Redskins Football 101

[Beauty is Only]

I'm a Redskins fan first, an NFL fan second. I have followed the 'Skins since the '80s. My allegiance has always been more of an emotional bond, though, rather than one based on knowledge (stats, formations, etc.). I do understand the basics of football on the whole, but I've never delved deeply into the particulars. I'd like to deepen and broaden my knowledge.

I know there are some football geeks on this site who would be able to help me. I'd like to know more about offensive/defensive formations/philosophies and schemes particularly as they relate to the 'Skins in the Gibbs era (his first stint and his current one).

Here are some of the questions I'd like to have answered:

-What defensive/offensive schemes/formations/philosophies were used in the 'Skins "glory years" in the 80s and 90s? How did these schemes differ from other schemes in use at the time (i.e., how did/does the West Coast offense differ from Gibbs' offense?)

-How do the 'Skins offensive/defensive formations/philosophies differ from others in use today?

-What is the Don Coryell offensive philosophy? How was it innovative? Who are some others (besides Gibbs and Saunders) who still use his ideas in their offenses?

-What's the major difference between Gibbs' philosophy on offense and Saunders'?

-What is Gregg Williams' defensive philosophy? What makes it so hard to counter?

Anybody got the guts to take this one on? I know some who post here are probably more than capable of answering these questions. I'm awaiting your expert insights.

[VAsBeachBoy]

Dude I think my answer would kind of corellate to everyone elses sentiments. Do your own work bro. Nobody really has the time to go and do a bunch of work for you for absolutely no reason. Theres just really isn't much sense in this request. Just look around the internet if your interested in this stuff. Kind of a shizzit or get off the pot situation me thinks.

[21KillzCowboys]

Dude I think my answer would kind of corellate to everyone elses sentiments. Do your own work bro. Nobody really has the time to go and do a bunch of work for you for absolutely no reason. Theres just really isn't much sense in this request. Just look around the internet if your interested in this stuff. Kind of a shizzit or get off the pot situation me thinks.

Why don't you just say, "I don't know" instead of writing a paragraph of garbage?!

[JohnLockesGhost]

Dude I think my answer would kind of corellate to everyone elses sentiments. Do your own work bro. Nobody really has the time to go and do a bunch of work for you for absolutely no reason. Theres just really isn't much sense in this request. Just look around the internet if your interested in this stuff. Kind of a shizzit or get off the pot situation me thinks.

Easy, hass. Did it ever occur to you that he IS doing research by asking knowledgable people on this message board? I for one am in a similar situation to this man. I've never really "studied" football, I just cheer my head off for the Skins. I'd be interested in some thoughtful responses to his question, not snide posts like yours.

[chiramu]

I have a question that is more about Redskins history than fact and figures.

We know that discipline under Norv Turner was non-existant. But what happened under Marty SpellingBlinder? Why didn't the team do well? How come he's working out so well at San Diego?

[GoSkins561]

Dude I think my answer would kind of corellate to everyone elses sentiments. Do your own work bro. Nobody really has the time to go and do a bunch of work for you for absolutely no reason. Theres just really isn't much sense in this request. Just look around the internet if your interested in this stuff. Kind of a shizzit or get off the pot situation me thinks.

I thought it was a great post, I am not sure why you jumped all over him the way you did. I would have been interested in seeing the discussion the various opinions his questions would have generated.

[mrahome]

I may be able to help a little.

"how did/does the West Coast offense differ from Gibbs' offense?"

The West Coast relied on the QB taking either a 3, 5 or 7 step drop and delivering the ball before the receiver made his cut. It is a ball control offense that uses the passing game to move down the field similar to the running games. However, receivers would frequently run "Go routes" (deep routes) to stretch the field. Even if they were not open, that would open holes for other receivers and or running backs. I believe the West Coast came from the Coryell scheme, but I am not sure.

Gibbs devised the 2 TE, 1 back offense in the 80's to deal with blocking Lawrence Taylor of the Giants. From this he ran the "Counter Trey" where the back would take one step in one direction to give the Guard and Tackle on that side time to pull the opposite way and they would run a sweep (RB takes one step left and then goes around right end following the LOT and LOG). This play run around the left end was the play that Riggins broke free against the Dolphins in the Superbowl that you see on highlight reels.

The "Counter Gap" did the same thing but it was run between the guard and tackle instead of outside the tackle. In the above situation, the LOT & LOG would pull and run between the ROG and ROT.

"50 Gut" would be run off of either side of the center, straight ahead.

Once the running game got going and the other team would put "8 men in the box" to stop the run, Gibbs would then throw deep. Either for a long gainer or to get the other team to stop crowding the line of scrimmage to provide room to run.

Maybe others can provide info on today's offense/defense schemes.

Hope this helps.

[NicholSkin]

You really will be able to find a lot of information if you use the search. Try putting in things like:

Coryell

West Coast

Philosophy

Schemes

Take the major words from your questions and put 'em in a search. You'll find a lot of info, including links.

[Hick81]

Easy, hass. Did it ever occur to you that he IS doing research by asking knowledgable people on this message board.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Hey VB Boy!, your' givin' me a bad name here...leave the kid alone.

Two answers...Gibbs loves stretch plays, power traps, screens, and 70 yard, 39 yard bombs to Moss . In other words, run first, and throw when the opportunities are there. Formations...well that isn't my area of expertise. But, I would say generally that Big formations are Gibbs' style w/ the occasional three wide FL, SE, Slot look to either confuse or spread the "D".

