Joe Loves the Gun

[Oldfan]

As regular readers in this forum know, I've been pushing stock in the Shotgun Spread for some time now. It's widespread success in the college game and other factors convinced me that it wasn't just a gimmick offense that would briefly shine then die away.

I have predicted that, in five or ten years, we will rarely see QBs under center. I think the Patriots right now are at the point where we could refer to the shotgun spread as their "base formation." In their 56-10 drubbing of the Bills Sunday, they were in the Shotgun formation 39 times in the first three quarters. With a big lead, they shut it down in the fourth period and put Brady under center.

I would have had Patrick Ramsey in the Spread in 2004. But, knowing of Joe Gibbs's strong aversion to the Shotgun, I didn't expect to see it as long as Joe was here. But, I'd forgotten how much Joe Gibbs hates to lose. Last week, against the Eagles, the Redskins offense had Jason Campbell in the Gun for 23 of 58 plays. This week, against the Cowboys, it was 30 of 58. In the past two games, the offense has been in a Shotgun formation on 46% of it plays. The Gibbs acceptance of the Shotgun as of major importance in his offense is a belief conversion as improbable as an Atheist accepting Christ as his Savior.

Mark Brunell is a better passer in the Shotgun. In 2006, his DVOA was 6.4% on passes from under center and 31.8% from the Shotgun (Pro Football Prospectus 2007). Patrick Ramsey's game was, and still is, ideally suited to the Gun. And, I believe that Jason Campbell's star will shine more and more brightly as Al and Joe get the hang of their new toy.

[LiveStrongSkins]

I'm glad we are seeing more shotgun. Campbell loves it, and has had alot of success running it. We are starting to get our playmakers the ball. Hopefully we do the same against TB

[D'KanSkinFan]

All I can say, "Thank you Joe and Al" - for finally using this "new toy"

[#98QBKiller]

All I can say' date=' "Thank you Joe and Al" - for finally using this "new toy" [/quote']

Amen to that

[thehogs]

I guess the only 'what about' there is the run game. About the only thing you can run from shot gun is along the lines of an inside draw play. I'm not sure that getting away from Portis that much (just 12 run plays yesterday I think?) is necessarily a good thing. Anyhoo, the upturn in Campbells production is a definite positive.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

I guess the only 'what about' there is the run game. About the only thing you can run from shot gun is along the lines of an inside draw play. I'm not sure that getting away from Portis that much (just 12 run plays yesterday I think?) is necessarily a good thing. Anyhoo, the upturn in Campbells production is a definite positive.

Excellent point. I was a bit surprised, especially after CP's production the previous 2 weeks. Hopefully this won't give Gibbs the 'willies' about being more aggressive.

[zoony]

I think what we'll see going forward is almost 100% use of the Shotgun in clear passing situations.

As much as Gibbs likes to run the ball and throw off play action, I don't ever see it as an every down formation for us. But I DO see us lining up in the Shotgun on 3rd and long or 2nd and very long, or when we're behind... almost every time. Why drop back if you don't have to?

[PlayAction]

I still saw quite a bit of the jumbo package there at the beginning of the game. I welcomed the spread formation but don't think the shotgun is something that they need to use all of the time. There's no play-action in the shotgun. Campbell did well with the spread formation even when he wasn't in shotgun. If Skins keep passing the ball effectively that should finally open things up in the running game.

[Oldfan]

I guess the only 'what about' there is the run game. About the only thing you can run from shot gun is along the lines of an inside draw play. I'm not sure that getting away from Portis that much (just 12 run plays yesterday I think?) is necessarily a good thing. Anyhoo, the upturn in Campbells production is a definite positive.

If you begin with your QB under center, you need to establish the run to make play-action passing effective. That's the main advantage of the formation. If you don't begin with the QB under center, there's no need to establish the run.

It's possible to make your shotgun formation primarily a running scheme if you want to. It's also possible to design it to have balance between pass and run.

[Arlington Supper Club]

I noticed alot of max protect formations when JC was in the shotgun. It seemed to work and is a glimmer of hope that the staff can make adjustments.

JC is and will be a very good qb. I hate to use redskin optimism, but our offense will be huge next year. (with a few less injuries and some key players returning.)

[thehogs]

If you begin with your QB under center, you need to establish the run to make play-action passing effective. That's the main advantage of the formation. If you don't begin with the QB under center, there's no need to establish the run.

It's possible to make your shotgun formation primarily a running scheme if you want to. It's also possible to design it to have balance between pass and run.

