Zionist Ideology and the Reality of Israel (very long but very worth it)

[Air Force Cane]

shouldn't you terror apologists be setting up a Hudna between the Hamas and the Fatah- seeing as how your buddies the Palestinians are in a CIVIL WAR right now?

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/10/01/ap/world/mainD8KG1E700.shtml

Fighting Between Hamas and Fatah Kills 7

Gaza fighting between Hamas and Fatah, sparked by Hamas efforts to quell protests, kills 7

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip, Oct. 1, 2006

By IBRAHIM BARZAK Associated Press Writer

(AP)

(AP) Heavily armed Hamas militiamen's efforts to break up anti-government protests on Sunday sparked gunbattles across the Gaza Strip that killed seven people in the worst internal Palestinian violence since Hamas took power.

Militants from the opposition Fatah group retaliated by torching the Palestinian Cabinet building in the West Bank. The violence comes amid growing frustration over forming a national unity government that could end crippling economic sanctions.

The fighting continued throughout the day and sent schoolchildren and other civilians in downtown Gaza City fleeing for cover.

"This is forbidden in Islam, we are in the holy month of Ramadan," said Majed Badawi, 33, who managed to escape after his car was caught in the crossfire. "It's a shame on Hamas, who call themselves real Muslims, and a shame of Fatah as well. Why are they fighting and over what? We are victims because of both of them."Violence between Fatah and Hamas loyalists plagued Gaza throughout the spring, but largely disappeared when Israel launched an offensive here in late June after Hamas-linked militants captured an Israeli soldier.Israel's army chief, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, said Sunday that the military was considering another ground offensive.Hours later, Israeli tanks, bulldozers and troops moved into northern Gaza. The army said the operation was aimed at preventing rocket fire from militants.

Looking to a possible new Israeli offensive, Palestinian Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh, of Hamas, urged Palestinians to end the internal violence "in the face of a serious escalation from the occupation forces."Haniyeh spoke with President Mahmoud Abbas, of Fatah, by telephone and called for joint action to end the fighting, Haniyeh's office said.But in a televised speech, Haniyeh also defended the Hamas militiamen, saying they acted lawfully in trying to break up the protests.Fatah officials blamed Hamas for the chaos.

"Nothing can justify this violence," Fatah spokesman Tawfik Abu Khoussa said.Hamas has been under pressure since it took over the Palestinian Authority after its January election victory over the long-ruling Fatah.

Israel and the West, which view Hamas as a terror group, cut off hundreds of millions of dollars in aid and tax transfers to the Palestinian Authority, making it nearly impossible for the new government to pay its 165,000 workers.

Abbas, who was in Jordan on Sunday, has tried to end the crisis by persuading Hamas to form a coalition government and to accept international demands to renounce violence and recognize Israel. Hamas has resisted compromising its radical ideology.

In recent weeks, civil servants _ including members of the security forces, many of them Fatah loyalists _ held expanding protests against the Hamas-led government to demand back wages.On Saturday, the Hamas government sent its 3,500-member militia into Gaza's streets to quash the protests.

Hamas set up its militia _ which answers to the interior minister _ after losing a power struggle with Abbas for control of Palestinian security forces. Since then, violence has sporadically broken out between Hamas' militia and the official police force, but it has never been as widespread as it was Sunday.

The fighting started in the southern Gaza town of Khan Younis, where dozens of police gathered to demand back wages, protesters said. The Hamas militiamen ordered them to disperse, then opened fire at the protesters, who responded by shooting in the air, protesters said.

Fighting then broke out between militia members and security officials in northern Gaza and violence spread to the parliament building in Gaza City, where security officers and civil servants were protesting. The protesters threw stones at nearby Hamas militiamen, who eventually responded by firing on the protesters, according to an Associated Press journalist at the scene.

Militiamen and security personnel _ including bodyguards for Abbas _ began trading fire nearby.People scattered, and children covered their heads with their schoolbags for protection.The clashes later spilled over to an area near the president's residence.

