Liberal Arts and Science

[twa]

Would you recomend it for your kid?

And is it a disadvantage over a major college degree?

http://trinity.edu/

I was leaning towards UH or Rice,but I must admit we were impressed with Trinity.

Any "educated" opinions to help since I have no college experience?????

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Liberal arts major here...

No, it definately isn't a disadvantage unless he really wants to be a doctor or psychiatrist or something with a specific field. I don't have a major but I have 3 minors in communications, political science, and sociology. Which at WVU= a liberal arts degree. Not just WVU now it is everywhere. It's called Multiedisiplinary Sudies. I got an inern last semester for a congressman and I think it could lead somewhere.

Anyway degrees don't matter as much they used to so I say that Liberal Arts is the way to go if he still is uncertain about what he wants.

[twa]

It's a she (not that it matters) but she is into chemistry/physics which is why I"m not sure,though they presented a convincing case for thier programs.

I guess I doubted they were into hard science.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Liberal arts major here...

My take is that liberal arts majors are for kids who don't really know what they want in life and will figure it out after school. I'm not using my major (English, Creative Writing concentration) at ALL. I just did it to get through college.

As an aside, if you want your kids to make good money out of school and have enough for a good retirement home for you and the Mrs. later on...tell em to think differently.

[project myu]

Graduated with a degree in International Business and am planning to take one more class sometime in the near future to complete my second major in Finance.

From what I can tell, now that I'm working, it doesn't matter if you are a liberal arts major AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A HIGH GPA. If you're a liberal arts major with a crappy GPA... You're screwed.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Graduated with a degree in International Business and am planning to take one more class sometime in the near future to complete my second major in Finance.

From what I can tell, now that I'm working, it doesn't matter if you are a liberal arts major AS LONG AS YOU HAVE A HIGH GPA. If you're a liberal arts major with a crappy GPA... You're screwed.

What is a crappy GPA to you?

I got a low B average right now.....am I screwed??

[btfoom]

It's a she (not that it matters) but she is into chemistry/physics which is why I"m not sure,though they presented a convincing case for thier programs.

I guess I doubted they were into hard science.

I will start by telling you that I am biased as I am an Engineer (UMD, 1999 - yes, I am old). All items listed below are my personal experience (and those of others I work with).

IMHO, if your daughter (or other relative/friend, etc) is interested in science, that engineering or scientific degrees are the best way to go.

First, science/math/engineering (SME) degrees are generally held in higher regard by employers than liberal arts (LA) majors. The reason is that while there are people who go into LA do so because they are interested in that field, there are also lots of people who do so because it is perceived as easier.

Second, it is easier to move from an SME type degree to an LA field than vice-versa.

Third, the SME field teaches kids how to think (ex logic, problem solving) and reason. There are absolutes and kids learn how the world around them behaves. This is a very important tool in life.

Last, and you won't hear this in University books/admissions: The percentage of women who go into SME fields is FAR below the percentage of those who go into other fields. Women engineers, scientists, mathematicians, etc are in HIGH demand in the work place. [i know this isn't PC, but women in these fields are also more highly sought after for girlfriends/wives because there are so few of them.]

Hope this helps.

[jps36]

Liberal art colleges are really underrated in America. The top LAC's-- Amherst, Williams, and Swarthmore-- are just as good as Brown and Princeton. Liberal art colleges also offer a lot of advantages compared to national schools. They usually have smaller class sizes, which allow you to get to know your professor better. The atmosphere on a liberal arts college is also usually a lot more intimate than at other schools.

There are, however, some drawbacks. LAC's are strictly undergraduate oriented. They lack the graduate opportunities that are available at schools like UC Berkley and UMichigan. LAC's also tend to have more grade deflation than national universities.

Personally, out of all those schools that you listed, I would definitely go to Rice. Rice is one of the top schools in the nation.

[Duckus]

Your degree does not really matter in the end. The only thing that matters is that you go to a school that you REALLY enjoy and love. Most of college that you remember is the life experience, not the classes.

I was an international affairs major with a PSC and Economics minor and now I work at a financial/accounting firm downtown. I took ONE math class in college and now I do it for a living. I plan to do international work in a year or so, but really my major had no effect on what type of job I tried to get when I graduated.

[Duckus]

What is a crappy GPA to you?

I got a low B average right now.....am I screwed??

No – a lot of jobs don’t even care what your GPA was when you were in college. Though I had a really good GPA when I graduated, all my job interviews dealt with my past internships and job experience in the field. I think one or two interviews I did actually talked about my GPA at all, the rest were MUCH more interested in my experience.

