www.ArtMonk.org << Calling all web design/programmers who love ART MONK

[KLJ]

are you allowed to use nfl, redskins, hall of fame logos on a personal website?

[Zen-like Todd]

What I believe is missing, and something I'm interested in is a more statistical based analysis of why this is such a big problem. Sites like Football Outsiders have taken on the "sabermetric" style of analysing football stats in a different way to the traditional with often remarkable results. I am quite sure if you start to look at the DVOA ratings and Win Shares for a guy that converted so many key 3rd downs, who caught >100 passes in an era when that was pretty much unheard of, and when we analyse the stats in terms of normalised relatives to league averages (z-scores and the like), we can show Monk was actually a lot more dominating than we might think.

Anyone who has read the book "Dominance" by Eddie Epstein can see the kind of thing that I mean, where he showed that the 1991 Redskins team was actually the 2nd best team of all time in terms of dominance in the league.

We all know that era is a huge factor in downplaying Monks numbers, its time we started crunching some numbers in a more advanced way to be able to compare his achievements in an era-independent context. I am very certain people will be extremely surprised at just how high Monk's value would scale up when compared to the league/era he played in, relative to the same guys today who are putting up bigger numbers but in a totally different context.

When I get some time to finish compiling the stats, I should have some adjusted numbers for you/for the site.

[slinky]

What I believe is missing, and something I'm interested in is a more statistical based analysis of why this is such a big problem. Sites like Football Outsiders have taken on the "sabermetric" style of analysing football stats in a different way to the traditional with often remarkable results. I am quite sure if you start to look at the DVOA ratings and Win Shares for a guy that converted so many key 3rd downs, who caught >100 passes in an era when that was pretty much unheard of, and when we analyse the stats in terms of normalised relatives to league averages (z-scores and the like), we can show Monk was actually a lot more dominating than we might think.

Anyone who has read the book "Dominance" by Eddie Epstein can see the kind of thing that I mean, where he showed that the 1991 Redskins team was actually the 2nd best team of all time in terms of dominance in the league.

We all know that era is a huge factor in downplaying Monks numbers, its time we started crunching some numbers in a more advanced way to be able to compare his achievements in an era-independent context. I am very certain people will be extremely surprised at just how high Monk's value would scale up when compared to the league/era he played in, relative to the same guys today who are putting up bigger numbers but in a totally different context.

I am volunteering you to be an official editor on the site

[slinky]

are you allowed to use nfl, redskins, hall of fame logos on a personal website?

I'm not so worried about it.

I would just be one of a gazillion personal sites using nfl/redskins/HOF logos.

This is not a business effort. This is an effort of JUSTICE. An effort to right a wrong and to get Monk in the HOF. I would hope the Redskins/Danny Boy would see this site and support it 100% and help in the promotion of it.

Mr. Snyder? You reading this? :laugh:

I'll go to jail to see Monk inducted

[SHYSTER411]

I'll get blindly drunk and run around naked through the streets to get Monk inducted.

[slinky]

i'd like to see who would be interested in helping to cover costs of hosting? It can range from $10-50/month... probably more around $20.

I am thinking of a company like this for $20/mo

http://www.mediatemple.net/webhosting/gs/

Anyone with the ability to either contribute to the monthly hosting expenses or pay for the whole year?

[slinky]

i am getting closer to the basic page design. I can get really nitpicky about every detail. But I think I'll have this done near tomorrow for the design. I am not sure about what site sections we will have yet, so i have a sample navigation to the right. feel free to critique the process.

[slackermike]

i am getting closer to the basic page design. I can get really nitpicky about every detail. But I think I'll have this done near tomorrow for the design. I am not sure about what site sections we will have yet, so i have a sample navigation to the right. feel free to critique the process.

Wow, that's looking fan-****ing-tastic. Keep up the good work! :applause:

[slinky]

Wow, that's looking fan-****ing-tastic. Keep up the good work! :applause:

thank you thank you.

i could use suggestions and critiques as well as compliments. i want to get the basic site design done this weekend and by next week so we can work wwith other people here and get content and more up.

[Sweet Sassy Molassy]

i am getting closer to the basic page design. I can get really nitpicky about every detail. But I think I'll have this done near tomorrow for the design. I am not sure about what site sections we will have yet, so i have a sample navigation to the right. feel free to critique the process.

Slinky one major concern for this is usability. The link placement is not ideal for overall usability. I would consider moving the links to a single row underneath Art Monk, or something like that. That also helps if you start to add more links. The way you have it now is going to make it a bit of a pain to add links.

[redskinfansince73]

Nice work so far Slinky! Let's all keep pushing for #81!

MONK for HOF in '08' !!!!!!!

[Bizkiteer]

It takes a bit to downlaod the video, but it well worth it. My 10 yr old watched it from beginning to end...so, you can see that it works for youngsters too. Great piece of work... http://www.monk4thehall.com/

[Joe Sick]

You know you can get web hosts that automatically install CMS programs?

I use ourweb.net. It's nothing special, in fact it's pretty ghetto, but I am still in the early stages of my website (VT Football related.)

Anyway, they have options to preinstall the following CMSs with the click of a button using something called "fantastico"...

Drupal

Geeklog

Joomla

Mambo

PHP-Nuke

phpWCMS

phpWebSite

PostNuke

Siteframe

TYPO3

Xoops

It's another option to consider.

Totally agree with Sweet Sassy on usability. I like the graphic, but you should use that or something similar as the header. Separate out the navigation. Home, Media, Stats, Charity, Other Links, HOF voters/email addys, Contact Us, etc. Possibly run a couple of those bubbles down the side with major points or links to ways to act / sell shirts / bumper stickers/online petition...