"We are going to beat with iron fists all those elements who are trying to sabotage the election process of our people, those who are trying to destroy our public properties and close the streets," said Islam Shahwan, a militia spokesman.The street battles killed four people, including a presidential bodyguard and a 15-year-old boy, said Dr. Baker Abu Safia, director of Gaza's Shifa Hospital. Two others were killed in related violence, and at least 75 were injured, hospital officials said.A seventh person, a member of the Preventive Security force, was killed Saturday night when the car he was in was shot by unknown gunmen, security officials said.In response to the violence, Fatah protesters in the West Bank city of Ramallah broke into the Cabinet building and lit the second floor on fire. A second building in the compound also was set ablaze.Forced out by the fire, the militants moved to the Education Ministry and torched a car on the way. They then trashed the offices of a Hamas newspaper.

In the West Bank city of Hebron, Fatah-allied militants ransacked the offices of local Hamas lawmakers and set the furniture on fire.

[JMS]

As long as they (All the players) reside in mutual hatred and distrust, peace is going to be a very long shot.

1999 was the last year when no Israeli died due to terrorism. The mistrust can be overcome when there is hope for a resolution.

[Air Force Cane]

Ah, those peaceful Islamic terrorists. If only the Jews would surrender, the Islamofascists in Gaza would build palaces to peace and the rivers would run with chocolate..

http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=6638771

Fighting in Gaza Sparks Fears of Palestinian Civil War

All Things Considered: December 17, 2006

This is ALL THINGS CONSIDERED from NPR News. I'm Debbie Elliott.

Fierce fighting erupted this weekend between Palestinian factions in Gaza. The battles between rival forces of the president and prime minister have some Palestinians fearing they may be on the brink of a civil war. But late Sunday evening, there were wire service reports the two sides had agreed to a truce. The reports quoted an unnamed official of the president's Fatah faction. I asked NPR's Eric Westervelt, who has been covering the Gaza clashes, about the reports of a truce.

ERIC WESTERVELT: Well, Debbie, the ceasefire is not confirmed, and even if it is real, we'll have to see. We've had Palestinian ceasefires and so-called unity agreements announced before, only to see them quickly disintegrate. And ongoing gunfire, we have to say, was heard late into the night in Gaza City, and a key question remains whether the gunman on the street will actually listen to their factional leaders and pull back from further violence. But this weekend, Debbie, we saw no signs of that happening. Why is it that the violence has escalated? We've been hearing about skirmishes between Palestinian factions for weeks, if not more, but things seemed to really heat up over the past few days.

WESTERVELT: That's right. The two sides have been clashing for months, Debbie, but in the last few days, Debbie, we really saw this perfect storm of violent acts and political rhetoric. There was an assassination attempt alleged on a Hamas leader and Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh late Friday.

Hamas then accused a senior Fatah leader, a powerful official named Mohammed Dahlan, of orchestrating that attack. That set off a series of tit-for-tat battles, and yesterday Fatah leader and president Mahmoud Abbas called for early elections to try to end the political stalemate with Hamas and the crippling international sanctions the Hamas-led government, their election has prompted. Hamas called that an attempted coup d'etat. That just set off even more clashes.

ELLIOTT: Now, is this violence different from what we've seen in the past in this region?

WESTERVELT: I think in the factional fighting in Gaza Strip, Debbie, it's different. We saw the use of heavier weaponry this weekend not seen in clashes so far. Today began with an attack on a Mahmoud Abbas presidential guard compound. It killed one member of his elite force and wounded four others. That attack was with rocket-propelled grenades. We're told that Hamas gunmen, suspected Hamas gunmen fired some 25 rocket-propelled grenades. We hadn't seen that kind of coordinated attack with that kind of firepower before. Later, suspected Hamas gunmen fired mortar rounds at Mahmoud Abbas's compound in Gaza. Again, we hadn't seen that kind of firepower. There were other incidents of violence. In today's fighting at least three people were killed. Two civilians caught in the crossfire. So this weekend we did see an escalation.

[Burgold]

1999 was the last year when no Israeli died due to terrorism. The mistrust can be overcome when there is hope for a resolution.

If I'm understanding you, this is exactly what I meant by the chicken and the egg dance.

[Air Force Cane]

Ahh, the old "mistrust" excuse.

Perhaps you could explain how come Yasser Arafat rejected Bill Clinton at Camp David II in the year 2000 then?

