Zionist Ideology and the Reality of Israel (very long but very worth it)

[Air Force Cane]

"People like Rabin and Abbas were/are being undermined by people like Hamas and Sharon"

Rabin has been dead for TEN years now, and Sharon has been out of office for more than a year. What are you talking about?!!

[JMS]

I think it's interesting that you pose the question of a democratically elected Hamas--right now in Gaza, they are about an inch away from a full-fledged civil war, which Hamas instigated by knocking off a senior Fatah member.

Actually two children of a Fatah security officer were killed. Hamas has denied any connection to the murders.

This is what Arafat's presence actually prevented from occurring. Now, you have moderate hardliners and extremists fighting for power,

I agree with that.

when back during the Clinton years, Arafat could have accepted Rabin's offer for a 2-state solution. Instead, he started the second intifada, which is now taking place internally.

Not even Israeli's think Yasser started the Intifada, They blame Yasser for not controlling them. The second Intifada like the first one began spontaniously and grew to critical mass in the absent of PLO leadership.

And yes, there is plenty of anti-semitisim in this country, but to claim that not supporting Israel is the same as being anti-semetic is a completely vacuous argument.

I agree with that.

There are fanatics on both sides, but you don't read much about Jewish Settlers blowing up buses in Ramallah.

Israeli Jewish settlers do in fact walk into mosques every now and then with machine guns laying waste to folks at prayer. Likewise it was Jewish settlers who killed the Israeli Prime Minister Rabin. Israeli radicals are definitely not innocent bistanders but active participants in this mess.

[Burgold]

Just for the sake of curiousity, what does every one think the Israelis would do if the Palestinian extremists put down their guns and bombs and lived peacefully? Let's say there was no terrorist attack in Israel for five years. What do you think Israel would do?

Would they provoke a war and attack the Palestinians? Would the Israelis get itchy and launch unjustified pre-emptive strikes? Would they begin trading or giving monetary support with the Palestinians? Would they breathe a sigh of relief and ignore them and their condition? What would happen?

[oisn1]

"People like Rabin and Abbas were/are being undermined by people like Hamas and Sharon"

Rabin has been dead for TEN years now, and Sharon has been out of office for more than a year. What are you talking about?!!

I picked the best example of good, moderate people being undermined by radical, fringe groups, hence the "were" part.

[oisn1]

Just for the sake of curiousity, what does every one think the Israelis would do if the Palestinian extremists put down their guns and bombs and lived peacefully? Let's say there was no terrorist attack in Israel for five years. What do you think Israel would do?

Would they provoke a war and attack the Palestinians? Would the Israelis get itchy and launch unjustified pre-emptive strikes? Would they begin trading or giving monetary support with the Palestinians? Would they breathe a sigh of relief and ignore them and their condition? What would happen?

That's very tough to say. Why? The hardline elements of both parties will not let that happen. Do you think Sharon had a plan when he walked into the most holy Muslim mosque with armed gunmen? Do you think Hamas has a plan when they suicide bomb during a cease-fire? Do you think the military has a plan when they bulldoze whole neighborhoods "looking" for terrorists? I mean, hardline factions are preventing peace. They both want to keep power. Hamas is keeping power by playing on Palestinian emotions. Israeli Generals get to get more funding and hardline Israeli sects get to keep power through their need of "security".

I suggest you watch a movie called "Gaza Strip".

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0329112/

It's a story of the conflict from a Palestinian perspective. It might be hard to find considering that it is biased to the Palestinian side. I ask everyone to check it out, not because of some ill-informed attempt at swaying your opinions, but rather to just watch it and get an idea of how both sides feel. To see how Palestinians really live, to see their lives, to see their pain, it changes your opinion. It's not just about Israelis anymore, it's about both people. It's about finding a solution for people that is REASONABLE.

It's hard to understand why some Palestinians won't give up terrorism, but after watching the movie, you can see why. It still DOESN'T change the fact that terrorism is wrong, but when you see what some people have (or lack thereof), you will understand why some people resort to terrorism.

