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Interesting Draft Info on Our Defense

ThePreciating

By ThePreciating
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Smoot Point Really

Smoot Point Really

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Posted

I think you are guaranteed a good defense if you consistently pick well... Regardless of round. The Redskins haven't had a lot of draft picks (their own fault), so each pick has to count. They were prudent when they went after Landry. Safeties tend to be able to produce more immediately as rookies in this league than Defensive Lineman.

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Smoot Point Really

Smoot Point Really

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I would agree with that...if defensive success wasn't predicated on the line being solid. You can throw Champ Bailey, Deion, Darrell Green, Ron Woodson, etc. into the secondary and if your line stinks, like ours does, it's all for naught.

You have to be solid everywhere... the whole defensive line argument has been debated constantly on this forum. Let's see how our current defense performs this year, and then judge whether or not we needed to make additional moves.

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pjfootballer

pjfootballer

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He might not be a top 10 talent, but he definitely has proven to be a steal for us in the 2nd round. He should've been a first rounder. We were lucky and hit the jackpot. Fred Smoot led this team in interceptions ever year he was here.

Seriously, I see alot of Smoot hate going around like he's supposed to pick off 10 passes a year. He was a 2nd round pick. He's been a very solid player for us in the past and I think he'll pick up right where he left off. He gets 4 picks this year, he'll only be 2 behind the entire team total from last year.

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Brandon Lloyd Christmas

Brandon Lloyd Christmas

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OK, you caught me a few days ago being sloppy... Allow me to return the favor:

1) Justin Smith - "stud franchise player" has only 3.5 sacks more than Andre Carter over their 6 year careers. Justin Smith has never had a season with more than 8.5 sacks, and he wasn't asked to play out of position that I'm aware.

2) Richard Seymour - "complete stud" has 8.5 fewer career sacks than Andre Carter and has never had more than 8 sacks in a season.

3) Julius Peppers - I agree with you completely about him being the best, but isn't it surprising that his highest sack total in a season is 13? He definitely can do it all though.

4) Dwight Freeney - What do we make of 5.5 sacks last year? I don't believe this guy is the best pass rusher from the DE position anymore.

5) Bryan Thomas - The guy has 15 career sacks in 5 years... He will have to have 23 sacks next season to equal Andre Carter's career totals.

6) Charles Grant - This guy's career has been slightly better than Andre Carter's. It's interesting to note that this guy started out a very large halfback in HS, then had injuries that nearly shutdown his career and forced him to switch to DE. The only questions about him coming into the NFL were his durability. It's a good NFL story. I wouldn't say he is a "franchise defensive back" anymore than Andre Carter is. He only totaled 8.5 sacks the last 2 years. His career certainly started in that direction though. At least Andre Carter has had 10.5 sacks the last 2 seasons. :)

7) Terrell Suggs - The only issue that I have is that this guy plays a lot of OLB and not just DE... He is a great player though. I just don't think you can strictly refer to him as a DE or an OLB.

8) Ty Warren - another New England stud has 13.5 sacks in his career. He'll need 24.5 sacks the next two seasons to equal Andre Carter's totals. BTW, when Andre Carter was entering his 5th season, he had more than double the career sacks. How can you call these player's studs? How can you compare Ty Warren and Bryan Thomas to Andre Carter based on them having one season with around 8 sacks and most of their other seasons with fewer than 2?

10) Tyler Brayton - Brayton has 6 sacks in four years... He is a bust. Last year he had 0 sacks and the Raiders were a top defense (This has to be Art Shell's doing)... The prior three seasons, the Raiders were in the bottom 5 of the NFL (Norv Turner).

11) Will Smith - I'd argue the last two seasons that Will Smith is the "franchise DE" of the Saints... Not Charles Grant. This guy has had a really solid 3 years.

Anyway, in summary... Earlier in this thread you said Andre Carter wasn't good because he isn't consistent with double-digit sack seasons and he has only had one. There really are few Defensive Ends in this league that actually do consistently achieve double-digits in sacks.

Another thing this bit of analysis that you did for us proves is that drafting a defensive end in the first round is usually a 3-4 year prospect. It's very rare that you find a stud immediately. Most guys take years to develop. Julius Pepperses don't grow on trees. Thank heavens we drafted Landry.

justin smith is a very good DE, theres a reason the bengals franchised him, because we would have signed him. as you can see SF wasnt dying to keep carter.

seymour and warren are DEs in a 3-4 scheme, so their sack numbers wont be as high. i should have stated that in my earlier post, but they are two of the best DEs in a 3-4 scheme in football. we should all be in agreement about that NE dline.

peppers - word.

freeney - my god, he just got the biggest contract ever or something close to it because of his PR skills. one down season because teams are desperate to double team him to contain him. you picked the one season he had 5.5 sacks, yet all his other seasons hes had 11 or over. so if you disagree, i cant stop you, but the dude is a monster.

brayton is another DE in a 3-4, wont be getting sacks, but im not about to argue on his behalf because i know nothing about him.

grant and smith are both cornerstones of that saints dline. both are very good, and one of them was just franchised because he was that good. teams dont franchise weak players, they just dont.

suggs is a monster, you can leave him off if youd like, but any team would rather have him than carter.

brayton - bust, no argument

the other issue with this, is that carter is a pure speed rusher, unlike some of the other guys with down sack numbers like youve shown. it cant all be about sacks, but the fact that most of these guys have been franchised says to me teams dont want him to get away. notice that carter is the only one out of that entire group that isnt on the team that drafted him?