Why is it that Muslims and Arabs butcher literally THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in:

Russia, Nigeria, Algeria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Britain, the United States, Phillipines, Bali/Indonesia, Malaysia, Spain, Turkey, etc.

yet people like you claim it is "mistrust" that causes head choppings and suicide car bombings? Do you realize how detached from reality that is?

[NOVA2Tampa]

Ahh, the old "mistrust" excuse.

Perhaps you could explain how come Yasser Arafat rejected Bill Clinton at Camp David II in the year 2000 then?

Why is it that Muslims and Arabs butcher literally THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in:

Russia, Nigeria, Algeria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Britain, the United States, Phillipines, Bali/Indonesia, Malaysia, Spain, Turkey, etc.

yet people like you claim it is "mistrust" that causes head choppings and suicide car bombings? Do you realize how detached from reality that is?

+1...thanks for saving me all that typing!

If the Palestinian terrorists laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be peace.

If the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be no more Israel.

'nuff said...

[oisn1]

Ah, those peaceful Islamic terrorists. If only the Jews would surrender, the Islamofascists in Gaza would build palaces to peace and the rivers would run with chocolate..

Fatah, the moderate section of the Palestinians are fighting Hamas, the militant, terrorist section. If anything, this is a good thing for Israel, as the moderates are fighting to take back power.

Oh wait, according to you, all Arabs are terrorists. Forget what I said.

[Henry]

The reality is that Jews do have an incredible amount of power.

Really? I have an incredible amount of power? I guess I didn't get the memo.

There's a difference between being ciritical of Israeli policy and blaming 'the Jews' for that policy. One is not anti-semetic. The other is.

I've seen that particular line crossed several times in this thread.

[Winslowalrob]

Ahh, the old "mistrust" excuse.

Perhaps you could explain how come Yasser Arafat rejected Bill Clinton at Camp David II in the year 2000 then?

Why is it that Muslims and Arabs butcher literally THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in:

Russia, Nigeria, Algeria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Britain, the United States, Phillipines, Bali/Indonesia, Malaysia, Spain, Turkey, etc.

yet people like you claim it is "mistrust" that causes head choppings and suicide car bombings? Do you realize how detached from reality that is?

Umm, take Nigeria out of the list, or at least put Christians on it. Nigerian Christians are just as prone to mob violence as Nigerian Muslims, and they have killed the lions share of civilians. Its ok, you either got your information on Nigerian violence from the "liberal" media or right wing news sources, neither of which know Jack @#$% about Africa. And Jack left town.

[JMS]

( 1999 last year Israel was without an Israeli death due to terrorism, I suggested due to the hope of a negotiated settlement)...If I'm understanding you, this is exactly what I meant by the chicken and the egg dance.

If I'm understanding you correctly you're suggesting that Israel will leave the occupation of Palestinian land once the Palestinians stop protesting the violent and ongoing appropriation of that land?

Who does that make sense too?

[JMS]

Ahh, the old "mistrust" excuse.

Perhaps you could explain how come Yasser Arafat rejected Bill Clinton at Camp David II in the year 2000 then?

Well if you read Jimmy Carter's book you would know that the land offered To Yasser wasn't what was advertised.... Israel didn't offer 95%, 98% or 99.5%... Israel offered all the West bank less the settlements ( 90% of the occupied territories.. pretty good right? )... Less Jerusalem, Less the 400 meter security zone around each settlement, Less the roads which connect the settlements.. Less the land containing the infrastructure of the settlements.. (Electricity, water, sewage, and phones).... What's left? The Palestinians wouldn't even be able to travel to neighboring towns in their own country if they accepted that... Doesn't sound to me like Israel was offering a viable Palestinian state as noted by America's stated foreign policy goal...

Why is it that Muslims and Arabs butcher literally THOUSANDS of innocent civilians in:

Russia, Nigeria, Algeria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Israel, Britain, the United States, Phillipines, Bali/Indonesia, Malaysia, Spain, Turkey, etc.