I've seen teams do it before but I'm too 'old school' to beleive in it! Atlanta had the 'Red Gun' offence back in the late 80's I think it was. Everyone talked that it was the future of the game then but I'm stillwaiting!

[Oldfan]

I think what we'll see going forward is almost 100% use of the Shotgun in clear passing situations.

As much as Gibbs likes to run the ball and throw off play action, I don't ever see it as an every down formation for us. But I DO see us lining up in the Shotgun on 3rd and long or 2nd and very long, or when we're behind... almost every time. Why drop back if you don't have to?

When NFL teams saw the success Denver was having with their zone blocking, zone blocking became the thing to do. We are now primarily a zone blocking team.

NFL teams see the success that the Patriots and Colts are having with the Shotgun Spread. They'll follow the trend. That's what the Skins are doing.

[Potato Sack]

It was quite impressive, and completely left field of the type of formation our Redskins utilize. I'm glad we're using it.

If anyone wants to see a shotgun scheme at work and successful, watch the Patriots or WVU's use of the shotgun scheme. Rich Rodriquez (sp) has something special there. But, the only problem with his type of system, is that you have to have the right personnel. He has the luxury of drafting high school player who are going to play there for 3 or 4 years. Unfortunately, with the salary cap and free agency of today's NFL it's difficult to keep the right personnel in place.

[Oldfan]

I've seen teams do it before but I'm too 'old school' to beleive in it! Atlanta had the 'Red Gun' offence back in the late 80's I think it was. Everyone talked that it was the future of the game then but I'm stillwaiting!

You don't have long to wait.

Football formations have a shelf life. After 70 years with the QB under center, defenses have seen and adapted to everything offenses could throw their way.

Old school coaches are like the generals who use tactics that won the last war.

[zoony]

When NFL teams saw the success Denver was having with their zone blocking, zone blocking became the thing to do. We are now primarily a zone blocking team.

NFL teams see the success that the Patriots and Colts are having with the Shotgun Spread. They'll follow the trend. That's what the Skins are doing.

1. You have to have the QB to properly execute it.

2. The scheme will depend on the opponent. We needed to put up points against Dallas, and almost every Shotgun formation you saw yesterday was from behind or in an obvious passing situation

3. Zone blocking is just one thing we do, we still execute other blocking schemes

4. What you'll see is teams pick this up as just one more weapon in their arsenal. Just like how elements of the WC offense exist in almost every playbook, and elements of Coryell, etc.

Even on the defensive side, you're seeing teams more and more running a hybrid cover-2, because to run a pure cover 2, you've got to have incredible talent along the line of scrimmage and incredible speed in the secondary.

Because only teams like the Colts actually have this, most teams choose to run the cover 2 in certain situations, not as a base defense. Teams who have stubbornly stuck with that scheme DESPITE personnel have paid the price for it, i.e. Tampa and Chicago this year.

You'll see the same thing with the Shotgun Spread. If you've got a HOF QB, yah, why not run it every down. If you're executing under more modest circumstances, you'd better be willing to mix it up.

.....

[Oldfan]

Unfortunately, with the salary cap and free agency of today's NFL it's difficult to keep the right personnel in place.

That's true with any scheme.

NFL teams today have to train QBs to adapt to taking the ball from under center and dropping back. Most do not do it in college.

[thehogs]

You don't have long to wait.

Football formations have a shelf life. After 70 years with the QB under center, defenses have seen and adapted to everything offenses could throw their way.

Old school coaches are like the generals who use tactics that won the last war.

That crossed my mind whilst writing. I guess 'in the beginning was the run' but a team like the Colts are certainly a sight to behold when they get that audible-shotgun game going (injuries allowing for now). So is this the end for Portis? no more Riggins? am I headed for the 'Bide a wee old generals' home?! :cry:

[Oldfan]

You'll see the same thing with the Shotgun Spread. If you've got a HOF QB, yah, why not run it every down. If you're executing under more modest circumstances, you'd better be willing to mix it up.

You're 180 degrees wrong.

The Shotgun Spread has taken over in the college game because it doesn't need powerhouse talent to win football games.

Texas Tech QBs, and others, looked like future HOFs in college, then failed in the NFL as high draft picks when put under center.

[zoony]

You're 180 degrees wrong.

The Shotgun Spread has taken over in the college game because it doesn't need powerhouse talent to win football games.

Texas Tech QBs, and others, looked like future HOFs in college, then failed in the NFL as high draft picks when put under center.

You need to be very careful if you want to go down that road. Florida's single wing has been almost unstoppable this year, doesn't mean they would work in the NFL.