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Morneblade

Morneblade

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You have to be solid everywhere... the whole defensive line argument has been debated constantly on this forum. Let's see how our current defense performs this year, and then judge whether or not we needed to make additional moves.

This isnt really true. Chicago's secondary is not that good, but because of what the front 7 do, they dont need to be.

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Morneblade

Morneblade

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the other issue with this, is that carter is a pure speed rusher, unlike some of the other guys with down sack numbers like youve shown. it cant all be about sacks, but the fact that most of these guys have been franchised says to me teams dont want him to get away. notice that carter is the only one out of that entire group that isnt on the team that drafted him?

The only think I'm going to say about Carter is while he isnt a big guy and built like a speed rusher, is that I think he plays the run better than almost any other speed rusher out there. He had alot of tackles for us (lead the D-line last year) and he plays his ass off against the run. He's not big, but he puts 100% into playing the run, alot of speed rushers dont. :logo:

And the reason he was moved from DE to OLB was because SF got a new D. Coordinator that runs the 3-4 instaed of the 4-3. They tried to make him a LB, because they thought he was valuable enought to have out there. He didnt adjust well and since they're sticking with the 3-4 he bacame expendable. Like Freeney would if the Colts went 3-4.

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jpyaks3

jpyaks3

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Posted
OK, you caught me a few days ago being sloppy... Allow me to return the favor:

1) Justin Smith - "stud franchise player" has only 3.5 sacks more than Andre Carter over their 6 year careers. Justin Smith has never had a season with more than 8.5 sacks, and he wasn't asked to play out of position that I'm aware.

2) Richard Seymour - "complete stud" has 8.5 fewer career sacks than Andre Carter and has never had more than 8 sacks in a season.

3) Julius Peppers - I agree with you completely about him being the best, but isn't it surprising that his highest sack total in a season is 13? He definitely can do it all though.

4) Dwight Freeney - What do we make of 5.5 sacks last year? I don't believe this guy is the best pass rusher from the DE position anymore.

5) Bryan Thomas - The guy has 15 career sacks in 5 years... He will have to have 23 sacks next season to equal Andre Carter's career totals.

6) Charles Grant - This guy's career has been slightly better than Andre Carter's. It's interesting to note that this guy started out a very large halfback in HS, then had injuries that nearly shutdown his career and forced him to switch to DE. The only questions about him coming into the NFL were his durability. It's a good NFL story. I wouldn't say he is a "franchise defensive back" anymore than Andre Carter is. He only totaled 8.5 sacks the last 2 years. His career certainly started in that direction though. At least Andre Carter has had 10.5 sacks the last 2 seasons. :)

7) Terrell Suggs - The only issue that I have is that this guy plays a lot of OLB and not just DE... He is a great player though. I just don't think you can strictly refer to him as a DE or an OLB.

8) Ty Warren - another New England stud has 13.5 sacks in his career. He'll need 24.5 sacks the next two seasons to equal Andre Carter's totals. BTW, when Andre Carter was entering his 5th season, he had more than double the career sacks. How can you call these player's studs? How can you compare Ty Warren and Bryan Thomas to Andre Carter based on them having one season with around 8 sacks and most of their other seasons with fewer than 2?

10) Tyler Brayton - Brayton has 6 sacks in four years... He is a bust. Last year he had 0 sacks and the Raiders were a top defense (This has to be Art Shell's doing)... The prior three seasons, the Raiders were in the bottom 5 of the NFL (Norv Turner).

11) Will Smith - I'd argue the last two seasons that Will Smith is the "franchise DE" of the Saints... Not Charles Grant. This guy has had a really solid 3 years.

Anyway, in summary... Earlier in this thread you said Andre Carter wasn't good because he isn't consistent with double-digit sack seasons and he has only had one. There really are few Defensive Ends in this league that actually do consistently achieve double-digits in sacks.

Another thing this bit of analysis that you did for us proves is that drafting a defensive end in the first round is usually a 3-4 year prospect. It's very rare that you find a stud immediately. Most guys take years to develop. Julius Pepperses don't grow on trees. Thank heavens we drafted Landry.

Just a note in 3-4 defenses like New England, you cant measure a defensive ends production in terms of sacks or tackles that simply isnt their primary job. Also Carter has been terrible against the run, this has been throughout his entire career, he is a decent pass rusher but a liability against the run.

