One very big reason why Dan might have nixed trade

[The Artist]

I'm just going by the fact that everyone says it was Snyder who nixed the trade, and I think there may be an explanation. Take it for what it's worth.

I know for a fact that there is one former general manager who has been quoted more then once about how much he likes Michael Westbrook.

Yup. Ron Wolf.

[Mickalino]

Hey "Art's #1 fan !!"

I wouldnt be surprised if Charlie Casserly was another GM who felt that way

[TennesseeCarl]

Michael Westbrook has more unrealized potential than almost any other WR in the league. Unfortunately, I believe he always will.

Joe Gibbs must laugh at how Redskin fans have been duped into believing that Westbrook's 65-catch season was something special. Joe had one year when his #3 guy (Sanders) had a better year than Westbrook's best.

His performance has not been acceptable. There are a dozen reasons we can cite...poor schemes, lousy QBs, immaturity, unfortunate injuries. How 'bout we get a guy like Chrebet (from Westbrook's same draft class)...a guy where you don't have to constantly come up with reasons to explain his lack of performance?

[Art]

First off, I'm kind of a Westbrook apologist. Like with Norv, a coach I hung with far beyond most every fan, I'm still a guy who appreciates what Westbrook can do when presented an opportunity to succeed. He simply hasn't been presented that opportunity this season. I realize he likely won't be given that opportunity in Washington and that he'd leave on his own or be shown the door if he believes he should return.

Back when we first discussed a trade for Westbrook I mentioned that we'd be well off getting a No. 3 for him. Now rumors say we were offered that and turned it down. I'd agree that would make little sense. A third-rounder for Westbrook would be an excellent return for a guy you likely won't keep. Of course, anyone offering that would have serious problems for certain.

Regardless, that anyone here is lending any credence about Bulldog's seriously unsubstantiated rumor astounds me. Granted, some of us have posted items in a rumor mode based on what we may have "heard". I've done it. I generally do it when it goes beyond "hearing" and I know a story is being produced. I don't know Bulldog's information. And I find it impossibly hard to believe anyone is giving it any conversation at this point.

While it's certainly possible Snyder could have involved himself in such a fashion, it's almost inconceivable that it has any credence when every rumor based on nothing but fifth-party speculation gets printed about Snyder in a national media that adores taking shots at Snyder. And Bulldog offers a rumor on him that would CERTAINLY be the topic of about 10 editorials in days. We'll know the validity of Bulldog's rumor soon.

My guess is we won't hear a peep, which will certainly display the total unfounded nature of this hearsay. At a time it has any meat, it would be worth discussing. Even as a Westbrook fan, I'd happily take a third for him at this point. So, if this deal was nixed in any way at all by anyone in the organization, I'll go on record as saying it would have been foolish.

Of course, had Snyder been the one who nixed it, it would be national news.

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Doom is in the box.

[VoR]

http://www.sportstalk980.com/Wednesday/today.html

Two words: Larry Weisman

[Sailor]

I too am a Westbrook apologist. Forget what happened early in his career. For the last two and a half years Westbrook has been a model citizen.

Don't forget, Westbrook gave up something like $600K in salary in return for incentives. Which says to me he is a team player and he also has a lot of confidence in his ability.

Well, you say, he's done nothing this year. So who has? The offense is dysfunctional.

Now here's why Snyder may have stepped in. Let's say he's 90% certain that he's going to can Marty at the end of the season. If you are Snyder, do you let a guy who's history make decisions that will affect next year's roster? Snyder may just be trying to preserve his option to resign Westbrook. After his last two years Westbrook could be a steal to resign. And if we don't resign him, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Westbrook be successful with another coach in another system.

Without a GM, who is there but Snyder to preserve the team's assets when the guy with total control is screwing up?

Which brings up another thought which should probably be the subject of another thread. If Marty does wash out, will it be because Marty the GM failed to provide the right players to fit the coach's system, or will it be because Marty the coach failed to adapt his system to the players the GM provided?

[Larry]

Actually, Art, what astounds me isn't the number of people who believe this story, (I'm treating it as a hypothetical, just so we'll have something to talk about), it's the number of people saying it was smart to turn it down.

I thought Michael ranked right up there with BSmith and Shade in the "run the bums out of town" list. And most folks seem to be predicting we won't be able to keep him next year, anyway.

[TennesseeCarl]

I jumped of the Westbrook bandwagon a year ago (after many fits and starts).

1. I don't believe he's a bum. He's not.

2. I don't know if he's a clubhouse cancer. He might be. I don't care for his sulkiness and quotes like, "I just do what they tell me." drive me up the wall. Have you ever worked with anyone who had that attitude?

3. I think he has a good work ethic. (So did Stubblefield from everything I've read).

4. I think he has enormous physical ability.

5. I think that a #1 WR who's never caught more than 65 passes in a season and rarely stays healthy after 7 years in the league is a liability.

At the end of this season, I'd like to see Bruce Smith, Stephen Alexander, and Michael Westbrook. No hard feelings...I just don't want them on my team.

[bulldog]

thanks for the Weisman link there VoR.

I did note in my opening that what I heard was indeed a RUMOR, so the need of some to re-emphasize the "unsubstantiated" nature of what I had written, is in itself REDUNDANT.

I thought it would be an interesting topic to consider, especially since Snyder has NOT come out and said much in public about "backing Marty to the hilt" or "being there with Marty for the long haul". Indeed outside of the National Press Club jokes he made, Snyder has been very silent about the state of the team.

You would think that a strong statement from the owner in support of Schottenheimer would quell some of the rumblings in the press about Marty potentially being forced out or Snyder moving to take a more active role.

