Let Al Do It, Joe

[Oldfan]

I read recently that Brian Schottenheimer, 35, who drew attention to himself with the job he did with the Jets offense this year, was being interviewed for the Miami head coach opening. It caused me to realize that an organization can't achieve stability by hiring ambitious young assistant coaches even when they do a good job.

The ideal offensive coordinator would be an older coach, one who is perfectly happy in the job but isn't stuck in the past. I think we have the right guy in Al Saunders...but the working relationship between Al and Joe Gibbs didn't go smoothly last season. It appeared to me that both were to blame.

Telling Al that the offense was his baby and then telling him that he had to run it with Mark Brunell was shortsighted. Put that one on Joe. Al Saunders compounded the problem by trying to force things. You can't make a pass-first offense run unless you have a passing game. It shouldn't have taken so long to figure out that out and go to Plan B.

I think Joe should kick himself upstairs and turn the offense over to Al with some instructions, broad guidelines, something like these:

+ We want an offense that will run on Grade B talent because it's nearly impossible in today's NFL to acquire and keep high-octane, Grade A talent.

+ We want a scheme that keeps the complexity under the hood, simple for the players to learn and operate, because we expect personnel turnover in today's game.

+ Offenses in the NFL evolve, we want a scheme that stays at the cutting edge of that evolution, always one step ahead of defenses.

From all reports, Al Saunders has a passion for new ideas, but he loses track of objective. Joe Gibbs was an offensive innovator at one time, but he's lost his edge. His strength now is in management. He does very well in delegating tasks in other areas, but he really needs to back off now and let Al take the offense while making sure that Al keeps his eyes on our goals.

[robotfire]

I sincerely don't think Joe Gibbs has lost his edge. Even Al Saunders looked conservative in there when Mark Brunell was taking the snaps.

I'm not saying Brunell is bad, but he certainly doesn't give the "edge" we're used to seeing with a Gibbs offense...

[REEGSKINS]

we are going to be a very good offense under al saunders next year. between his and coach gibbs ideas and with jason getting more comfortable im not worried. i just hope we resign dock. to a long term.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

brunell is bad. hes old and slow. and thats ok, youre not supposed to be lighting up the league at age 36.

[Oldfan]

I sincerely don't think Joe Gibbs has lost his edge. Even Al Saunders looked conservative in there when Mark Brunell was taking the snaps.

In Gibbs One, Joe came in with the Coryell scheme and then built on that, adding several ideas of his own.

In contrast, this time around, he has been taking ideas from other teams, like Denver's stretch play installed for Portis and Bill Musgrave had to talk him into adding the shotgun.

In his first tour, he was famous for his half-time adjustments. Those happened, in my opinion, because he was always a step ahead of the defenses of the time. We haven't seen those half-time adjustments since he returned.

[Oldfan]

we are going to be a very good offense under al saunders next year. between his and coach gibbs ideas and with jason getting more comfortable im not worried. i just hope we resign dock. to a long term.

It bothered me that Al said that Campbell needed a lot of work of his mechanics in the offseason and the next day Joe said that Jason's mechanics weren't a big deal.

[Uno Mas]

It bothered me that Al said that Campbell needed a lot of work of his mechanics in the offseason and the next day Joe said that Jason's mechanics weren't a big deal.

Joe never says ANYTHING, I dont know why anybody, including myself, still listens to his pressers.

It was obvious to me that Jason needs to work on his mechanics. Now, I dont think Joe doesnt see this, its just his style to stand up there and talk for 20 minutes and not say a damn thing.

[PCS]

Minor correction. Joe Gibbs 1 was good at looking at what other teams did and borrowing from them as well. I could be a scheme or a way to call a game, (such as Implementing the No huddle offense that the Bills were using almost excusively at the time). He took a little from the Run and shoot as well at times, then did what he did and may do best, and adapted it for the Redskins, ( see his 3 receiver set with a tightend going out as well). I read about some of this some time ago and will try to dig up where I did. Suffice to say, it does make sense to a certain degree. That's what teams do. See what works, and pick and choose a little and adapt it to your team.

I do believe that Joe tried to fix something that wasn't broke by bringing in Al, however, if it's going to work, ( and I think we saw some of this in the last part of the season), they are going to have to continue to work together and take plays and such from each other and include them into the playbook. This also works on the philosophy of the offense. That or Joe is going to have to do what oldfan said and let him do things his way. I don't see that happening myself. And I don't think Al or Joe would want that any other way.

