The Sour Kool Aid Thread - How good is our Defense?

[skinsfanno9]

Based on the pre-season, some here are predicting a monster defense this year. I've seen a "12-4" defense or top 5 defense as "realistic" predictions in other threads.

While we seem to have learned how to tackle (this is a BIG step forward), I'm not seeing domination here. Lets take the Baltimore game:

1. How many turnovers did our first team defense get?

2. How good was our front four pressure on McNair? Here's a hint - McNair was 14/19 with one TD and no INTs.

3. Yeah, Baltimore only scored 7 points, but had a bevy of penalties. Every time they seemed to get something going, they followed it up with a few illegal procedure penalties. So was it our top 5 D which stopped them from scoring or was it Baltimore's mistakes?

I will say that our run defense on the first team looks much improved, but It certainly helps though when all-pro tackle Jonathan Ogden takes the game off.

Bottom line, it's certainly fair to say that our speed improved, and our open field tackling has taken enormous strides. For this reason, we can certainly have a very realistic hope for a better defense. But without turnovers, our defense will only be average at best (which is still a huge improvement). It's also a fair prediction to say that our front four isn't gonna inspire fear this year. LBs and safeties? Perhaps...

[emor09]

considering the fact that we arent showing our best blitzes and we still have only allowed 1 TD in 3 games, i see a top 10 DEF

[bulldog]

so we denigrate the Redskins defense based upon the Ravens' failure to line up and run plays and get in the proper position?

if it were the other way around the Ravens defense would be credited by some fans here for 'stuffing' the Redskins offense based on those same penalties and lack of execution.

that's just how perverse things have become on the 'chicken little' board.

the first thing a defense has to do is stop the run and the starting defense has done that in the preseason.

due to the vanilla schemes and lack of time for the starters, I really didn't expect to see any spectacular interceptions or 98 yard fumble returns in the preseason.

the fact those things didn't happen doesn't really faze me.

offenses were quite conservative in the three games. The Titans and Steelers ran the ball for the most part in the red zone and never really challenged the Redskins back seven through the air.

playing vs. the pass in the red zone is where defenses are apt to get picks.

we weren't tested. case partially closed.

Gregg Williams, other than bringing Landry a couple of times a game, really didn't dial anything up for the opposing offenses.

We went with straight coverages and 4 man rushes for the most part.

and in the end none of the Redskins opponents were able to do that much.

the fact the front four held the point of attack in these games with Griffin playing sparingly and Washington missing the last game and half says to me that the real question marks on this team are on the other side of the ball.

[Loyal2Washington]

Now post how many big plays the first team defense has allowed through the first three preseaon games. McNair may have been 14-19 but he only had one pass, I believe, that was of the 20 yard variety. Last time I checked Mark Brunell set some kind of NFL record by throwing the ball 24 times 5 yards downfield as well.

So the Ravens had players out just like us, they were missing their pro bowl LT just like us. At least the had their starting QB, RB, and best LBer. If you don't feel the D is going to be better then that's your opinion but the facts are this, we have greatly improved the defensive speed, the tackling has vastly improved over last year, and the defensive depth is probably near the top of the NFL. Maybe we won't have a top 5 D but all signs point to the D having a very good year.

[skinsfanno9]

considering the fact that we arent showing our best blitzes and we still have only allowed 1 TD in 3 games, i see a top 10 DEF

So wait, we're the only team in the NFL using vanilla schemes? Ah, so this is why other defenses are generating turnovers while we aren't?

Surely you don't believe this. EVERYONE is using vanilla schemes.

EDIT: And again, I am NOT saying our defense looks anything like last year. I just don't see the basis for the top 10 prediction. I'd love it if this becomes true, and certainly "hope" this happens, but I have a hard time buying the "evidence" for this.

[jnhay]

I think some of those false-starts were caused by the defense. I remember one where Andre Carter came off the edge and Gaither started too quickly in anticipation of the rush. Some other false-starts would've ended up as hurries or sacks because the right plays were called on defense.

I could see how Landry was getting frustrated in that respect.

[skinsfanno9]

so we denigrate the Redskins defense based upon the Ravens' failure to line up and run plays and get in the proper position?

Absolutely not. I'm not denigrating our defense at all for this. My point is I don't see anointing our defense as Top 5 because the Ravens failed to line up properly. This doesn't constitute evidence of a great defense.

[skinsfanno9]

I think some of those false-starts were caused by the defense. I remember one where Andre Carter came off the edge and Gaither started too quickly in anticipation of the rush. Some other false-starts would've ended up as hurries or sacks because the right plays were called on defense.

I could see how Landry was getting frustrated in that respect.

Wow, no, I'm sorry. I don't buy that the bevy of illegal procedure calls were based on the Ravens being scared out of their minds that Landry was gonna pound them. This wasn't the game I watched. This looked far more like a lack of concentration based on a ridiculously weird weather delay. The Ravens were out of sync because of the weather delay - not due to the dominating pressure of the Redskins.

