Bravo For Spurrier!

[bulldog]

"Spurrier is learning his NFL lessons, and his evolution apparently will include having more say in player-related decisions. Spurrier participated in the process but rarely insisted on having the final say on moves this past offseason while the team's front office picked the players, but he said yesterday he intends to be more involved now as he becomes more familiar with the players around the league and the player-acquisition process."

___________________________________________________

This is really the first affirmative statement we have seen that a more coherent and streamlined process for making decisions is going to take shape and that is a positive for this organization.

Spurrier now knows what qualities a quarterback and receiver have to have at this level to be capable of elevation to 'elite' status, something his Florida players were regularly recognized as being on the collegiate level.

Two different games, two different requirements

In terms of his involvement in personnel in the draft and free agency, all I can say is the sooner we boot Vinny Cerrato and his rotisserie football front office view the better.

There were too many hands in the till this past offseason and I think that is one of the reasons this team made some individual decisions that looked good on paper perhaps but have not resulted in the proper mix of skills and scheme at certain spots.

A head coach simply can't give away that much control over his own roster to the front office when that front office has not proven itself to be in the first rank.

Marty can do that in San Diego because Butler has a history of getting good players in the draft and free agency.

Most of the players that are making Marty look good right now were acquired in last year's draft on offense.

Butler got the best runner in the draft and then got the second best quarterback with the #33 selection.

And the Chargers went from an underskilled team at qb and rb to being one with a bright future at both spots.

And then you can add in other picks made like Fonoti that have come in and contributed right away and you have the makings of a very good team.

[Art]

Did you REALLY just quote Mark Maske and attribute it to Spurrier and a statement that we'll have a more streamlined process for personnel decisions? Are you kidding me? Mark Maske wrote the paragraph you quoted.

Steve Spurrier said the following, "Over time, certainly I want to do more of that," Spurrier said. "This is a team that was pretty well here. A lot of the players were here when I got here. The longer the coaches are here, the more of that kind of stuff we'll do. Certainly, I'd want to participate in offensive personnel areas, and then rely on our defensive coaches for the defensive side."

Now, I don't know that Spurrier's statement, and Maske's paraphrase are all that similar or all that different. According to the article, Spurrier did participate, along with Lewis and members of the front office, but, his general lack of familiarity with the NFL players allowed him to step back. Certainly as he knows more you'd expect him to weigh in with that knowledge.

But, I think quoting Mark Maske with the first affirmative statement of change is a bit of a reach. Don't you?

[SonnyJ]

I don't know how much decision-making power Cerrato has, but, even if you get rid of him, someone needs to take his place, so you're still going to have the same amout of hands in the till.

Isn't he essentially the chief scout? All teams have them, so it's not a "made-for-Vinny" position.

Vinny sure is a whipping boy around here, isn't he? I don't know enough fact about him either way, but, the only truly negative stuff I read about him is on message boards.

Where do you all get your info about Cerrato? I've never read anything negative (or really positive, for that matter) about him. He just seems to be there, in the background, like most anonymous scout-types.

[codeorama]

Start a "sign Ron Wolf petition" thread.

[@DCGoldPants]

go ahead, start one. Just like the Johnny U memorial stadium.

[Skeletor The Invincible]

You won't find a single Vinny supporter on this board.

(If I'm mistaken, please speak up. We'll be glad to regulate your thinking. )

Anyway, ever since Cerrato has been here, we've had poor drafts. No luck in the later rounds, etc.

(Of course, Arrington and Samuels were brought in here when Cerrato was drafting, says the Devil's Advocate.

Those were No Brainers, don't you agree?)

Seems like Spurrier will rely on his coaches to tell him who they like. I think he knows we have a weakness along the O line, and he's said that repeatedly over each of his press conferences.

During the draft, I think he'll tell his coaches what position he wants to draft, and that specific coach will recommend a player to draft. (IE- Kim Helton will recommend a guard to draft.)

Snyder will probably do the actual drafting. I think Snyder has come to realize that the talent evaluators and coaches are the guys who he should be listening to.

[Murilo Bustamante]

I'm a Vinny supporter.

The Vinny bashing is ridiculous. It basically boils down to giving credit for all his successes to other people, and blaming him for all the ills that ever happened at his teams.

In 2000, Vinny took a #12 and #24 pick and traded them for a #3 in March, weeks before the draft. This had never been done before. Because of that, we now have Chris Samuels, who by the way everyone said should have gone after Warrick (who Vinny bypassed). Do you remember life before Chris Samuels? Do you remember when what was a bad Chris Samuels' day now was a great day for Andre Johnson or Joe Patton?

When the draft came in 2000, the Jets ended up trading FOUR first round picks to get a LOWER pick than Vinny got for two. Does Vinny get any credit for this?

Anyway, Vinny isn't even in charge anymore- Snyder and MENDES are above him, so why don't you blame them?

[Art]

I don't think you can blame Vinny for the later round picks not working out here. I think you have to blame the fact that later round picks only work out when they are groomed and brought along slowly within a system so you draft those guys with a specific goal in mind. Then you change coaching staffs who have a different ideal in mind, and those late round projects aren't as valuable anymore. Then you get new ones. Then you change coaching staffs and those projects are no longer a good fit. Then you get new ones.