If you have no relevant work experience, then you are screwed.

[redskingluvr]

If it were my kid, I would keep looking. If she has that aptitude for the sciences you mentioned, find schools on the cutting edge of research in fields she enjoys where she can make a difference both with scientific and ethical influence. Don't make her sit in the back of the bus if she has that interest and is smart.

[swaroopm]

Would you recomend it for your kid?

And is it a disadvantage over a major college degree?

http://trinity.edu/

I was leaning towards UH or Rice,but I must admit we were impressed with Trinity.

Any "educated" opinions to help since I have no college experience?????

It's a she (not that it matters) but she is into chemistry/physics which is why I"m not sure,though they presented a convincing case for thier programs.

I guess I doubted they were into hard science.

I did not attend a school like Trinity so I can't really comment on that type of experience. The upside is that she may get more personal attention than she would at a big university. I did an engineering degree at a big university with a serious graduate program, and I found that to be a very good experience. One catch about going to a place like Trinity is that, depending how serious she is about science, Trinity will not provide the (number and variety of) lab research opportunities that would be found at a bigger school with PhD programs. (A big school that is connected to a hospital or medical school will provide an even wider array of research opportunities.) This type of lab research experience is valuable if you want to go into industry as a scientist or go to graduate school in science or engineering. Also, just like your daughter, I went to college interested in chemistry and physics...and I came out with an engineering degree. Obviously my high school did not have an engineering program, and I didn't realize until I got to college (and tried it out) how much of a better fit engineering presented for me than science. A school like Trinity does not offer any engineering programs (outside of "engineering science"...) so she would not have that opportunity there. Depending how serious she is about chemistry/physics, I'd probably say this is the biggest drawback of going to a place like Trinity. If she is serious about pursuing chemistry or physics (or possibly engineering), and wants to stay in Texas, my personal advice would be to go to a place like Rice or UT-Austin because they will provide the best range of opportunities. LSU might also be one to consider that is not *too* far. Another thing to keep in mind is that a big university is like a big factory, and is a place where there are plenty of opportunities but also a place where you need to open your own doors, if that makes sense. If your daughter is not quite so independent and would be better-suited at a place where things are more "comfortable" (for lack of a better phrase), then a place like Trinity may suit her better. Anyway, I'd be happy to discuss this further with her (or anyone else here on es.com who is facing a similar quandary) - just send me a PM. I can probably give better advice about routes in science (for school and career) if I talk to someone and get a better idea of the person's interests, goals, and experience. (For example, if you're interested in science but haven't done especially well in high school science, you may benefit from the "closer confines" of a school like Trinity.) Of course, take my advice with a grain of salt because I'm biased due to my own good experience at a big university.

[Mr. S]

All liberal arts majors are pretty much bs degrees, and I agree with Spaceman.

I don't necessarily regret being a History major, but it sure makes finding a job much harder. At the time, I was thinking of staying for the masters in education program at JMU, but that idea didn't last too long. Then I had the idea of law school, so Im working on that right now in my "year off".

I have heard different stories about liberal arts, you pretty much can apply it to any job really that doesn't require specialized experience (like IT), but it's harder to get any job either. My advice is, if she does go for liberal arts, MAKE HER apply to good internships every summer. Don't try to let her talk you out of it one bit, if she does not agree with you initiially, she will in the end. I thoroughly regret not applying to various government internships each summer after college, but at the time, I was thinking "liberal arts is more fun and something I want to do". I pretty much did it just to get through college.

At least im glad I chose History as that is a big field for interest in law, something I am more driven to excel in now just for the sake that I think I can do well in it.

[ashburnskinsfan]

I agree with everything swaroopm said. I studied electrical engineering for my first degree and went on to do post-graduate physics research.

If she is in to physics, the labs she will have access to are a huge element of the quality of her education. Certain fields in physics (e.g. nuclear or high energy) take serious and expensive equipment and I can't see a smaller college supporting that as well. A larger university with strong engineering/sciences program will also have a much deeper faculty, and provide better access to future opportunities such as graduate programs in other colleges.

[ashburnskinsfan]

All liberal arts majors are pretty much bs degrees, and I agree with Spaceman.

I don't necessarily regret being a History major, but it sure makes finding a job much harder.

I can endorse this comment. I work in the software industry and we very,very rarely recruit people without a degree with a strong sciences component. Of course, she may not want to work in a technology field.