[Drunken Master III]

I've actually seen a number of other teams' games. I see a whole lot of blitzing. We have blitzed at a minimum... fact.

*a side note... the Cowboys are still horse-collaring offensive players... bums

[kwitt]

The biggest and most overlooked factor on defense is the fact that there is no way we force so few turnovers this year. That is going to make a huge difference.

[skinsfanno9]

I've actually seen a number of other teams' games. I see a whole lot of blitzing. We have blitzed at a minimum... fact.

*a side note... the Cowboys are still horse-collaring offensive players... bums

This I really don't get. Why teams would be doing things to injure players in preseason is just insane. Hopefully they'll get seriously fined for this.

[Teller]

I think some of those false-starts were caused by the defense. I remember one where Andre Carter came off the edge and Gaither started too quickly in anticipation of the rush.

Chris Wilson triggered a flag like that too. He didn't make the stat sheet, but he definitely made an impact; and seemed really quick off the ball.

[Taylor 21]

Except for a couple pass plays the ravens got, i think our defense will be a top 5 defense IMO.

[Thinking Skins]

Based on the pre-season, some here are predicting a monster defense this year. I've seen a "12-4" defense or top 5 defense as "realistic" predictions in other threads.

While we seem to have learned how to tackle (this is a BIG step forward), I'm not seeing domination here. Lets take the Baltimore game:

1. How many turnovers did our first team defense get?

2. How good was our front four pressure on McNair? Here's a hint - McNair was 14/19 with one TD and no INTs.

3. Yeah, Baltimore only scored 7 points, but had a bevy of penalties. Every time they seemed to get something going, they followed it up with a few illegal procedure penalties. So was it our top 5 D which stopped them from scoring or was it Baltimore's mistakes?

I will say that our run defense on the first team looks much improved, but It certainly helps though when all-pro tackle Jonathan Ogden takes the game off.

Bottom line, it's certainly fair to say that our speed improved, and our open field tackling has taken enormous strides. For this reason, we can certainly have a very realistic hope for a better defense. But without turnovers, our defense will only be average at best (which is still a huge improvement). It's also a fair prediction to say that our front four isn't gonna inspire fear this year. LBs and safeties? Perhaps...

I think you raise some good points. As I sit in my den watching the games, I've been looking at two stats where we did horribly last year, sacks and turnovers (I figured that the tackling would be better with Holdman gone and Rocky starting in his place). But I don't see us getting pressure on the QBs. I see us stopping on first and second down and then we get them into a third and long which they convert.

Its preseason so we really can't judge these stats too much as they may be trying different things, but I'm not as willing to annoint our defense as amongst the best in the league for the simple fact that they learned how to tackle.

[skinsfanno9]

The biggest and most overlooked factor on defense is the fact that there is no way we force so few turnovers this year. That is going to make a huge difference.

Well the bar is pretty darn low, so your statement has to be true, right? But again, I'm not stating here that we "will not" be a dominating defense, I'm just stating that the preseason games have not given us anything to indicate that this is a sure thing. For those that look at these games and say, "yeah, I see a Chicago quality D here", my point is this just isn't based on the evidence.

[skinsfanno9]

Except for a couple pass plays the ravens got, i think our defense will be a top 5 defense IMO.

What do you base this off of? Where's the evidence for this??? If we had gotten 3 turnovers per game in preseason, would you think we're on par with the '85 Bears?

Just to be clear, I am not making a prediction of the quality of our defense. My point is I don't think we have a clue based on the preseason games.

[skinsfanno9]

I think you raise some good points. As I sit in my den watching the games, I've been looking at two stats where we did horribly last year, sacks and turnovers (I figured that the tackling would be better with Holdman gone and Rocky starting in his place). But I don't see us getting pressure on the QBs. I see us stopping on first and second down and then we get them into a third and long which they convert.

Its preseason so we really can't judge these stats too much as they may be trying different things, but I'm not as willing to annoint our defense as amongst the best in the league for the simple fact that they learned how to tackle.

Exactly. :applause:

Bottom line, based on the preseason, we just don't know how good we'll be. Anyone who says "Definitely Top 5" isn't saying so based on the evidence.

[Oldfan]

Bottom line, it's certainly fair to say that our speed improved, and our open field tackling has taken enormous strides. For this reason, we can certainly have a very realistic hope for a better defense. But without turnovers, our defense will only be average at best (which is still a huge improvement). It's also a fair prediction to say that our front four isn't gonna inspire fear this year. LBs and safeties? Perhaps...

Except for the D line, I think we'll grade out as an "A" against the run this year. Defending the pass is another matter. Our best corner is injury-prone and in his final career years. We have more depth at corner this year, so we shouldn't be terrible. Our best pass- rushing D lineman is injury prone. We don't have a monster DE.

I'd say we're strong against the run, vulnerable to the pass.