We have eight of 10 players remaining from this last draft. If we change coaching staffs again, you can probably count on one, or perhaps two of them working out. If we stand pat, you can probably find that six of them will be around and have varying degrees of ability and productivity on this team and in a system they have been groomed for.

The reason free agency is never really an an answer is because players are brought along to fit a specific system and when they are very good in that system it's often hard to get them to adjust to a new one. Trotter was a good gamble because he is young and even in a bad year will be ok. He will eventually, later this year and next year, start to flash the reasons he's a good player. He'll be a good player because he's young and able to work his way into a new system over time without being a bust because of his age.

I think we just need to stand pat for a few years and stay the course with a consistent draft methodology and plan for getting those players to produce.

[SonnyJ]

Casserly's draft record wasn't all that great, either. You don't see the virulent hatred of him that you do for Cerrato.

It seems to me that Cerrato only ran one draft here. The draft was for a different regime. It netted the team two stars. Sure, you can say now that they were no-brainers, but how many high picks are busts or merely average? MB pointed out Warrick. Is he part of the Witness Protection Program? I never hear his name anymore. Other picks from 2K stuck initially, but were run off by Marty (maybe for good reason, maybe he just wanted his guys). I seem to remember the Redskins really wanted Brady that year in the 6th, but the Pats got him a couple of picks ahead of them. Sometimes it's a crap shoot.

Cerrato had a hand in this draft, too. I can't believe people already want to say what a wasted draft it was. Isn't there such a thing as patience? We've at least seen some promise from some of these guys. But, some fans who were convinced that letting Sage go because of his exciting potential will in the next breath declare that Ramsey, Betts, Russell, Bauman, Scott, etc., are camp fodder. Give it time, people.

I'm not claiming devotion to Vinny here. I'm just saying that people have latched onto him as a scapegoat for the organization. It has to run deeper than the drafting - he doesn't have enough of a history with the team to provoke such animosity. I've just never seen any reported, factual accounts to support such the claim that he is a pox on the Redskins house.

[REDSKINGATOR11]

Vinny is Snyder's lap dog.

[fansince62]

we all know that this team has been letting blood for years now due to bad selections in the lower rounds (when we had them). I confess that I don't know the overall strategy. But, just from the last draft, one can easily say...huh?

- baumann & lott. don't care how good they were in college. fact is, the trend now is for speedy dbs with size. both these guys are pip squeeks and lost as many physical battles as they won during the preseason. 5'8"/5'9" dbs short of miracles like daryl simply don't cut it against today's receivers and running backs.

- betts. the jury is still out. but he hasn't struck me as the next incarnation of deuce or marshal. wasted pick when we should have gone with a de or guard/center.

- coleman. gone. why not draft special teams players in the lower rounds?

- grau. gone. go to a game. you can tell he didn't have the size.

- royal. injured. not so bad a pick in retrospect. we'll see.

- the utah wr. injury prone his whole career. a reach.

- QB. total confusion. if he is the future play him. if you need to find out whether he his the future, play him. if he is the future then benching him and allowing him time to grow - to a point - is acceptable. it's not clear whether we will be looking at QBs again next draft.

- rock. special teams and not much else. willing to givev this one some time. but again.....5' midget. rag doll for 6'4''/300lb+ tackles.

other teams do target needs and they do move startes into the lineup. exccept for the no-brainers we don't. it's not even clear we have a strategy.

[Reaganaut]

I'm a Vinnie Ceratto supporter.

Signed,

Mr. Hyde

[Montilar]

Because of that, we now have Chris Samuels, who by the way everyone said should have gone after Warrick (who Vinny bypassed).

EVERYONE?

I wanted samuels BEFORE lavar. I wanted Courtney Brown BEFORE lavar. I wanted cleveland to take lavar obviously, leaving us the OT and DE we needed.

Turthfully I would of kept all three #1's, taking Samuels with the #2, and tried to get Urlacher with the second one. Which still would of taken some wrangling.

I was spouting off Samuels "no sack" college record whle many others were concerned that he was coming off an injury and might be injury prone since he'd had one injury in his college career.

I didn't want Warrick at all.

[bulldog]

Stability in an organization IS important to player development, agreed.

But what bothered me at first under THIS administration was Spurrier's almost off-handed way of seeding all control and responsibility to others to make personnel decisions when it is HE that has to answer most directly for the product that is put out on the field.

Now, Wuerffel and the Gator failures....err receivers , those are mistakes in judgment that Spurrier will have to take responsibility for on his own THIS year.

But who we take in the draft and who we sign to big free agent dollars DOES have an effect on what lattitude Spurrier has to make moves of his own after the fact to improve the roster when holes spring up as they have already just six games in on the line and elsewhere

What I try to do is set a reasonable tone. I don't expect a 14-2 record out of a club with 8-8 or 9-7 talent.

At the same time I am not a yellow dog :laugh:, that is going to sit down and be a fire hydrant for Cerrato and Snyder and their butt boy regardless of the decisions they or others make.