That said, I'd rate a strong liberal arts degree well ahead of the many "business communications" degrees that are popular today. While it may not help with a job at 21, the rigor of a good program is a great foundation for a next step in law or whatever path is chosen.

I also agree with Mr S. that having good summer interships will really differentiate you from the crowd, help you decide what you want to do, and in what size organization you want to work. When recruiters look at resumes, it is those experiences that stand out as everyone else they are looking at has the same type of degree, and their work experience is limited to retail or food service.

[twa]

I agree with everything swaroopm said. I studied electrical engineering for my first degree and went on to do post-graduate physics research.

If she is in to physics, the labs she will have access to are a huge element of the quality of her education. Certain fields in physics (e.g. nuclear or high energy) take serious and expensive equipment and I can't see a smaller college supporting that as well. A larger university with strong engineering/sciences program will also have a much deeper faculty, and provide better access to future opportunities such as graduate programs in other colleges.

That is my concern,though they seem to be well equipted in her interest

(photonics/quantum optics).

I suppose what I am looking for is whether more personal attention/opportunities and smaller classes outwiegh the more diverse but impersonal large programs.

A college smaller than her high school :laugh:, though highly rated and well funded just seems odd.

[ashburnskinsfan]

That is my concern,though they seem to be well equipted in her interest

(photonics/quantum optics).

I suppose what I am looking for is whether more personal attention/opportunities and smaller classes outwiegh the more diverse but impersonal large programs.

A college smaller than her high school :laugh:, though highly rated and well funded just seems odd.

I don't have the facts to judge her circumstances , but she seems kinda young to have picked out her physics specialization. Unless you know for sure that the physics faculty in the smaller college has a great reputation, you are more likely to find what she needs in a larger program.

[twa]

I don't have the facts to judge her circumstances , but she seems kinda young to have picked out her physics specialization. Unless you know for sure that the physics faculty in the smaller college has a great reputation, you are more likely to find what she needs in a larger program.

:laugh: Yeah it is way too early,I think she justs likes driving me nuts since I don't understand half of what she says anyway. The nearest I came to photonics is the photon torpedoes on Star Trek .

Probably just wait see who has the best offer and rank...this is out of my league.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I know that I have a very different view of education than many people here, so I'll make my comments from my beliefs and experiences and let the rest of you people have your discussion....

I have two parents who were educators with Master's Degrees. They told myself and my brothers that they would help us pay for college for any major OTHER THAN Liberal Arts. We had to have an idea as to what we wanted to do with the education or they would not put a single penny into our higher education. That really says something to me.

I also grew up in a hometown with a college (Wesleyan University) that has a large Lib. Arts population. We used to joke that parents payed $120K and the Professors took the kids aside two weeks before graduation and told them the only thing they'd ever learn in four years there. The secret words for the rest of their life.... "Would you like fries with that?"

Basically, I don't see the point in a Liberal Arts education. It doesn't qualify you to do anything more than a High School diploma does, so far as I am concerned. Unless you consider wasting $140K of your and your parent's money. If I were hiring people for a company, a Liberal Arts degree wouldn't mean anything more than that High School diploma or GED.

Just my thoughts.

[swaroopm]

That is my concern,though they seem to be well equipted in her interest

(photonics/quantum optics).

I suppose what I am looking for is whether more personal attention/opportunities and smaller classes outwiegh the more diverse but impersonal large programs.

A college smaller than her high school :laugh:, though highly rated and well funded just seems odd.

:laugh: Yeah it is way too early,I think she justs likes driving me nuts since I don't understand half of what she says anyway. The nearest I came to photonics is the photon torpedoes on Star Trek .

Probably just wait see who has the best offer and rank...this is out of my league.

From the information you had provided earlier, I had underestimated your daughter. If she is already serious enough about science to have a particular area that interests her, such as photonics or quantum optics, and you think she is serious about these subjects (not just interested in one thing today, something else tomorrow), I would strongly recommend that she avoid going to a place like Trinity. That is not to say that schools like Trinity do not offer a good education, but the opportunities to pursue advanced study and/or lab work in a specific area will be far more limited at a place like Trinity than at a bigger research university. Of course, the Trinity admissions people are not going to say that, but it's my strong opinion.

One way for her to compare would be to compare the list of physics courses offered at Trinity (for example) with the list of physics courses offered at UT-Austin (for example). Compare how many there are in her area of interest. This includes graduate classes; if she does well, she might be able to take graduate classes. Also, what if her area of interest changes? What opportunities are there then?

