ThePreciating Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Shawn Springs - First Round (3rd overall) Carlos Rogers - First Round (9th overall) Fred Smoot - Second Round (off field issues dropped him out of the top ten) Sean Taylor - First Round (5th overall) Laron Landry - First Round (5th overall) Andre Carter - First Round (7th Overall) That's right. MORE THAN HALF of our starting defense went (or in Smoot's case, should have gone) in the TOP TEN picks. This team should see SIGNIFICANT improvement on defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdarugar Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I wouldn't say Smoot dropped out of top 10, I think it just dropped him out of the 1st round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Siven Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Mike Rumph was a first round pick..... so yeah..... doesn't really mean jack that we have a lot of first rounders on D. I think Daniels was a first rounder also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck812 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Will Rogers, Springs and Smoot all now be starting???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Shawn Springs - First Round (3rd overall)Carlos Rogers - First Round (9th overall) Fred Smoot - Second Round (off field issues dropped him out of the top ten) Sean Taylor - First Round (5th overall) Laron Landry - First Round (5th overall) Andre Carter - First Round (7th Overall) That's right. MORE THAN HALF of our starting defense went (or in Smoot's case, should have gone) in the TOP TEN picks. This team should see SIGNIFICANT improvement on defense. springs has been an injury concern forever. rogers hasnt shown that hes the man yet. hes shown flashes, but hes not the man yet. smoot is good, but has never shown that hes a true 1st round talent taylor is a stud, should step up landry has never played a down in the nfl carter should be considered a bust, he has never lived up to that draft pick. draft position means absolutely nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Mike Rumph was a first round pick..... so yeah..... doesn't really mean jack that we have a lot of first rounders on D. I think Daniels was a first rounder also. renaldo wynn was a first round draft pick. hes barely a backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorcoreskin Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Mike Rumph was a first round pick..... so yeah..... doesn't really mean jack that we have a lot of first rounders on D. I think Daniels was a first rounder also. So was Archuletta. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCMONEY Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 renaldo wynn was a first round draft pick. hes barely a backup. At least Renaldo can play the run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdarugar Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 springs has been an injury concern forever.rogers hasnt shown that hes the man yet. hes shown flashes, but hes not the man yet. smoot is good, but has never shown that hes a true 1st round talent taylor is a stud, should step up landry has never played a down in the nfl carter should be considered a bust, he has never lived up to that draft pick. draft position means absolutely nothing. I definately would not call Carter a bust, he has been a pro bowler and averages 6 sacks a year...that is alot more than a lot of top 10 DL become. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taylorcoreskin Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 At least Renaldo can play the run. He'd have to see the field first in order to play the run. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I definately would not call Carter a bust, he has been a pro bowler and averages 6 sacks a year...that is alot more than a lot of top 10 DL become. :2cents: hes had 1 season with double digit sacks. for the 7th overall pick, that is very bad. ill retract the word "bust", but he definitely hasnt performed like the 7th overall pick. guys picked that high are projected to put up great numbers and be a big impact guy, which he is not. and 6 sacks a year is pretty weak. good DEs produce much higher than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostOfLamontHollinquest Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Wilkinson, Stubblefield, Coleman and Lang. Badass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Area51 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 People, Fred Smoot is NOT a top ten talent. He has to be one of the most overrated players in Redskins history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdarugar Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 hes had 1 season with double digit sacks. for the 7th overall pick, that is very bad. ill retract the word "bust", but he definitely hasnt performed like the 7th overall