Also, I don't believe that Joe forced Al to come in and work with Brunell. I'm betting Al is a pretty smart guy like Joe and knew what he was comming in with at the time. My guess/speculation, is that both agreed that J.C. was not ready yet and coupled that with an attitude that "we can win now with what we have at QB". Jason could learn the very intense and complicated offense that Al had established while Al could work with him during the season to prepare him to run that offense. I think that is one reason for the pick ups of ARE and Bloyd. They could play and work with Brunell until Jason was ready. Unfortuantely, it seems, Mark got hurt too soon and they had to do the best they could under that circumstance while still trying to win.

[PlayAction]

II think Joe should kick himself upstairs and turn the offense over to Al with some instructions, broad guidelines, something like these:

+ We want an offense that will run on Grade B talent because it's nearly impossible in today's NFL to acquire and keep high-octane, Grade A talent.

+ We want a scheme that keeps the complexity under the hood, simple for the players to learn and operate, because we expect personnel turnover in today's game.

+ Offenses in the NFL evolve, we want a scheme that stays at the cutting edge of that evolution, always one step ahead of defenses.

From all reports, Al Saunders has a passion for new ideas, but he loses track of objective. Joe Gibbs was an offensive innovator at one time, but he's lost his edge. His strength now is in management. He does very well in delegating tasks in other areas, but he really needs to back off now and let Al take the offense while making sure that Al keeps his eyes on our goals.

Tell Al its his offense but tell him not to use the plays that he likes to use? Isn't that what Gibbs did at the end of the season? Saunders in an offensive innovator. The knock on him is that he so loves being innovative that he appears to lose sight of the bigger picture - winning!

Is Gibbs strength really management? That's his resume but I haven't seen it this time around. The team structure is dysfunctional IMO. The blame falls squarely on management.

[TheLongshot]

It bothered me that Al said that Campbell needed a lot of work of his mechanics in the offseason and the next day Joe said that Jason's mechanics weren't a big deal.

While Campbell may need to work on his mechanics, it may not be a big deal. From what Al was saying, it sounds like he needs tweaks, not an overhaul.

As for your statement, I think Joe did need to get more involved with the offense, since it seems that Saunders lost track of what was important. This is a team who was looking at competing for a Superbowl spot, and he wanted to change everything about the offense? What Gibbs wanted was to be able to build on the existing offense, and I think that is what most of the players expected. Unfortunately, what happened at the end of the season should have been what we should have been going for from day one.

As time goes on, the offense will become more and more Saunders' baby and he will insert his own things. That is what he was brought in to do. But, for last year, it needed to be a hybrid and I don't think Saunders understood that.

Jason

[budski]

This offense was built on the run first principal and they should keep it that way. Al Saunders offense has not impressed me.

[Warpath11]

What team is going to come out of the gate rolling with a first year OC??? This O-line never bought into Al's system because they felt that they had a scheme/formula that worked at the end of last season.

To be honest, their whole problem wasn't about not doing what they were good at, IMO, they gave up on Al and his system from the start because it was a change. Throw in the fact that everybody expected Al's offense to automatically produce huge numbers instead of giving it time and learning. Let's not forget that they were trying to run this offense with an old washed up QB. Al Saunders is a proven offensive mind just look at what he did when he adjusted the game plan for Brunell in the Texans game. Everybody seems to think that Al doesn't run the ball, however, if you look at KC the proof is in the pudding. The leadership on this team is so screwed up that they have allowed the players to revolt against a proven OC.

Although Al supposedly asked them (the OL) to do something that they were not used to, they still should have given 110% effort and at the very least be physical with the guy across from them. Football is football, where you have to beat the get across from you, period. They started doing that and attributed it to getting back to "Redskins Football" when all they did was just "Man-Up". They could have "Man'd-Up" in Al's scheme but they chose not to...

[Oldfan]

Park City Skins ---I do believe that Joe tried to fix something that wasn't broke by bringing in Al...

This point has been debated at length on this board. I'm in the other camp. I saw a Gibbs offense that, given the talent level it had to work with, was operating in a failure mode in 2004 and 2005. I didn't consider the running game production during the stretch run made in 2005 as a sign of a turnaround since it came primarily against a few teams that were weak against the run.