Hell, Nebraska ran the option and executed it to near perfection. They were unstoppable...

Of course, you need the right personnel.

About 10% of schemes from College migrate their way up to the NFL. The most famous for us 'Skins fans of course being the Counter Gap/Tray that Gibbs hijacked early in his career. But most college schemes are abandoned at the NFL level for a reason. And it ain't stubborness.

*edit* I know the Counter Tray isn't a scheme, I mis-typed... meant "play"

.....

[Oldfan]

That crossed my mind whilst writing. I guess 'in the beginning was the run' but a team like the Colts are certainly a sight to behold when they get that audible-shotgun game going (injuries allowing for now). So is this the end for Portis? no more Riggins? am I headed for the 'Bide a wee old generals' home?! :cry:

Portis and Riggins would be used differently. How, would depend on the scheme. You could run every down from the shotgun if you designed it for that purpose.

A disadvantage of running from the conventional formations is that the ball is handed to the RB fairly close to the LOS with his momentum aimed at where the hole is supposed to be. If the hole isn't there, it's hard for him to escape.

If you pulled Campbell, and Shotgun-snapped the ball to Portis, with a couple of heavyweight blockers leading him, you have a short-yardage power running formation that makes it easier for Clinton to find daylight.

[DiscoBob]

I think the key in today's game is adaptability. Every team has strengths and weaknesses, and unless you are head and shoulders above other teams in one phase of the game, you have to game plan each week to exploit your opponent's weaknesses. The problem so far with the Skins has been the inability to execute on offense, regardless of the gameplan. We have continually had execution failures. Combine this with a coaching staff that is conservative to begin with, our offense has struggled all year.

I'm hoping that this weeks game proved to the coaching staff (and the players) that they can win games by passing, and being aggressive through the air throughout the game. Once you have an offense that is capable in different areas - grind it out, dink-and-dunk, 50/50 run & playaction, 70% passing....then each of these styles of play become a tool in your toolbelt that you can pull out to challenge different aspects of a defense.

In Summary: The Redskins are not dominant in any phase of the game, but if they can prove to be capable in various styles of offense, then they can be a solid contender by adapting each week to their opponent and keeping them guessing as to how they will be played....

[zoony]

One major issue with the shotgun spread is that the running back is on his heels when he takes the handoff.

[Oldfan]

You need to be very careful if you want to go down that road. Florida's single wing has been almost unstoppable this year, doesn't mean they would work in the NFL.

Hell, Nebraska ran the option and executed it to near perfection. They were unstoppable...

Of course, you need the right personnel.

About 10% of schemes from College migrate their way up to the NFL. The most famous of course being the Counter Gap/Tray that Gibbs hijacked early in his career. But most college schemes are abandoned at the NFL level for a reason. And it ain't stubborness.

.....

Most college schemes don't transition well to the NFL, very true. But, those schemes that don't, have short lives in college as well because they're fundamentally flawed.

Here, we're talking about a formation that has changed the college game and has been proven successful in limited testing (Pats and Colts) in the NFL.

When Bill Walsh installed his West Coast offense, it was pure theory. It had not been tested at any level before.

[Walking Deadman]

Did you also notice that Dallas used it alot yesterday as well......

and it gives a QB like Romo sits to pee or Campbell a chance to see the entire field and to see the rushers and how they are they attacking, not just where they are attacking from.

as for the run game in shotgun, there are ways to do it without being draws only. The main problems I see are that in many cases you lose a lead blocker and that if the RB is caught in the backfield expect to lose about 4-5 yards.

But you can do alot with the shotgun and it seems that it works for Jason, especially in no-huddle.

[Oldfan]

I think the key in today's game is adaptability. Every team has strengths and weaknesses, and unless you are head and shoulders above other teams in one phase of the game, you have to game plan each week to exploit your opponent's weaknesses.

Exactly right.

The problem so far with the Skins has been the inability to execute on offense, regardless of the gameplan. We have continually had execution failures. Combine this with a coaching staff that is conservative to begin with, our offense has struggled all year.

I blame coaches for about half the execution failures. Coaching begins with designing schemes that minimize the weaknesses and maximize the strengths of your personnel -- and making their tasks easier to do.

It's easier for QBs to complete passes from the Shotgun than it is when they have to drop back after taking the ball under center. Consequently, they'll have fewer execution failures.

It's easier for a 210 pound RB to block a 290 pound DE if he's in the slot rather than seven yards back alongside the QB having to take on the bigger guy running at him with momentum. So, if you put him in the slot, he's more likely to execute his block.