Well you'd have to go global to dilute the issue... Fact is that of all the innocent lives lost in Israeli and her neighbors due to bombs and the such.... It's Israel doing the killing... by 10 to 1.. This isn't to suggest that innocent Israeli's aren't dieing, rather it's to inform you that for every innocent Israeli killed by a suicide bomber, or rocket from southern Lebanon... 10 innocent Lebanese, Palestinians, or Syrians are killed by Israeli fired American made bombs and missiles. Israel kills the vast majority of innocents in this conflict because American weapons are much more lethal than what the Palestinians, Lebanese and Arabs have access too. Children throwing rocks conducted the last two major Palestinian uprisings!!

yet people like you claim it is "mistrust" that causes head chopping and suicide car bombings? Do you realize how detached from reality that is?

I'm not equating innocent folks getting killed on either side of this mess with terrorists. I'm not suggesting that all Israeli's are Ariel Sharon types with two atrocities hanging around his neck ( Sabra and Chatila , Qibya on the night of 14 October, 1953)... Nor are they Yitzhak Shamir's who planned and carried out the assassination of a United Nations Mediator.. ( 1948 Count Folke Bernadotte ) Don't equate all Palestinians with Al Quada types or Suicide bombers.

[Winslowalrob]

Well if you read Jimmy Carter's book you would know that the land offered To Yasser wasn't what was advertised.... Israel didn't offer 95%, 98% or 99.5%... Israel offered all the West bank less the settlements ( 90% of the occupied territories.. pretty good right? )... Less Jerusalem, Less the 400 meter security zone around each settlement, Less the roads which connect the settlements.. Less the land containing the infrastructure of the settlements.. (Electricity, water, sewage, and phones).... What's left? The Palestinians wouldn't even be able to travel to neighboring towns in their own country if they accepted that... Doesn't sound to me like Israel was offering a viable Palestinian state as noted by America's stated foreign policy goal...

Well you'd have to go global to dilute the issue... Fact is that of all the innocent lives lost in Israeli and her neighbors due to bombs and the such.... It's Israel doing the killing... by 10 to 1.. This isn't to suggest that innocent Israeli's aren't dieing, rather it's to inform you that for every innocent Israeli killed by a suicide bomber, or rocket from southern Lebanon... 10 innocent Lebanese, Palestinians, or Syrians are killed by Israeli fired American made bombs and missiles. Israel kills the vast majority of innocents in this conflict because American weapons are much more lethal than what the Palestinians, Lebanese and Arabs have access too. Children throwing rocks conducted the last two major Palestinian uprisings!!

I'm not equating innocent folks getting killed on either side of this mess with terrorists. I'm not suggesting that all Israeli's are Ariel Sharon types with two atrocities hanging around his neck ( Sabra and Chatila , Qibya on the night of 14 October, 1953)... Nor are they Yitzhak Shamir's who planned and carried out the assassination of a United Nations Mediator.. ( 1948 Count Folke Bernadotte ) Don't equate all Palestinians with Al Quada types or Suicide bombers.

Well said.

[Burgold]

On the issue of Israel killing innocents, how would you handle it? Seriously, what would you do?

Let's start with a typical scenario. A man dressed in slacks and a shirt ambles into town. He sits down in a crowded restaurant. Orders something. It's the lunch rush. He begins to eat. At the height of the rush hour he presses the detonator, killing himself and killing and hurting as many as possible.

Okay, there's the scenario. You know this is a planned attack, coordinated, supplied, and paid for and that Hamas has taken credit for it. What do you do? How do you do it without hurting a single "innocent?"

[Zguy28]

On the issue of Israel killing innocents, how would you handle it? Seriously, what would you do?

Let's start with a typical scenario. A man dressed in slacks and a shirt ambles into town. He sits down in a crowded restaurant. Orders something. It's the lunch rush. He begins to eat. At the height of the rush hour he presses the detonator, killing himself and killing and hurting as many as possible.

Okay, there's the scenario. You know this is a planned attack, coordinated, supplied, and paid for and that Hamas has taken credit for it. What do you do? How do you do it without hurting a single "innocent?"

.....crickets.....

[Burgold]

.....crickets.....

crickets indeed.