I DO know when you have Fred Drasner, a minority owner out in saying he thought Schottenheimer should have been fired during the preseason, that in and of itself doesn't help the situation.

But I will leave that to the marketing geniuses at Redskins Park that have seemingly made all the right moves so far in terms of garnering positive publicity in the media and among the public for the franchise we all love so much.

[@DCGoldPants]

Didn't Danny say that he was going to stay out of it this year? Well, outside of going to a college game and talking to some friends.....thats what he's doing.

If he goes public and starts talking, then people will 2nd guess him. This way we have NO read on what's up except from "source" until it happens. This is sensitive info and the Skins are smart for keeping their mouthes shut.

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[bulldog]

bufford, my point is that people have not kept their mouthes shut. Drasner noted his preference to replace Schottenheimer and that came out before the team even played a regular season game!

Now, Drasner is not Snyder. Maybe he popped off on his own without any input from Dan at all.

But as the majority owner, Snyder needs to ensure that other team officials and front office people do NOT make off the cuff comments that would lead others to believe what may in fact NOT be the truth, in terms of his own decision-making.

That one is on Snyder. He brought Drasner in. He can tell him to keep his comments to himself.

If you will remember when JKC came east to play a larger role with the Redskins, Edward Bennett Williams, who had been quite outspoken about the team as the team president up until that point, went silent despite the fact he continued to hold a minority position in the team for several more years.

[@DCGoldPants]

I agree that if mouths will be kept shut....that means ALL Mouths. This could of just been a slip from a guy who isn't the majority and doesn't like Snyder.

However, I think these problems are signs of a young ownership team who isn't as organized as it will be one day.

I think in a city like Washington, we need to be careful of what we hear and read compared to watch actually happens. Since the odds are we won't find out the truth for awhile now. Maybe there should be a Rumors Spin-off of the Man Comp. where we list the ones we think are true and false.

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[@DCGoldPants]

I mean, doesn't agree with Snyder

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[markrc99]

all i know is that after reviewing the gm, this coaching staff turned to westbrook on 3rd down,which killed both opening drives..on the team's 1st possession of the 2nd half(10:54,3rd),again on a 3rd&1,instead of handing the thing to davis,the team turned to westbrook..that's strike 1,2 & 3..that's enough for me!

there can be an argument made that banks didn't place that 3rd one in a position where #82 could come up with it,but there's some things i didn't like about 82's rte..with just about all the rtes breaking to the inside,evans(#33) looks to jump this rte,to the inside..once westbrook has him turned that way,he needed to make his break right then&there!..

instead he engages evans,makes good use of his hands & gets some initial separation,problem is,he rounds off his cut..out of his break,it's not until his 4th step that he's then headed straight to the sideline..banks is expecting a 90 degree cut off the break!..westbrook takes 3 steps to the corner,like he's running a corner rte..

if he just takes 1 less step in the wrong direction,he'd of been in position to get both hands on the ball..on the next possession,the skins go in another direction and are moving the football..on a ki-jana sweep,westbrook is on the front side of the play..why?..because he's big,strong and is "capable"of sustaining his block..

he does a poor job of getting himself in position to execute his assignment!!..he ends up holding his man..the penalty is declined because ben coleman is flagged for yanking somebody's facecage..82 did come back and make a reception in the middle of the field(19yds) vs zone,but like his catch vs dallas,it's not like he beat anybody...but hey,he's got all the physical attributes you'd want in a WR..

[ by markrc99 on October 25, 2001.]

[bulldog]

Mark it is clear that after 6 seasons Westbrook is still not a "thinking man's" wide receiver the way that Henry Ellard or Art Monk was.

Ellard used to be a deep threat early in his career with the Rams but had to develop a crisp short and intermediate game to extend his career as he got older.

Some players like Michael Irvin mature and learn to run good routes and use the mental side of the game to their advantage, even as they depended on physical talent alone early on.

Westbrook to me has stood still on the field. He is much the same player he was three years ago. Name one thing he has improved about his game?

About the only positive comment I can made about his development is that he doesn't get called for lining up offside as often as he used to, and he has also cut down on his unsportsmanlike conduct penalties as well.

But those are things that merely result in fewer negative plays, not in adding more positive yardage plays to the offense.

If I were the GM my strategy would be to continue to develop Gardner and start to substitute in McCants and Thompson to see what they have to offer.

Then I would look to add a veteran receiver in the offseason, not a limited experience vet like Lockett, but a real pro that has been around and can help Gardner by showing him how to be a professional wide receiver.

That is in addition to any other changes that are made.

Westbrook is not a mentor, in fact he is still in need of mentoring himself at 29.

We simply don't have the time anymore.

We need to move on.

[gbear]

I can think of one aspect of his game that is greatly improved over the past three years. His blocking on both running plays and down field after a fellow receiver makes a catch has improved dramatically.

[bulldog]

well, that may be an acceptable rate of climb for a late draft pick or undrafted free agent, but if Westbrook wants big money he is going to have to show more skills than the ability to run straight down the field and try and jump for each reception.

That kind of physical skill with no route running sophistication draws complementary #2 receiver money around the NFL.

[gbear]

If we could get him back for #2 money, would you do it?

[bulldog]

no, because I think a lot of Michael's problems are above the shoulders. He won't accept being the #2 here.

If he goes somewhere else where he is around established receivers and a coach that really knows how to coach offense, he could still turn himself around.

But Michael is a proud and stubborn guy and it is clear he doesn't have much regard for Marty and had little more for Norv.

Maybe a Gruden or Shanahan can get through to him, maybe not.

But, he is not a good mentor for Gardner. And that is what we really need here right now lining up opposite our #1 pick, a veteran that can show him the ropes and teach him a lot of the little things that are necessary to become a top player.