...however, if it's going to work, ( and I think we saw some of this in the last part of the season), they are going to have to continue to work together and take plays and such from each other and include them into the playbook. This also works on the philosophy of the offense.

The two men are much further apart than that. For example, run to set up the pass and pass to set up the run are two very different philosophies. You can't compromise on things like that.

Unfortuantely, it seems, Mark got hurt too soon and they had to do the best they could under that circumstance while still trying to win.

I think Brunell played as well as one could expect. The Saunders scheme requires a QB like Trent Green, a pocket passer who makes quick reads and anticipates the receiver coming open. Mark doesn't really fit anyone's system. He dinks and dunks and won't make awful mistakes.

[Oldfan]

Tell Al its his offense but tell him not to use the plays that he likes to use?

Who said that? I don't think that giving a subordinate some broad guidelines to work with is a sign of micro-management.

[jimster]

I agree that I think Saunders was a good idea. - He just needs to find a way to fit with Joe's philosophies. For example, it seems like at the end of the year we were seeing Joe Gibbs running and Al Saunders passing.

If they could collaborate during the off-season this year and start off like that, I'd think we'd be pretty good on offense.

Also, in Saunders defense, he was brought in to help make the offense less predictable than it was the previous two years, but was limited to what part of his offense could be executed due to Brunell's limitations. Now, with Campbell, combined with everyone having a 2nd year in the system (remember we were told by Todd Collins it would take a year to learn), things should click much better.

[Oldfan]

Warpath11 --- What team is going to come out of the gate rolling with a first year OC??? This O-line never bought into Al's system because they felt that they had a scheme/formula that worked at the end of last season.

From the comments in the Post article attributed the Joe Bugel and some members of his O line, it sounds like there was resistance to Al's scheme from the beginning.

Personally, I don't know what they were so proud of last season. They ran the ball well against a few teams that couldn't defend the run. Big deal.

I think Joe has to make a choice. Dump Al and run the offense himself or give the offense to Al and tell Bugel and his O line to shut up and play ball.

I hope they stick with Saunders. The fourth quarter of the final game, with Campbell distributing the ball to different receivers, was the first sign of a professional passing game that I've seen in Gibbs II.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

These Joe Gibbs haters are amazing. In his second year back in the NFL he had the 11th ranked offense with Mark Brunell and 1 WR and TE.

Name a coach that can devise game schemes to get Brunell 3500 yards and 23 TDs, 10 INTS.

His problem his talent . Not schemes. If Gibbs had Campbell starting in 05 i think we could of won the NFC. Gibbs should not be in charge of grading film on who they get

Al Saunders offense is crap to me. He does not understand down and distace. He scores a lot of points. But he can allow the defense to be playing for a long time.

There were reports that other teams coaches were very happy when Saunders took over the play calling and Gibbs stopped it.

Gibbs would of never allowed the defense to be 31st because he would of put them in good situations.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

From the comments in the Post article attributed the Joe Bugel and some members of his O line, it sounds like there was resistance to Al's scheme from the beginning.

Personally, I don't know what they were so proud of last season. They ran the ball well against a few teams that couldn't defend the run. Big deal.

I think Joe has to make a choice. Dump Al and run the offense himself or give the offense to Al and tell Bugel and his O line to shut up and play ball.

I hope they stick with Saunders. The fourth quarter of the final game, with Campbell distributing the ball to different receivers, was the first sign of a professional passing game that I've seen in Gibbs II.

Did you watch all of 05? Unlike the media reports by WTEM the Redskins did not just make 1 run.

They were good all year. The games they lost they dominated on the ground. KC, Denver were games the offense was rolling.

They were winning the San Diago game easily until the LT started to go superhuman.

And first sign you seen of a passing game in Gibbs 2? Brunell had 3500 yards last year.

Do you remember the Dallas, Giants and Bucs games in the regular season? The way the Broncos and Cheifs were getting killed in the passing game.

This season might be the worst passing game ever. The first two years at least Coles caught 90 balls his first year. And Moss had a big year.

They used Cooley and Sellers in the red zone under Gibbs and made them touchdown makers.

Its all perception.

And the offense was kicking ass vs the Bucs in the regular season game.

Gibbs offense worked. I have no idea why he fired himself.

Gibbs passing game allowed to get the ball in the playmakers hands. Moss on those WR screens were deadly.