[RunClintonRun26]

JMS, thank you for offering some clarity on the issue and not leaving me out here on this island all by myself. . .lol

I still get the feeling that there is little self-blame by the Israelis . . . or blame by the U.S. towards Israel for that matter, as there is still hardly anyone on this board who will say that Israel plays an even larger role in this matter . . . And like I said earlier, the simplistic mentality that many of you have is very offensive and uninformed. Like JMS said, you cannot equate all Palestinians with Al Qaeda and suicide bombers. And to say that if they were to stop reacting to the subjugation at the hand of Israel, then there will be peace, is to ignore what Israel has done.

[JMS]

On the issue of Israel killing innocents, how would you handle it? Seriously, what would you do?

Let's start with a typical scenario. A man dressed in slacks and a shirt ambles into town. He sits down in a crowded restaurant. Orders something. It's the lunch rush. He begins to eat. At the height of the rush hour he presses the detonator, killing himself and killing and hurting as many as possible.

Okay, there's the scenario. You know this is a planned attack, coordinated, supplied, and paid for and that Hamas has taken credit for it. What do you do? How do you do it without hurting a single "innocent?"

So what are you justifying with this line of logic? The hellfire missle attacks on crowded appartment buildings? Using military snipers against children throwing rocks executing a couple every day for more than a year in the hopes they will wise up and lay down for you? ( by children I mean eleven years olds some as young as eight? ) How about hellfire missle attacks on automobiles on crowded city streets where you get your man; only you also kill his two sisters and half a dozen folks doing the weekly shopping?

Or are you justifying the Sabra and Chatila in 1982 where Israeli courts found Ariel Sharon responsible for the mass murder of more than 600 women and children? Perhaps its the Qibya massacres where Ariel Sharon lead a military assault on an unarmed village killing 70 civilians mostly women and children hiding in the basements of their homes... This Resulting in the United States suspending aid.

That's what you're attempting to justify, the wanton and ongoing killing of innocent civilians on a 10 to one scale because.... "Hey what else are we supposed to do?"

I tell you what I would do If I was a guy from a country which was supplying the means for most of the innocent deaths over there... I would look for a better way. I would be open to a better way. I would take chances to find a better way. I would read books by folks who have worked for a better way for going on four decades.

[Burgold]

JMS,

You didn't answer the scenario. The question is what would YOU do. If I wanted to stretch it, I could guess your answer is what they did after that scenario times 3,000, but I asked you what would you do? How would you do better? How would you react to the scenario? Your answer was plain avoidance.

[Burgold]

A secondary question, in your worldview, do Palestinian bystanders or innocents bare any guilt for not attempting to police themselves or attempting to curtail terror attacks? Is a lack to curb terror attacks from within viewed as approval for the attacks against Israel in Palestine? How do you define innocent? Is an innocent someone who has no relation, knowledge, or has never aided in anyway anyone involved directly or indirectly with terrorism?

[JMS]

JMS,

You didn't answer the scenario. The question is what would YOU do. If I wanted to stretch it, I could guess your answer is what they did after that scenario times 3,000, but I asked you what would you do? How would you do better? How would you react to the scenario? Your answer was plain avoidance.

I'm not avoiding anything.. I'm trying to tell you that your emotional argument is just as valid coming from the other side. The rightious outrage I would feel if someone killed my innocent wife and children would be just as valid were I a Moslem or a Jew. Were I American, European, or Middle Eastern. The fact that it happens 10 times more often to a Palistinian/Arab families destroys your entire emotional justification argument.

What would I do.. I don't think I would look for 10 innocent wives and children on the other side of the conflict to appease my lose. I hope, I would look for a better way. I hope, I would be open to a better way.

[JMS]

JMS, thank you for offering some clarity on the issue and not leaving me out here on this island all by myself. . .lol

I still get the feeling that there is little self-blame by the Israelis . . . or blame by the U.S. towards Israel for that matter, as there is still hardly anyone on this board who will say that Israel plays an even larger role in this matter . . . And like I said earlier, the simplistic mentality that many of you have is very offensive and uninformed. Like JMS said, you cannot equate all Palestinians with Al Qaeda and suicide bombers. And to say that if they were to stop reacting to the subjugation at the hand of Israel, then there will be peace, is to ignore what Israel has done.

As I said before, There is great public debate within Israel. Much more infact than in the United States where good people have no clue to our own influence and culpability in this ongoing tragedy.

[Burgold]

Okay, you would look for a better way. I'm trying to ignore the inciteful statements for the time being.