[Burgold]

I appreciate your answer. You can't envision five years without an attack, so I think you believe that Palestinian extremists and/or Israel's generals might try to instigate violence to rebegin the cycle. I think that if that cease fire could prove lasting then there would be peace, where it might falll apart is that the Palestinians might still be suffering and the blame would need to get vented somewhere.

[JMS]

Just for the sake of curiousity, what does every one think the Israelis would do if the Palestinian extremists put down their guns and bombs and lived peacefully? Let's say there was no terrorist attack in Israel for five years. What do you think Israel would do?

Would they provoke a war and attack the Palestinians? Would the Israelis get itchy and launch unjustified pre-emptive strikes? Would they begin trading or giving monetary support with the Palestinians? Would they breathe a sigh of relief and ignore them and their condition? What would happen?

They would do the same thing they are doing now... Only cheaper and more efficiently. They would continue to grow their illegal settlements in the west bank. They would continue to seek massive immigration from eastern Europe to compensate for the superior Arab birth rate in the occupied territories and Israel proper. They would continue to use the bulk of the natural resources to the detriment of the Arabs who's lands those resources exist on. They would continue to live in the homes of the folks they displaced are are warehousing in the occupied territories.

The Palistinian "resistance" is irrelivent. Terrorism is irrelivent. It's a terrible thing when a bomb goes off in a disco and kills half a dozen innocent Israelis. It's also militaryly insignificant. Terrorism doesn't threaten Israels existance, It doesn't effect their policies other than cracking down on the Palistinians. It hasn't made one bit of difference in the expansion of the settlements which is the Palistinians #1 issue short of a negotiated peace.

[skins4eva]

Actually two children of a Fatah security officer were killed. Hamas has denied any connection to the murders.

You'll excuse me if I don't take Hamas' word for it.

Not even Israeli's think Yasser started the Intifada, They blame Yasser for not controlling them. The second Intifada like the first one began spontaniously and grew to critical mass in the absent of PLO leadership.

He may not have "started it" but he certainly did not try to stop it, which he could have done.

Israeli Jewish settlers do in fact walk into mosques every now and then with machine guns laying waste to folks at prayer. Likewise it was Jewish settlers who killed the Israeli Prime Minister Rabin.

Your first assertion here--if you are going to throw it out there, back it up with some evidence. The second assertion--Rabin indeed was killed by an Israeli, it's called an assassination. It's happened in this country before as well, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

You also seem to ignore the fact that Israel often completely ignores the actions of the Palestinians, who are consistently trying to destroy them.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/22/AR2006122200267.html

If it were the other way around, there would a front page article on CNN about Israeli aggression.

"The Palestinian infighting has coincided with stepped-up rocket attacks on Israeli territory that have destabilized a shaky cease-fire between militant factions and Israel, including one fired at Israel on Friday and six on Thursday. The attacks Thursday wounded three Palestinian children when a rocket veered off course.

Israeli officials say Palestinian militants have fired nearly 50 rockets since the Nov. 26 truce took effect. Israel has not retaliated, but Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned this week that his patience was wearing thin."

Can you imagine if the US were receiving indiscriminate rocket attacks? I find it interesting that people such as you argue in support of a group who use religion to mask their fascist agenda. Their interpretation of Islam has no logic, has no boundary and therefore cannot be debated rationally. The constant blame torward Israel seems entirely disingenuous to me--if any of us were in Israel's position, we would act the same way. The difference is that Israel would be content to coexist peacefully (see Jordan, see Egypt)--but the Palestinians are led by leaders who do nothing but line their own pockets while exploiting their peoples' hatred for Israel and deflecting their citizens miserable living conditions onto the "zionist" enemy.

[JMS]

You'll excuse me if I don't take Hamas' word for it.

( about Hamas not being responsible for the attack and murder of the two young children of a Fatah security officer )

You don't need to ask me for a pardon. Fatah obviously doesn't believe Hamas either. I was just saying, Hamas has denied any responsibility several times, including at the childrens funeral.