As a fan you ROOT for the team each week, but as a thinking person you evaluate what happens without a set of blinders on.

I see some here on the board that are more than willing to criticize a coach or front office figure AFTER they are gone, but while they are here anyone who criticizes them is cast as being disloyal or misinformed.

That happened at points last year when Marty took us on the roller coaster ride from 0-5 to 8-8.

I thought he should go at 0-4 AND at 8-8.

Some had his back until he was fired and then suggested he was being unreasonable about his role and that was why he was let go by our all-knowing leader :laugh:

Marty didn't renegotiate his terms of service with the club, Snyder did

And when Snyder changed his mind about whom should be making decisions in the draft room Marty instantly became the wrong person for the job.

What is slightly amusing and perhaps ironic is that IF Spurrier is successful here and wants to be more so he is probably going to have to wrest even more control and authority away from the front office and the owner in terms of personnel decisions.

It will be interesting to see if Spurrier brings this team back to 10-6 or better in 2003 whether Snyder will cede some of the power or turn around and find an excuse to let Spurrier go, just as he did with Marty.

[riggins44]

When Vinny was at 49ers he pushed for them to take Jim Druckenmiller over Jake Plummer. To me, that says a lot.

Vinny hasn't shown to be a great judge of talent.

The 2000 Draft success was all set up with our trade with

Saints when Ditka gave up teh store for Ricky Williams.

[hail2skins]

Reading this thread and the article in today's Post again makes me wonder about what kind of promises we made to Marvin Lewis to lure him here. When I hear Spurrier respond to Steve Czaban's question the other night about having any regrets about not pursuing Bledsoe with "Well, would've been nice if we had the money" when, at the same time, we were giving big dollars to Wynn and Trotter to add to a defensive unit that had been good the previous year, well, things that make you go hmmmmmm.........

Then again, a large part of me is glad we didn't go after Drew, and hope that Ramsey turns out well........even in the free agency/salary cap era, I'd rather create our own heroes then borrow others. Now if we can just get him some good interior linemen and a marquee receiver.............

[Mr. Redskin]

We all knew Spurrier had to get more involved either sooner or later, will atleast I did. Right now, Spurrier is getting a vast taste of reality, reality that alot of people knew was coming(coaches). Eventhough we looked somewhat decent during the pre-season games, it was only pre-season, plan and simple.

Again, what Spurrier is getting now is the reality of the NFL. You cannot win with less-than talent in some of your major areas like QB, OL, DL and less-than QB's throwing to less-than receivers. This kind of formula may work in College(in some cases), but not in the NFL on most Sundays.

Also, Spurrier had to get more involved, he had no choice. Spurrier was the one that stated he could win with these same players that's getting lumps and bumps every sunday. Oops(did he say that), that he could win with these players :laugh: Yes! he did. Look, on offense we don't scare anyone, and Spurrier is starting to wise up very quickly here by getting more involved. We all knew that Spurrier was stubborn as hell, but I knew eventually other teams would knock that stubbornness right outta that visor of his if he didn't smarten up.

Folks! what we are seeing on most Sundays are real ugly, well smugly is a better term for this kind of play week-in and week-out.

Remember, during the draft Spurrier was so ****y he didn't need to get involved in all that stuff that comes along with drafting players. All he wanted to do was just get the players Snyder and Cerrato and the rest of the "Rat Pack" gave him, and put them on the playing field:shootinth . :hammer: Wrong answer Spurrier, you better know who your drafting and what kind of impact player your getting or not getting. This game is somewhat like a puzzle, and square pegs are not going to fit in a round hole, not in the NFL, which stands for (NOT FOR LONG).

[indyskinsfan]

Way cool Art and I have to stand by that. It is now my creed.

No matter how ugly it gets, give 'em time, not he**. Yeah, I know I had to change my tune, but I don't think it 's worth self destructing.

Yes I bashed Vinny shamelessly and when I thought it was fair in doing so, as he questions the fans intelligence (no fans buying tickets no players). Of course we know they will always sell tickets, but then the VET has shown that even the lovable house can turn into a nightmare. Most Eagles fans don't condone the actions of some, but because it spreads, it can get out of hand. Vinny knows it all begins with who you bring in to play and the end product is what either has the fans wanting more and wishing you pack your bags and leave. He got the two no brainer acquisitions, because the owner was new and had deep pockets. Most NFL coaches wouldn't have asked for that and let alone an owner having two #1's back to back, for today's money. It was often said that Samuels college leg injuries could come back to haunt him. Hopefully this isn't so.

As for Vinny being lousy, well lets just say, he's the top dog scout and he seems to only lean on no brainer names we all knew about. Beatherd could get 2/3' s of right with names you never heard of. He** even Dallas has a penchant for that.

Like I said before Vinny gets his info from ESPN, the newspapers , just like we already do. So what's new and what has he done for us lately?

[88Comrade2000]

Originally posted by codeorama

Start a "sign Ron Wolf petition" thread.

Stop deluding yourself. No way in hell Synder gives up power to a true GM and no elite GM would agree to take the job, knowing Snyder will have his say in player personnel.