CNN.com: SF Mulls Nation's First 'Supervised Injection' Site

[helptheSKINS]

I'm not sure I understand what you meant? Please elaborate.

Giving addicts a place to get high is insane to me. I understand where you are coming from, but i disagree. I see this as encouraging drug use. There is no way these people are only going to do drugs in the centers either. Sending them out on the streets is insane. You can't keep them until they are sober because by then they will need another dose. There is nothing good about illegal use of narcotics, the gov't condoning it is just wrong. This will not stop them from using which is what needs to happen. Feel free to open up as many free rehab centers as you would like, just no drugs allowed.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

Giving addicts a place to get high is insane to me. I understand where you are coming from, but i disagree. I see this as encouraging drug use. There is no way these people are only going to do drugs in the centers either. Sending them out on the streets is insane. You can't keep them until they are sober because by then they will need another dose. There is nothing good about illegal use of narcotics, the gov't condoning it is just wrong. This will not stop them from using which is what needs to happen. Feel free to open up as many free rehab centers as you would like, just no drugs allowed.

If a free rehab center allowed patients to do drugs as cleanly as possible, but did not let them check themselves out, would that be ok with you?

[helptheSKINS]

No worries, didn't think you were pushy, just wanted to clarify what was taking so long.

I guess two things I don't see in your analysis:

1: I dont see why you wouldnt be in favor of these centers, which from what I understand, have the most success in getting addicts into rehab.

2. I dont see prison being at all valuable in the ways of rehab. One, rehab is not just not having access to drugs. Rehab is much more than that. And two, I think its accurate to state that addicts can actually get drugs in prison, and so its usually not cold turkey, as you seem to imply it must be.

I guess ultimately, you kinda see this center as money ill spent b/c it is spent on addicts. and i think i see it as money spent on preventing addiction. and ultimately, you think prison and testing (i know your plan was more elaborate) is a better way to spend that money intended for rehabbing addicts.

And I am just quite confident that the statistics show that prison is not effective, and these centers are. And I'm just willing to spend the money this way to end/prevent addiction.

The reason I want prison involved is because there is a better chance of detox. Drugs in jail would obviously need to be fixed. Once out, off to rehab and testing. If they fail the test, they obviously won't stop on their own so there's a better chance in prison. Also, I'm talking about short prison stays. It is less likely that they will find a dealer in that time.

[helptheSKINS]

If a free rehab center allowed patients to do drugs as cleanly as possible, but did not let them check themselves out, would that be ok with you?

No. They have to stop at some point so as soon as they are caught or in rehab, it stops there. Why let them continue? Cold turkey will not kill them. They will have to suffer from detox at some point.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

The reason I want prison involved is because there is a better chance of detox. Drugs in jail would obviously need to be fixed. Once out, off to rehab and testing. If they fail the test, they obviously won't stop on their own so there's a better chance in prison. Also, I'm talking about short prison stays. It is less likely that they will find a dealer in that time.

Shockingly, I think we are mostly in agreement. I am just of the opinion that anything resembling rehab is a good thing for fighting addiction. And you seem to be of the opinion that the government should not condone drug use in any way.

Both logical starting points.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

No. They have to stop at some point so as soon as they are caught or in rehab, it stops there. Why let them continue? Cold turkey will not kill them. They will have to suffer from detox at some point.

hmm... i was expecting you to say yes.

I dont think cold turkey has the same success rates as other rehab programs. Again, if I'm wrong, I'd be willing to accept that.

[sacase]

Do you really know anything about heroin users? They all aren't just street junkies. In fact, there are a lot of "functional" junkies that go to work (and who wouldn't be using these type of facilities, as discussed in this thread).

And seeing how I just related a story about a friend who died from a heroin overdose, excuse me if I say "screw you," about the "let em die if the OD" part. I tell you this much: My friend apparently had a problem, but he was 10x the person you were, and he wasn't a callous arse.

Here is the thing. I don't need to know about Heoin users. Why? Perhaps because I am not stupid enough to get caught up in that BS. I don't tolerate that crap in my life. If you do drugs, you are non-existant to me. We all know the risks but some people CHOOSE to IGNORE them. Screw them I have ZERO sympathy for them. No one forced them to do it. If my mother or brothers were stupid enough to do something like that, they would cease to exist to me.

As to this post, I don't think its fair the way you are portraying some drug addicts, and I think generally you are failing to realize that its a very dangerous DISEASE which people fall into often when dealing with very serious problems. And I think the studies show that "enforcing the law" has absolutly no value, or at best minimal value, in getting people addicted to drugs to quit.

Just keep in mind, NO ONE wakes up in the morning and says "Gee, I think I'd really like to be addicted to heroin from now on."

ok, then I think it's a good idea.

No the ones who are wake up one morning and say....I know what I was told but that won't happen to me, I just want to feel goooooooood for a little while. I got an idea, if you want to feel good for a minute rub one out. Its safer.