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Brandon Lloyd Christmas

Brandon Lloyd Christmas

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The only think I'm going to say about Carter is while he isnt a big guy and built like a speed rusher, is that I think he plays the run better than almost any other speed rusher out there. He had alot of tackles for us (lead the D-line last year) and he plays his ass off against the run. He's not big, but he puts 100% into playing the run, alot of speed rushers dont. :logo:

And the reason he was moved from DE to OLB was because SF got a new D. Coordinator that runs the 3-4 instaed of the 4-3. They tried to make him a LB, because they thought he was valuable enought to have out there. He didnt adjust well and since they're sticking with the 3-4 he bacame expendable. Like Freeney would if the Colts went 3-4.

This isnt really true. Chicago's secondary is not that good, but because of what the front 7 do, they dont need to be.

good point, but as you can see he didnt light it up last year with us either in his natural 4-3. this year will be a big tell tale for carter. if he puts up 6 sacks again, we know what weve got with him.

and about chicagos secondary, i agree. although they have some playmakers in vasher and tillman. the best example for a front 7 making a secondary look good is the chargers. their secondary is full of no name weaklings, and that pass rush makes them all look like champ bailey.

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DCsportsfan53

DCsportsfan53

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please inform me about our dline.

We've been over it before, more than once. You have your feelings on it, I have mine. I think at this point there's not much reason to rehash the reasons I think this DL is a good fit for what we do and will be very successful this year and why you believe we don't have a single DLman on our entire roster who could make a CFL roster. We both know where we stand, we both know why. Which is why I say I can't wait for the bullets to fly and shut one of us up. Believe me, I can't WAIT to come back on here and chastize all the people who've been dogging our defense all offseason.

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umstew42

umstew42

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People, Fred Smoot is NOT a top ten talent. He has to be one of the most overrated players in Redskins history.

Okay, you don't like the guy, fine. Maybe you should say "I believe that FS is a very overrated player"

I may be wrong but I don't think you have the credentials to determine the most overrated players in history. You simply based it on Madden games and sportscenter highlights right?

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Brandon Lloyd Christmas

Brandon Lloyd Christmas

Posted
Posted
We've been over it before, more than once. You have your feelings on it, I have mine. I think at this point there's not much reason to rehash the reasons I think this DL is a good fit for what we do and will be very successful this year and why you believe we don't have a single DLman on our entire roster who could make a CFL roster. We both know where we stand, we both know why. Which is why I say I can't wait for the bullets to fly and shut one of us up. Believe me, I can't WAIT to come back on here and chastize all the people who've been dogging our defense all offseason.

trust me, i am definitely not going to enjoy it if i have watch this dline get bulldozed, then discuss it on the board yet again. itll be even worse if some people try to defend them YET AGAIN if they play poorly and try and blame it on other portions of our defense.

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21ppg=superbowl

21ppg=superbowl

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Posted
Okay, you don't like the guy, fine. Maybe you should say "I believe that FS is a very overrated player"

I may be wrong but I don't think you have the credentials to determine the most overrated players in history. You simply based it on Madden games and sportscenter highlights right?

With all due respect, this is a freakin message board. this is a place where anyone, like the average fan, can post their opinions. i don't think it's necessary to precede every statement with "IMO" or "I believe that" or the like.

If you post something and don't back it up with some type of stat or article reference, I expect everyone to assume it's an opinion. it may differ from mine, but hey, that's cool too.

Obviously, opinions supported by fact are much stronger. But you shouldn't need to footnote or cite every post just to use this board. (hyperbole)

Or at least that's my feeling on the subject, :2cents:, IMO, etc. etc.

p.s.

i'm not trying to call you out like you're the only person to do this type of thing. i see it on the board a good bit, and it has started to bother me. that's all.

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JC2MOSS

JC2MOSS

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Posted
springs has been an injury concern forever.

rogers hasnt shown that hes the man yet. hes shown flashes, but hes not the man yet.

smoot is good, but has never shown that hes a true 1st round talent

taylor is a stud, should step up

landry has never played a down in the nfl

carter should be considered a bust, he has never lived up to that draft pick.

draft position means absolutely nothing.

Way to go redskins fan! Nothing like pissing on another Redskins fan to make yourself feel better! God I love ES!

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JC2MOSS

JC2MOSS

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Posted
God I can't wait for this season to start. I'm so tired of reading uniformed garabge about our DL. I'm ready to see them shut all of you up already. Just a few more weeks, just a few more weeks.

Thanks for writing that man. It really needed to be said. :point2sky

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umstew42

umstew42

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Posted
With all due respect, this is a freakin message board. this is a place where anyone, like the average fan, can post their opinions. i don't think it's necessary to precede every statement with "IMO" or "I believe that" or the like.

If you post something and don't back it up with some type of stat or article reference, I expect everyone to assume it's an opinion. it may differ from mine, but hey, that's cool too.

Obviously, opinions supported by fact are much stronger. But you shouldn't need to footnote or cite every post just to use this board. (hyperbole)

Or at least that's my feeling on the subject, :2cents:, IMO, etc. etc.

p.s.

i'm not trying to call you out like you're the only person to do this type of thing. i see it on the board a good bit, and it has started to bother me. that's all.

Point taken, likewise, it just bugs me when people sit here all day saying "wtf, springz sux, he has never played well evr! Cut him and sign champ!"

I never mentioned that smoot isn't overrated, b/c an opinion is an opinion

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