He may not have "started it" but he certainly did not try to stop it, which he could have done.

That's Israel's position. Not that Yasser organized them or had anything to do with running them as you asserted.

Your first assertion here ( about Israeli settlers killing Moslems in mosques with machine guns and generally doing some f'ed up Sh&t)--if you are going to throw it out there, back it up with some evidence.

Dr. Baruch Goldstein, who on Feb. 25, 1994 shot to death 29 Palestinian men and boys as they prayed at the Ibrahimi mosque in Hebron.

Jan 1 1997, when Israeli settler and soldier Noam Friedman walked into the Hebron market and opened fire on Palestinian shoppers, wounding eight.

Rabbi Yousef Falay living in the West Bank has called on the Israeli government to use their troops to kill all Palestinian males more than 13 years old in a bid to end Palestinian presence on this earth. Monday, 18 September 2006

http://rhodonpublicaffairs.blogspot.com/2006/09/another-rabbi-advocates-mass-murder.html

The second assertion--Rabin indeed was killed by an Israeli, it's called an assassination. It's happened in this country before as well, so I'm not entirely sure what your point is.

The point is that Rabin wasn't killed by a lone gunman like Lincoln or Kennedy. Rabin was killed by a radical Israeli settler group who took responsibility for the killing. The point is that the Israeli settlers hold some fairly f'ed up ideas and they aren't just punching bags for the Palistinians... They are definitely part of this mess, as I said.

You also seem to ignore the fact that Israel often completely ignores the actions of the Palestinians, who are consistently trying to destroy them.

I don't ignore it. I don't condone it.

If it were the other way around, there would a front page article on CNN about Israeli aggression.

What Israel has ignored since their campagn against Lebonon is in no way comparable to what Lebonon suffered as Israel's hand. Israel bombed Lebonon back to the stone ages and very likely pushed a peaceful pro western democracy into Iran and Syria's hands for good.... Way to go!!

I find it interesting that people such as you argue in support of a group (Hezbollah) who use religion to mask their fascist agenda.

I'm not argueing for either group using religous for a fascist agenda. Quite the opposite. I'm arguing that neither group is blameless. Neither group is even trying to be better than the other group. Both sides have their extremists. Both sides have their moderates. I am not arguing that Hezbollah is better than Israel.

If any of us were in Israel's position, we would act the same way.

Israel put themselves into this position. And chooses every day to continue to expand their settlements and to provoke. Israel chooses to live by the sword. I'm not saying the Palistinians and other Arabs haven't killed innocent Israelis. What I'm saying is that for every innocent Israeli killed Israel kills 10 innocent Palistinians/Arabs and has for more than a decade.

The difference is that Israel would be content to coexist peacefully (see Jordan, see Egypt)--

I don't believe Israel is content to coexist peacefully with the Palistinians except on their terms, which are draconian. We take the land, We take you homes, We use most of the water, You can't drill wells, We have all the rights, You have no rights. If that's what you mean by "content to coexist".. Would Israel agree to "coexist" with the Palistinians in a secular state where both Jews and Arabs were equal? I don't think so... Israel is a country established and maintained on religous lines. The vast majority of the Palistinians are not alloud to coexist except outside of Israel. And unfortunately for them, Israel is actively expanding into even the lands Israel pushed to.

but the Palestinians are led by leaders who do nothing but line their own pockets while exploiting their peoples' hatred for Israel and deflecting their citizens miserable living conditions onto the "zionist" enemy.

Who elected a convicted War criminal for the PM? Arial Sharon has been convicted in Israeli courts for two attrocities ( responsible for killing hundreds of unarmed women and chindren.. ), and the people of Israel picked him as leader. I don't disagree with you about the Palistinian choice of electing Hamas, but clearly that's the mirror image of Israel electing Sharon. Netanyahoo isn't any better than Sharon, he just doesn't have the convictions.