We're still in the brainstorming phase, right?

[FedExFielder]

Is it just me or does Art look like the black Sgt. Slaughter in that photo??

Sgt. Slaughter is a Hall of Famer by the way

[praise_gibbs]

"Shut your puke-hole and listen up!!" Art Monk gets into the HOF, you "MAGGOTS"!

"...and that's an order!"

[FedExFielder]

"Shut your puke-hole and listen up!!" Art Monk gets into the HOF, you "MAGGOTS"!

"...and that's an order!"

:laugh: well said

[PeterMP]

I can code in php, but what do you really want. In addition, it doesn't seem to make sense to have multiple pages out there, and there are already exsisiting pages. In general, I would also say that I don't think that wasting a lot of time on a look is going to do much practical good. I don't think many of these voters are going to say wow that is a nice looking photo or a nice looking site so I should vote for Monk.

I think that it does make sense to try and find arguements that anti-Monk people might not realize and feed them to the pro-Monk people. Some these would take some time, but we have all year and a lot of people (potentially). First, I should state that at least some old football stats can be gotten from http://www.pro-football-reference.com. Here are some examples of what I am talking about:

Monk was not a big game player:

1. That stats actually refute that. Monks playoff stats are higher for ever meaninful stat over the regular season. This includes TD's/game, yards/game, catches/game, and yards/catch. I've looked, and I know Gary Clark, Chris Carter, Irvin, Lofton, and Largent cannot say the same (Rice, Swann, and Stallworth can). Monk played in 15 playoff games so let's set a limit of 10. Swann caught just over 300 balls so let's use 300 as a cut off as well. How many WR can say they increased in every category in the post-season that have at least 10 playoff games and caught 300 balls? How many of them aren't in the HOF?

2. Somebody noted that Monk is the only skill player on the 80's team not in the HOF. How long have they been doing the all decade teams? What percentage of players are in the HOF? What percentage of skill players (QB, WR, TE, and RB)?

3. I've read and at least partly confirmed that Monk was the only WR to lead to SB teams w/ receptions that is not in the HOF. Is that true?

4. How many WR's have 3 SB rings? How many aren't in the HOF that are eligible (who else did that is yet to eligible)? Again, we'll probably want to set a reception limit of 300, because for example I'm sure those great Steeler teams probably had 3rd and 4th WR's that didn't do much.

5. Monk had a greater than 15% lead over another WR (NOT player; WR) in receptions (1984 and 1985; in 1985 he had 91 rec. and Largent the 2nd WR had 79 ((91-79)/79)*100= 15.2%) at least twice. This seems like a huge margin to me, but is it? Since the merger, what is the margin between the 1st and 2nd WR in receptions? What are the widest margin? Are these player HOFers are bound for the HOF?

6. One arguement is that opposing teams did not fear Monk. Quotes from when Monk was playing from opposing players or coaches about having to be careful playing Monk or about Monk making big plays in the or Monk about being the difference in a big game would be good. These could be gotten from old Washington Post, Washington Times, and SI (the Post will be in most libraries on microfiche, most universities will have old copies of SI in some form, and somewhere you might be able to pull up Times).

7. One of the the web sites has a good quote from Lenny P. about Monk being a HOFer. Others would be useful.

8. Everything Dr. Z has ever written should be gone over carefully. He know does an all-pro team on-line. The internet records don't go back that far, but did he do this for the mag., while Monk was playing? Was Monk ever on the team?

My impression from e-mail conversation w/ some pro-Monk voters is that a lot of anti-voters consider Dr. Z and Lenny P. to be football experts and are following their lead (also King's reversal was a big coup for us). Discrediting them w/ their own words would be significant.

9. As suggested above somebody should look at the sabermetric stats (win share, DVOA). Do they go back that far (I know in baseball they have been applied retroactively)? How did Monk do?

10. The last one is the hardest. It requires watching games while Monk was playing and recording the results. Specifically, I'm talking about 3rd downs. On 3rd downs, did the Redskins throw overly to Monk? Did they have success? We don't just want Monk stats, we'd want all of the Redskins stats and the oppossing teams stats by player (how many catches, how on 3rd down, how many were good for the first). We don't need to do his whole career. A few years (I'd say after Clark was on the team because it would show that even w/ Clark on the team in key situations they went to Monk) should be suffecient, but this does require that somebody can get or has the games. Do the Redskins even have tape of these games? The NFL must to do some of the old NFL films stuff.

[rjoiram]

I am familiar with Joomla and dozens of other CMS's, but alas, I am still but only a designer... my programming skills are minimal....

sooooo any programmers out there?

i would like to help

[ldsdbomber]

11. Please do not use the “Quote” feature to quote huge blocks of text or pictures.

If you would like to respond to the contents of a particular post, simply quote the sentence or idea that you're commenting upon, not necessarily the entire post. It wastes space on the database and unnecessarily extends and clutters threads.

great post.

hosting costs should not be high for a site without a lot of video etc, just keep it mainly to stats and text - this is going to be information and fact based, not hot air and advertising

among the ideas above (and I was the one who mentioned DVOA and sabermetrics), two things stand out for me

1. someone going back over old tapes and DVDs (the guy who did the Art Monk video has loads), and trying to make a note of who covered Monk, especially in key 3rd down situations. I'll bet more often than not it was their best cornerback.

2. someone needs to normalise Monks stats by working out the league averages and standard deviations and producing a statistical "z score". I bet Monks 100 catch season will rocket up the list as one of the best marks of all time - considering the era it was done. Why didn't the other so called great receivers manage this?