pick. guys picked that high are projected to put up great numbers and be a big impact guy, which he is not.and 6 sacks a year is pretty weak. good DEs produce much higher than that. I'll agree to disagree with you on that, you also have to consider he barely played in 04 and was an OLB in 05. I would really like to compare the guy to other top 10 DL of the last 10-15 years I would think his numbers are in the middle of the pack def. not weak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morneblade Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Shawn Springs - First Round (3rd overall)Carlos Rogers - First Round (9th overall) Fred Smoot - Second Round (off field issues dropped him out of the top ten) Sean Taylor - First Round (5th overall) Laron Landry - First Round (5th overall) Andre Carter - First Round (7th Overall) That's right. MORE THAN HALF of our starting defense went (or in Smoot's case, should have gone) in the TOP TEN picks. This team should see SIGNIFICANT improvement on defense. The LB's and DB's look very solid. And should, that is where we have put most of our attention to. However, the heart of the Defense is still the Line, and that area doesnt look so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morpheusmeyers Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Shawn Springs - First Round (3rd overall)Carlos Rogers - First Round (9th overall) Fred Smoot - Second Round (off field issues dropped him out of the top ten) Sean Taylor - First Round (5th overall) Laron Landry - First Round (5th overall) Andre Carter - First Round (7th Overall) That's right. MORE THAN HALF of our starting defense went (or in Smoot's case, should have gone) in the TOP TEN picks. This team should see SIGNIFICANT improvement on defense. Smoot isn't starting. He's our nickel back. If he is starting, then Springs or Rogers isn't. Plus, Smoot wasn't a 1st round pick. Don't think he was ever projected as top 10. Maybe low 1st round. We gained one potential 1st round starter in Landry, but lost one in Archuleta. The numbers don't mean anything. London Fletcher wasn't even drafted but if the defense is significantly improved this year there's a good chance he's a big reason why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Lloyd Christmas Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 I'll agree to disagree with you on that, you also have to consider he barely played in 04 and was an OLB in 05. I would really like to compare the guy to other top 10 DL of the last 10-15 years I would think his numbers are in the middle of the pack def. not weak. lets just look at his draft class to the present, and we'll do DEs only: 2001 justin smith, bengals, 4th - stud franchise player. richard seymour, NE, 5th - stud end, played on 3 superbowl defenses, complete beast. andre carter, SF/WSH, 7th - injured, moved positions, underperformed, one good season jamal reynolds, GB, 10th - no clue, probably busted out 2002 julius peppers, panthers, 2nd - best DE in football, complete monster dwight freeney, colts, 11th - best pass rusher in football, complete stud Bryan thomas, jets, 22nd - dont know much about him, just had a very good season though, probably on the same level as carter in terms of production over his career. charles grant, NO, 25th - franchise DE for the saints, very durable and solid. 2 seasons of 10 sacks. 2003 terrell suggs, baltimore, 10th - complete stud on the best defense in football ty warren, NE, 13th - another stud on new englands great dline, even if they run a 3-4, dude produces. michael haynes, chicago, 14th - underproducing bust. jerome mcdougle, philly, 15th - bust tyler brayton, oakland, 32nd - pretty much a bust, but still plays on a good defense. 2004 will smith, NO, 18th - another stud de on the saints, very good rusher. kenechi udeze, minny, 20th - close to being a bust, has some time to redeem himself, but not too good. jason babin, houston, 27th - decent, but not 1st round worthy. ill leave out 05 and 06 because those players are still developing, but in terms of DEs taken in the top 10, hes probably been one of the most underproductive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoot Point Really Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 People, Fred Smoot is NOT a top ten talent. He has to be one of the most overrated players in Redskins history. He might not be a top 10 talent, but he definitely has proven to be a steal for us in the 2nd round. He should've been a first rounder. We were lucky and hit the jackpot. Fred Smoot led this team in interceptions ever year he was here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weganator Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 So was Archuletta. :doh: Archuletta is a damn good in the box safety that was asked to play coverage that he just couldnt handle. I have always been a fan of his and was excited when he came to play for us, but we just didnt use him right. If chicago can use him correctly, look for him to be in the running for comback player of the year. How can a guy that lead our team in tackles 2 weeks after he was benched suck? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexxskins Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Wow, a bit off the subject, but I just think that it is incredible that London Fletcher began his NFL career as an undrafted free agent. I didn't know that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJWatson3 Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Smoot would never have been top10. Thought he was a steal where we got him and he has/had 1st round talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoot Point Really Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 justin smith, bengals, 4th - stud franchise player. richard seymour, NE, 5th - stud end, played on 3 superbowl defenses, complete beast. andre carter, SF/WSH, 7th - injured, moved positions, underperformed, one good season julius peppers, panthers, 2nd - best DE in football, complete monster dwight freeney, colts, 11th - best pass rusher in football, complete stud Bryan thomas, jets, 22nd - dont know much about him, just had a very good season though, probably on the same level as carter in terms of production over his career. charles grant, NO, 25th - franchise DE for the saints, very durable and solid. 2 seasons of 10 sacks. terrell suggs, baltimore, 10th - complete stud on the best defense in football ty warren, NE, 13th - another stud on new englands great dline, even if they run a 3-4, dude produces. tyler brayton, oakland, 32nd - pretty much a bust, but still plays on a good defense. will smith, NO, 18th - another stud de on the saints, very good rusher. OK, you caught me a few days ago being sloppy... Allow me to return the favor: 1) Justin Smith - "stud franchise player" has only 3.5 sacks more than Andre Carter over their 6 year careers. Justin Smith has never had a season with more than 8.5 sacks, and he wasn't asked to play out of position that I'm aware. 2) Richard Seymour - "complete stud" has 8.5 fewer career sacks than Andre Carter and has never had more than 8 sacks in a season. 3) Julius Peppers - I agree with you completely about him being the best, but isn't it surprising that his highest sack total in a season is 13? He definitely can do it all though. 4) Dwight Freeney - What do we make of 5.5 sacks last year? I don't believe this guy is the best pass rusher from the DE position anymore. 5) Bryan Thomas - The guy has 15 career sacks in 5 years... He will have to have 23 sacks next season to equal Andre Carter's career totals. 6) Charles Grant - This guy's career has been slightly better than Andre Carter's. It's interesting to note that this guy started out a very large halfback in HS, then had injuries that nearly shutdown his career and forced him to switch to DE. The only questions about him coming into the NFL were his durability. It's a good NFL story. I wouldn't say he is a "franchise defensive back" anymore than Andre Carter is. He only totaled 8.5 sacks the last 2 years. His career certainly started in that direction though. At least Andre Carter has had 10.5 sacks the last 2 seasons. 7) Terrell Suggs - The only issue that I have is that this guy plays a lot of OLB and not just DE... He is a great player though. I just don't think you can strictly refer to him as a DE or an OLB. 8) Ty Warren - another New England stud has 13.5 sacks in his career. He'll need 24.5 sacks the next two seasons to equal Andre Carter's totals. BTW, when Andre Carter was entering his 5th season, he had more than double the career sacks. How can you call these player's studs? How can you compare Ty Warren and Bryan Thomas to Andre Carter based on them having one season with around 8 sacks and most of their other seasons with fewer than 2? 10) Tyler Brayton - Brayton has 6 sacks in four years... He is a bust. Last year he had 0 sacks and the Raiders were a top defense (This has to be Art Shell's doing)... The prior three seasons, the Raiders were in the bottom 5 of the NFL (Norv Turner). 11) Will Smith - I'd argue the last two seasons that Will Smith is the "franchise DE" of the Saints... Not Charles Grant. This guy has had a really solid 3 years. Anyway, in summary... Earlier in this thread you said Andre Carter wasn't good because he isn't consistent with double-digit sack seasons and he has only had one. There really are few Defensive Ends in this league that actually do consistently achieve double-digits in sacks. Another thing this bit of analysis that you did for us proves is that drafting a defensive end in the first round is usually a 3-4 year prospect. It's very rare that you find a stud immediately. Most guys take years to develop. Julius Pepperses don't grow on trees. Thank heavens we drafted Landry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePreciating Posted August 2, 2007 Author Share Posted August 2, 2007 draft position means absolutely nothing. The most recent defensive players to go to the Hall of Fame: Mike Singletary - Round Two, 38th Overall Lawrence Taylor - Round One, 2nd Overall Howie Long - Round Two, 48th Overall Ronnie Lott - Round One, 8th Overall Lee Roy Selmon - Round One, 1st Overall Dan Hampton - Round One, 4th Overall Mike Haynes - Round One, 5th Overall Note: Reggie White is not included because he went to the USFL instead of NFL out of college Average position picked? FIRST round, FIFTEENTH OVERALL PICK. Draft position STILL doesn't matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morpheusmeyers Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 Wow, a bit off the subject, but I just think that it is incredible that London Fletcher began his NFL career as an undrafted free agent. I didn't know that. The subject thread inferred that our defense should be significantly improved because we have so many 1st rounders on it. I made the point that the numbers/draft position doesn't mean anything. I mentioned Fletcher because he wasn't drafted. If our defense is significantly improved this year he will imo be a big reason for it. Our net gain of defensive 1st round starters from last year's week 1 to this year's week 1 is zero. Archuleta out, Landry in. And there's no guarantee that Landry will start week 1. I'll go out on a limb and say minus 1. So argument makes no sense. By that rationale shouldn't we be worse on defense this year, at least to start the season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fdarugar Posted August 2, 2007 Share Posted August 2, 2007 OK, you caught me a few days ago being sloppy... Allow me to return the favor:1) Justin Smith - "stud franchise player" has only 3.5 sacks more than Andre Carter over their 6 year careers. Justin Smith has never had a season with more than 8.5 sacks, and he wasn't asked to play out of position that I'm aware. 2) Richard Seymour - "complete stud" has 8.5 fewer career sacks than Andre Carter and has never had more than 8 sacks in a season. 3) Julius Peppers - I agree with you completely about him being the best, but isn't it surprising that his highest sack total in a season is 13? He definitely can do it all though. 4) Dwight Freeney - What do we make of 5.5 sacks last year? I don't believe this guy is the best pass rusher from the DE position anymore. 5) Bryan Thomas - The guy has 15 career sacks in 5 years... He will have to have 23 sacks next season to equal Andre Carter's career totals. 6) Charles Grant - This guy's career has been slightly better than Andre Carter's. It's interesting to note that this guy started out a very large halfback in HS, then had injuries that nearly shutdown his career and forced him to switch to DE. The only questions about him coming into the NFL were his durability. It's a good NFL story. I wouldn't say he is a "franchise defensive back" anymore than Andre Carter is. He only totaled 8.5 sacks the last 2 years. His career certainly started in that direction though. At least Andre Carter has had 10.5 sacks the last 2 seasons. 7) Terrell Suggs - The only issue that I have is that this guy plays a lot of OLB and not just DE... He is a great player though. I just don't think you can strictly refer to him as a DE or an OLB. 8) Ty Warren - another New England stud has 13.5 sacks in his career. He'll need 24.5 sacks the next two seasons to equal Andre Carter's totals. BTW, when Andre Carter was entering his 5th season, he had more than double the career sacks. How can you call these player's studs? How can you compare Ty Warren and Bryan Thomas to Andre Carter based on them having one season with around 8 sacks and most of their other seasons with fewer than 2? 10) Tyler Brayton - Brayton has 6 sacks in four years... He is a bust. Last year he had 0 sacks and the Raiders were a top defense (This has to be Art Shell's doing)... The prior three seasons, the Raiders were in the bottom 5 of the NFL (Norv Turner). 11) Will Smith - I'd argue the last two seasons that Will Smith is the "franchise DE" of the Saints... Not Charles Grant. This guy has had a really solid 3 years. Anyway, in summary... Earlier in this thread you said Andre Carter wasn't good because he isn't consistent with double-digit sack seasons and he has only had one. There really are few Defensive Ends in this league that actually do consistently achieve double-digits in sacks. Another thing this bit of analysis that you did for us proves is that drafting a defensive end in the first round is usually a 3-4 year prospect. It's very rare that you find a stud immediately. Most guys take years to develop. Julius Pepperses don't grow on trees. Thank heavens we drafted Landry. what he said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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