I am sick of hearing its a disease crap. Yeah, the AMA calls it a disease, but I don't see any bacteria or virus causing it. Its a chemical dependancy cause by stupidity. All this Alcohol is a disease, drugs are a disease is a liberal cop out to make people not responsible for their actions. If we are going to pay for a program then the only ones I would even think to consider would be one that was 1 year/hard labor/no drugs. I don't really care how bad the withdrawl symptoms are. You made your bed, lie in it. That is the problem with society today we tolerate way to much crap and make excuses all day for it. I still say treat them like lepers and put them on an island for a year.

[Predicto]

Here is the thing. I don't need to know about Heoin users. Why? Perhaps because I am not stupid enough to get caught up in that BS. I don't tolerate that crap in my life. If you do drugs, you are non-existant to me. We all know the risks but some people CHOOSE to IGNORE them. Screw them I have ZERO sympathy for them. No one forced them to do it. If my mother or brothers were stupid enough to do something like that, they would cease to exist to me.

All of that is fine for you as an individual.

As a local government, however, decisions are made as to what is best for the city as a whole.

Having addicts off the streets rather than in the gutters is a net good thing for the rest of us. Reducing the number of discarded syringes in our streets and fields and playgrounds is a good thing. Having less cases of HIV and Hep C burdening our healthcare systems is also a good thing.

Putting lots more non-violent people in overcrowded and expensive prisons is not a good thing.

In my opinion.

[Baculus]

All of that is fine for you as an individual.

As a local government, however, decisions are made as to what is best for the city as a whole.

Having addicts off the streets rather than in the gutters is a net good thing for the rest of us. Reducing the number of discarded syringes in our streets and fields and playgrounds is a good thing. Having less cases of HIV and Hep C burdening our healthcare systems is also a good thing.

Putting lots more non-violent people in overcrowded and expensive prisons is not a good thing.

In my opinion.

Quoted for truth - some people just do not seem to understand this, nor do they want to understand some of the elements of the issue.

[Baculus]

Here is the thing. I don't need to know about Heoin users. Why? Perhaps because I am not stupid enough to get caught up in that BS. I don't tolerate that crap in my life. If you do drugs, you are non-existant to me. We all know the risks but some people CHOOSE to IGNORE them. Screw them I have ZERO sympathy for them. No one forced them to do it. If my mother or brothers were stupid enough to do something like that, they would cease to exist to me.

No the ones who are wake up one morning and say....I know what I was told but that won't happen to me, I just want to feel goooooooood for a little while. I got an idea, if you want to feel good for a minute rub one out. Its safer.

You'd be amazed by how people fall into these drugs. They also don't wake up and say, "You know what? I am going to get myself a dope problem!"

If I knew a person that had a problem, I would try to help them, if it was possible. You can't, of course, always help a person that doesn't want help or refuses help, but at least you tried. But unless a person does something TRULY awful, such as murder, I am not going to turn my back on them, *especially* a family member. I guess I was raised with the idea that you don't abandon family, especially when they may most need you.

And, again, this isn't just about helping others, as Predicto stated. It is a issue that affects towns and cities.

I am sick of hearing its a disease crap. Yeah, the AMA calls it a disease, but I don't see any bacteria or virus causing it. Its a chemical dependancy cause by stupidity. All this Alcohol is a disease, drugs are a disease is a liberal cop out to make people not responsible for their actions. If we are going to pay for a program then the only ones I would even think to consider would be one that was 1 year/hard labor/no drugs. I don't really care how bad the withdrawl symptoms are. You made your bed, lie in it. That is the problem with society today we tolerate way to much crap and make excuses all day for it. I still say treat them like lepers and put them on an island for a year.

It certainly involves bacteria or viruses, in particular with the needles that are used. That is one of the purposes of the needle exchange program. Did you even read the post I made that had some of the information from the (at the time) Surgeon General?

And don't fall on the weak fallback of this being "liberal" efforts - if you are too lazy to research this issue, then don't cop out and start throwing out "liberalism" as an excuse.

[twa]

All of that is fine for you as an individual.

As a local government, however, decisions are made as to what is best for the city as a whole.

Having addicts off the streets rather than in the gutters is a net good thing for the rest of us. Reducing the number of discarded syringes in our streets and fields and playgrounds is a good thing. Having less cases of HIV and Hep C burdening our healthcare systems is also a good thing.

Putting lots more non-violent people in overcrowded and expensive prisons is not a good thing.

In my opinion.

I'm sure in this vast country we could find a space for a rehab/labor camp.

Anyone busted for drug use gets a free ride AND the help they need.

If it is properly located security and infrastructure cost would be minimal.

The fresh air will do them good. :2cents:

[Predicto]

I'm sure in this vast country we could find a space for a rehab/labor camp.

Anyone busted for drug use gets a free ride AND the help they need.

If it is properly located security and infrastructure cost would be minimal.

The fresh air will do them good. :2cents:

Honestly, I might have no problem with that, if done right. (admittedly a big If)

But we don't have that now. We have overcrowded local prisons or nothing.

And places like San Francisco bear the brunt of the current situation, and have to figure out how to deal with the problems they face using the budgets they have.