Another thing to keep in mind is that the odds of finding other students who share her specific interest(s) will be much greater at a bigger university. At a place like Trinity she will be fending for herself or pushing her professors when it comes to advanced topics. At a bigger school, she may find classmates with similar interests with whom she can study and learn advanced topics. One of the best parts of college is learning with (and from) your peers...so the more peers who share your academic interests, the greater the opportunity for learning.

Again, I am biased because of my good experience at a big university. Also, I don't mean to go on a rant about this. It's just, given the information you have provided thus far, I would say a liberal arts college is not the best choice for your daughter. Essentially my reaction is that if she is advanced enough to have specific areas of interest, you want to give her the best opportunity to pursue her interests. Rice, UT-Austin, or LSU might be suitable, and she might also want to look at other schools with strong programs in her area(s) of interest.

A smaller, liberal arts college can obviously offer a good education and a solid grounding in the sciences, but can only offer limited exposure to advanced topics. If she already has advanced topics that interest her, she should go to a place where she has the chance to study them (in the classroom and in the lab). It may be that she will get a head start in a career in those areas or it may be that she will find some other area that interests her more.

If she goes to a liberal arts college, she probably won't be able to pursue her specific interests seriously until graduate school, by which time students at other schools will have already studied those things and be ahead of her. Of course, it is definitely still possible to catch up later, but I don't see why one should put oneself at a disadvantage.

One other thing - I definitely recommend that she talk to people working in her area of interest and get advice on good schools for the topics that interest her. This would include professors, graduate students, or people in industry. For example, tell her to look up (on the web) two or three professors who work in her area of interest. It could be at any school; it doesn't have to be one she's applying to. Then she should contact them directly for advice. ("I'm interested in such and such subjects, can you give me some advice about colleges I should consider?") She should also ask to talk to one of the professor's graduate students for advice. The professor will be impressed that a high school student is advanced enough to have selected an area of interest and be pursuing it. There is no guarantee your daughter will pursue that area, but the professor will realize that and that's fine. That kind of thing is best figured out in college (which, again, is why you want to attend a college that gives you the opportunity to explore your area of interest seriously as well as try out other topics). If your daughter was on a path to the WNBA, you'd send her to talk to WNBA players and college basketball coaches because they have already been down the road that she may wish to travel. The same is true of a career in science or engineering; she should consult people who have gone down the road that interests her.

I just want to add that you really should not feel self-conscious or concerned about the fact that there is only so much help you can provide your daughter. I am not lucky enough to have any kids yet but I imagine it must be very difficult to see your child reach a point in life where you don't have all the answers for her anymore and there are other people who might be able to help her more than you can. This should not bother you in any way. Rather than being "out of your league," it's just out of your range of experience. If my kid was planning to work in your profession, I would be smart to send her to you for advice because you have experience with that stuff. The same way, you are smart to send your daughter to scientists, physicists, or whoever, people who have experience with the stuff that interests her.

[swaroopm]

I don't have the facts to judge her circumstances , but she seems kinda young to have picked out her physics specialization. Unless you know for sure that the physics faculty in the smaller college has a great reputation, you are more likely to find what she needs in a larger program.

Sorry, I will shut up soon. To me, it's insignificant what specialization she has picked out - I agree with ashburnskinsfan that she is young to have selected a specialization. Most likely, she does not have a great idea of what this area really entails, and once she is in college, wherever she goes, she may very well find something else that interests her more. While her specific preference is insignificant, the more significant thing to me is that she has anything picked out at all, if that makes sense.

[Mr. S]

a big school could be helpful if she changes her mind. If she wants to go into physics, im assuming she is pretty smart and has the measurable (GPA/SAT) to get into many places.

Also, one bit of advice told to me 5 years ago before I entered college, it is not necessarily where you go, it is what you do while you are there. A scenario, she goes to Po-Dunk U, but is like class president or president of the student scientists association and joins some good service frat and had done other academic work like research/produced a strong thesis, and a high gpa of course, that will obviously look better than person going to Brand Name U who barely graduates with a 3.0 gpa and has very few extracirriculars and no thesis or any major academic work, even if they are a science major.

[PleaseBlitz]

I dont know anyone with a Lib Arts degree that is using that in their career. Getting a LA degree basically tells employers that you are smart enough to get through college, but you didnt really learn any specific skills that will help you. Unless you want to teach.

I got my degrees in economics and finance. I use what i learned every day. Without those on my resume, there is a 0% chance that i would have been able to get any of the jobs ive had since college.