This scheme Saunders runs. ITS PASS TO BETTS. Pass to Betts. Fade to Randel El.

I have never seen such a screen based offense in my life. That may work with a faster offensive line. This is a downhill running team with verticle stretch plays.

[SkinsWizCubsDukes]

Gibbs offense worked...NO! His offense was lame and he knew it. Did you forget about our offense in the playoffs? Oh wait how can you forget something that wasn't even there?

Saunders has a great offense and it seemed to be clicking by the end of the year. We just need to get our defense ready to play.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

Gibbs offense worked...NO! His offense was lame and he knew it. Did you forget about our offense in the playoffs? Oh wait how can you forget something that wasn't even there?

Saunders has a great offense and it seemed to be clicking by the end of the year. We just need to get our defense ready to play.

Gibbs offense was clicking by the end of the year Cowboys and Giants game?

Great offense? Scoring 28 points because the Giants defense went into prevent up big?

What are you guys watching?

Everyone knows the playoffs Brunell was hurt and Gibbs did not trust Ramsey.

They put 35 at Tampa in the regular season and 20 vs Seattle in the regular season.

[headexplode]

Did you watch all of 05? Unlike the media reports by WTEM the Redskins did not just make 1 run.

They were good all year. The games they lost they dominated on the ground. KC, Denver were games the offense was rolling.

They were winning the San Diago game easily until the LT started to go superhuman.

And first sign you seen of a passing game in Gibbs 2? Brunell had 3500 yards last year.

Do you remember the Dallas, Giants and Bucs games in the regular season? The way the Broncos and Cheifs were getting killed in the passing game.

This season might be the worst passing game ever. The first two years at least Coles caught 90 balls his first year. And Moss had a big year.

They used Cooley and Sellers in the red zone under Gibbs and made them touchdown makers.

Its all perception.

And the offense was kicking ass vs the Bucs in the regular season game.

Gibbs offense worked. I have no idea why he fired himself.

Gibbs passing game allowed to get the ball in the playmakers hands. Moss on those WR screens were deadly.

This scheme Saunders runs. ITS PASS TO BETTS. Pass to Betts. Fade to Randel El.

I have never seen such a screen based offense in my life. That may work with a faster offensive line. This is a downhill running team with verticle stretch plays.

Brunell had 3050 yards last season, which still isn't that bad.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

And people keep saying Saunders had Brunell. A great offensive coach can get points whoever the QB is.

That is Gibbs strength. No matter who the QB is he can get the best out of them.

Saunders put Brunell in situations he could not do well. And them blamed it on not knowing him game.

WHAT ABOUT ALL THE GAME TAPE?

Saunders did not impress me at all. They did not score 1 touchdown on the road vs the NFC east on offense.

His offense does not work in tough enviorments like Herm Edwards said.

If Gibbs does not want to call plays because its too stressful he should hire a coach that fits his scheme like a Dan Henning. Verticle passing.

Not the side to side waggle.

[Oldfan]

Did you watch all of 05?....They were good all year. The games they lost they dominated on the ground. KC, Denver were games the offense was rolling.

I watched '05 carefully.

For four games in the first half of the year...Seattle, Denver, Kansas City, San Francisco...the passing game averaged over 300 yards per game mostly due to a single-covered Santana Moss running wild. After that, the Tampa Bay game was the only one where the entire offense performed well.

The passing game dropped off to a 150 yard per-game average. Gibbs was forced to run over the last five games because we couldn't pass effectively. Luckily, we had opponents scheduled like the Rams, Cards and the Giants who had all three starting LBs on IR.

I don't know what team you were watching, but that's what I saw. If the defense hadn't stepped up its game with sacks and turnovers providing shot fields, we would not have sniffed the playoffs.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

our offense had some good games, but again, we did the whole inconsistent thing. huge one week, nothing the next. games like oakland, giants in NY, bears, cowboys in dallas were all pretty terrible in terms of offense. not to mention both playoff games. and remember, last year our defense got turnovers which gave us points. im not saying we had a bad offense, just inconsistent. we need to find a consistent ground, and we have yet to do that.

[TheLongshot]

Saunders did not impress me at all. They did not score 1 touchdown on the road vs the NFC east on offense.

Course, all of those road games were with Brunell starting, and he was hurt in the Philly game.

Jason