the playoffs, we should definately keep him through regardless of Campbell's knee though. TC is making great decisions, passes, and all so if he gets us, he should definitely stay.

[pilsburypgh]

If it does mess with Jason's psyche, I think it will be in a good way. I remember a bad game during his junior year at Auburn, the crowd was chanting for the back-up quarterback. It just made JC more determined to work harder to show everyone that he deserved the starting position.

As big a JC supporter as I am, I agree with the posters who want TC to start when the skins make the playoffs. He has the timing of the offense. The team is hitting on all cylinders right now. And I don't want Jason back in the game unless he is 100% healthy and risk further injury.

Wow i didnt know that happend to JC in college, that scares me in a way, i mean, if your gettin booed in college then you probably aint gonna make it in the NFL!!! I hope JC doesent read this post and get the old memories back!!!

[bobzmuda]

There's a marked difference between the folks who believe Collins is playing well and the folks who go to great lengths to disparage Campbell. The former are more likely fans of the team, and the latter are likely trolls in feather head-dresses.

[Campbell's_da_man]

It's the same oline! :doh:

The difference is Collins can read the defense, make a decision, throw accurately, get rid of the ball quickly and not throw an interception.

Bingo!!!!

This is a none issue really. As well as Todd has been playing, there's no way Gibbs would pull him. Like it or not, Todd Collins is the starting QB of the Washington Redskins. And that's the way it will stay for the foreseeable future, period.

[Duncan]

and he knows how to check it down nicely!!

Portis must love the check downs now because he gets the ball a few seconds faster and the linebackers aren't already wrapping him up right when he catches it. TC reads the defense and checks down quickly giving the backs more time to gain momentum and make the first defender miss. Screens can kill a defense and they rarely work with JC.

[Gigantor]

There's a marked difference between the folks who believe Collins is playing well and the folks who go to great lengths to disparage Campbell. The former are more likely fans of the team, and the latter are likely trolls in feather head-dresses.

That's a weak ad-hominem attack. So we're trolls if we don't blindly support JC?

pleeeeeeeeeeeease...

[RocketCitySkins]

Wow i didnt know that happend to JC in college, that scares me in a way, i mean, if your gettin booed in college then you probably aint gonna make it in the NFL!!! I hope JC doesent read this post and get the old memories back!!!

Jason had good games and bad games until his senior year. The new OC that year really worked with him, plus the West Coast offense seemed to suit him. He had an outstanding senior year as a result. And the quarterback the crowd wanted to play at that time was never more than a mediocre quarterback at Auburn.

[hail2skins]

Anyone remember Jeff Hostetler and Phil Simms? And Simms was much more accomplished that year than Jason is so far.

Ray Handley made a real boneheaded decision starting Hoss in '91. I don't think Parcells would've made the same call if he hadn't retired after the '90 season.

[bobzmuda]

That's a weak ad-hominem attack. So we're trolls if we don't blindly support JC?

pleeeeeeeeeeeease...

The mods should institute a reading comprehension test before allowing people to post.

Where do you get that I say people are trolls if they don't blindly support JC?

There's a marked difference between the folks who believe Collins is playing well and the folks who go to great lengths to disparage Campbell. The former are more likely fans of the team, and the latter are likely trolls in feather head-dresses.

Do you really equate someone who goes to "great lengths to disparage Campbell" to someone "who doesn't blindly support JC?"

I don't see how you could - the two are worlds apart. It's one thing to think JC is or isn't a potential viable long-term solution at QB. It's another thing entirely to go on and on about how he lacks any redeeming qualities whatsoever (i.e. going great lengths to disparage him).