[jrockster21]

Man...how do some of you get up in the morning being so pessimistic? I mean, seriously? I'd have slit my wrists years ago if I was that negative. :laugh:

[GamaGoliath]

Based on the pre-season, some here are predicting a monster defense this year. I've seen a "12-4" defense or top 5 defense as "realistic" predictions in other threads.

While we seem to have learned how to tackle (this is a BIG step forward), I'm not seeing domination here. Lets take the Baltimore game:

1. How many turnovers did our first team defense get?

2. How good was our front four pressure on McNair? Here's a hint - McNair was 14/19 with one TD and no INTs.

3. Yeah, Baltimore only scored 7 points, but had a bevy of penalties. Every time they seemed to get something going, they followed it up with a few illegal procedure penalties. So was it our top 5 D which stopped them from scoring or was it Baltimore's mistakes?

I will say that our run defense on the first team looks much improved, but It certainly helps though when all-pro tackle Jonathan Ogden takes the game off.

Bottom line, it's certainly fair to say that our speed improved, and our open field tackling has taken enormous strides. For this reason, we can certainly have a very realistic hope for a better defense. But without turnovers, our defense will only be average at best (which is still a huge improvement). It's also a fair prediction to say that our front four isn't gonna inspire fear this year. LBs and safeties? Perhaps...

I think that we all would have like to see the starting D keep the Ravens scoreless, but just because they scored doesn't mean that we're going to see a repeat of last year. The attitude is definitely different. Last year, you heard the same thing from both sides of the ball. "Well, it's just preseason" That's something that you aren't hearing or seeing this year. I see the defense flying to the ball, gang tackling and the tackling is more more solid than last year. I'm not ready to annoint them a top 5 defense, but at the very least, we're seeing intensity and passion from this group.

[skinsfanno9]

Except for the D line, I think we'll grade out as a "A" against the run this year. Defending the pass is another matter. Our best corner is injury-prone and in his final career years. We have more depth at corner this year, so we shouldn't be terrible. Our best pass- rushing D lineman is injury prone. We don't have a monster DE.

I'd say we're strong against the run, vulnerable to the pass.

That's a fair assessment.

And as good as Landry looks so far, I still wish we'd drafted a top Dline prospect. We really get no pressure without blitzing. Williams' bet is that the secondary will be good enough to go one on one so that the LBs and CBs can regularly bring it. This may be true, but again, the preseason hasn't shown us this.

[skinsfanno9]

Man...how do some of you get up in the morning being so pessimistic? I mean, seriously? I'd have slit my wrists years ago if I was that negative. :laugh:

Wait, lemme get this straight - it's negative to the point of suicide when someone says that the evidence isn't there to proclaim that last year's #30 ranked defense will be ranked #5?

Um, OK...

Again, point to the passage where I say our defense will suck this year. My point is the evidence isn't there to say we'll be great. The Kool Aid tastes sour to me...

[skinsfanno9]

I think that we all would have like to see the starting D keep the Ravens scoreless, but just because they scored doesn't mean that we're going to see a repeat of last year. The attitude is definitely different. Last year, you heard the same thing from both sides of the ball. "Well, it's just preseason" That's something that you aren't hearing or seeing this year. I see the defense flying to the ball, gang tackling and the tackling is more more solid than last year. I'm not ready to annoint them a top 5 defense, but at the very least, we're seeing intensity and passion from this group.

I agree with everything you've said here. My point is similar to yours, that passion does not in itself = "Top 5 Defense." Those who are anointing them as such aren't doing it based on what they are seeing.

But yeah, I definitely think that what we've seen so far is LOTS better than last year. But this statement is a REALLY low bar to hurdle. Last year we totally sucked. We could be top 20 this year and everyone would agree that we'd shown a serious improvement.

[Oldfan]

That's a fair assessment.

And as good as Landry looks so far, I still wish we'd drafted a top Dline prospect. We really get no pressure without blitzing. Williams' bet is that the secondary will be good enough to go one on one so that the LBs and CBs can regularly bring it. This may be true, but again, the preseason hasn't shown us this.

Let me put it this way. If there was a DE on the board who graded out as well as Landry, we should have taken him whether we needed him or not because DEs are more valuable than safeties. But, if the front office felt that Landry simply had the best chance of becoming an All-Pro, I'll support their judgment on that. Drafting for need ought to be secondary in my opinion.

[skinsfanno9]

Let me put it this way. If there was a DE on the board who graded out as well as Landry, we should have taken him whether we needed him or not because DEs are more valuable than safeties. But, if the front office felt that Landry simply had the best chance of becoming an All-Pro, I'll support their judgment on that. Drafting for need ought to be secondary in my opinion.

That has a nice double meaning. Yes, we drafted for need in the secondary alright. :laugh:

I just have a hard time believing that nobody in the entire draft year was worth getting at the Dline. But who knows, perhaps this was the case. And yeah, at least Landry looks awesome so far.