Would that be to find people in charge and arrange a cease fire? No, you wouldn't do that, because in hindsight you know that every ceasefire has only led to an increase in terror attacks. You would be too wise to try that.

Would you remove your own people and offer them land? No, because that too would be only an incitement to violence? Would you go through a second party? You might try that again, but you know that over and over again, they have smiled and nodded to the third party, then commenced with more attacks, proclaiming that every third party is biased and no agreement is sufficient even to the extent that it would be worthwhile to continue talking.

Would you do absolutely nothing and try to let them wear themselves out. Israel even tried that for a time except that nonretaliation encouraged more attacks also.

It's the easiest thing in the world to say you would look for a better way and then blame the other guy. In my scenario, the only solution you offered so far is "I would read books" and look for a better way. That, in itself, is telling.

[Burgold]

As I said before, There is great public debate within Israel. Much more infact than in the United States where good people have no clue to our own influence and culpability in this ongoing tragedy.

JMS,

Your stuck on the blame game. I said at the very beginning of this thread that Israel shares some of the blame and has blood on its hands. (I think it was this thread. THere have been quite a few like this one around recently )Others agreed with me. Now, I ask you to move beyond assigning blame. Part of the reason, why they haven't resolved the Palestinian/Israel conflict is the chicken/egg dance, this you started it, it's your fault tug-of-war.

[Zguy28]

JMS, thank you for offering some clarity on the issue and not leaving me out here on this island all by myself. . .lol

I still get the feeling that there is little self-blame by the Israelis . . . or blame by the U.S. towards Israel for that matter, as there is still hardly anyone on this board who will say that Israel plays an even larger role in this matter . . . And like I said earlier, the simplistic mentality that many of you have is very offensive and uninformed. Like JMS said, you cannot equate all Palestinians with Al Qaeda and suicide bombers. And to say that if they were to stop reacting to the subjugation at the hand of Israel, then there will be peace, is to ignore what Israel has done.

As I said before, There is great public debate within Israel. Much more infact than in the United States where good people have no clue to our own influence and culpability in this ongoing tragedy.

Let us look at what both sides are trying to accomplish in this 'conflict'.

Palestinians - independent state or wholesale destruction of state of Israel. Which is it?

Israel - protect citizens and land currently occupied (no pun intended) by them.

[JMS]

A secondary question, in your worldview, do Palestinian bystanders or innocents bare any guilt for not attempting to police themselves or attempting to curtail terror attacks?

Doesn't innocent mean they are free from guilt? As for not "attempting" to police themselves; wasn't it Israel which destroyed the infrastructure of governence in the occupied territories by invading solely to destroy the ability to govern. A "punitive" expedition they called it..Didn't they plant four tanks on Yasser's front yard and keep him from even leaving his office for the last years of his life? Didn't Israel specifically target the civil police force that Yasser had built? 1999 was the last year no Israeli died due to terrorism. That police force in cooperation with the Israeli IDF accomplished that. 1999 was when the Palistinians had the means to police themselves before Israel shattered their government.

Currently Israel withholds the taxes which are collect from the Palistinians on behalf of the Palistinian government. Currently Israel also withholds the American aid which our Congress mandated should go to the Palistinian government. So the police and civil authorities haven't been paid in many months; Hard to hold Palistinians accountable for not governing themselves when the means are actively being denied to them.

Is a lack to curb terror attacks from within viewed as approval for the attacks against Israel in Palestine?

I failed to stop the Oklahoma federal building attack. Is that what you mean by my failure equating to my approval? Come to think of it, you failed to stop that attack yourself didn't you?

How do you define innocent?

My world view uses websters...

in·no·cent

1.free from moral wrong; without sin; pure: innocent children.

2.free from legal or specific wrong; guiltless: innocent of the crime.

3.not involving evil intent or motive: an innocent misrepresentation.

4.not causing physical or moral injury; harmless: innocent fun.

Is an innocent someone who has no relation, knowledge, or has never aided in anyway anyone involved directly or indirectly with terrorism?

You can narrow the definition of innocent to exclude the entire population of the middle east on both sides. Luckly we have definitions for words which protect us from such intelectual masterbation.