Second...Gregg Williams defense is a hybrid "D". Not 4-3, not 3-4, not 4-6, etc...it is technically a 4-3 defense with 4 Defensive Linemen and 3 linebackers. The key components of his Defense are schemes. These are meant to confuse the opposing QB or RB. Often times, prior to the ball being snapped, there appears to be openings in William's schemes, but they are disguised well and those openings close rapidly causing potential t.o.'s/deflections/batted balls/quick tackles/sacks/etc.... This isn't any different than say, Dick LeBeau (Steelers), only that the schemes are different. The element of disguise=Often times Williams will blitz multiple downs in a row one series and then use the same look later with, say a DB in the box (close to the line of scrimmage), and then not blitz that DB but drop him into coverage in the flat or the middle of the field. That's a basic example and it certainly gets more complicated than that, but you get the gist. He's risky, but a genius at getting players to understand his system. Gregg Williams always talks about technique, especially with his DB's, b/c they are the last line of defense with a high risk/high reward style like his.

Finally, Gibbs is rather conservative...well really conservative in his approach where Saunders is a little more risky or explosive (very innovative offensive mind) is a better term. Williams is equally as innovative on the other side of the ball and will likely be a HOF if he gets a ring or two. His style is unparalleled in the league. Gibbs...well he is already a HOF, so there ya go. Hope this helps, and if I'm wrong on anything fellow ES boys/gals, correct me.

HTTR!

[blitzpackage]

I'm new here but I'd like to get the conversation rolling with all I know-the basics.

Teams will always prep to get percentages and probabilities for what a team will do on a certain down. They observe hours of film to obtain a best guess for all types of situations. Let's just use a Redskins practice on one isolated play for starters.

3rd and 4 on their own 25:

Gibbs/Saunders bring in a Weak I/2wr, 1te, 1hb, 1fb. So moss/randel-el, fauria, portis, cooley

Gibbs is known to be more conservative while Saunders is known to get creative with his schemes. From here all kinds of things can happen. Motion, formation shift, anything to confuse coverages-especially in man to man. But Greg Williams doesn't want to give away that he is running man to man because someone like Brunell will find Cooley mismatched on Holdman during a pass play. Greg will probably be bringing a blitz on third down, according to his tendencies-but from where?

So GW might bring in an extra safety/cornerback for Holdman to cover Cooley while he uses a stunt on the defensive line(2 DT's switching gaps after the snap) to prevent the guards from getting out on a run to the linebackers. Linebackers don't want to get touched by lineman in most NFL schemes. DT's are used basically like offensive lineman in most instances to "block" the guards from getting out while also occupying their gaps.

GW's basically trying to cover both instances with certain personnel and technique. He would also probably be jamming the wr's to allow time for his blitz to get there. But if they miss the jam and it's a pass in man to man coverage-that's trouble unless the safeties are playing cover 2 to prevent getting beat deep or Marshall is occupying the deep middle like a Tampa 2 defense. The possibilities are endless.

From there though you could talk about option routes, combination blocks, gap assignment technique, a DE's 9eye technique vs. nose technique-and on and on. I'm curious about the technical (eye vs. nose techniques, etc..) anyone know the philosophy behind that?

[FunBunch7]

I have a question that is more about Redskins history than fact and figures.

We know that discipline under Norv Turner was non-existant. But what happened under Marty SpellingBlinder? Why didn't the team do well? How come he's working out so well at San Diego?

People tend to forget that after an 0-5 start, we won our next 5 games and went on to even our record at 8-8. IMO this is a tremendous job by Shottenheimer and Co. not to throw in the towel.

If Spurrier had not come avavilable, it is very possible we would have kept Marty and with the momentum we had, who knows.

But don't get me wrong...it was Spurrier jacking things up so much that I think brought Gibbs back.

As far as Marty doing good in San Diego...it makes thing alot easier when you have L.T. in your back field and a steal of a tight end in Antonio Gates. Drew Brees sort of came out of nowhere also.

[James Moss]

-What defensive/offensive schemes/formations/philosophies were used in the 'Skins "glory years" in the 80s and 90s? How did these schemes differ from other schemes in use at the time (i.e., how did/does the West Coast offense differ from Gibbs' offense?)

I'll take a stab at this part.

One of the biggest adjustments Joe Gibbs had to make came as a result of the shorter play clock. He was famous for confusing defenses by making frequent substitutions and by putting as many as five players in motion on a single play. You still see players in motion, just not as many—more in his first year back than last year. Can’t comment on how Saunders’ offense will look.

As far as defense, nothing has really changed. He leaves that part of the game entirely to Williams just as he did with Petitbon.

One thing that will never change is Coach Gibbs' ruthless competitive nature, meticulous organization and preparation. He is a winner and he hates losing. Someone once said that when you play a Joe Gibbs team you’re getting an opponent that's going to be prepared, smart and will give solid effort for sixty minutes.

edit-I think I grabbed the wrong part of your question.

[LD0506]

The NFL Network recently had a show with Walsh explaining the WCO with Montana demonstrating. They went step by step through the various plays, the drops, the looks, and the variations they offered. I found it pretty interesting and it explained a lot. With the demos followed by game film it made it pretty clear, and they rerun the hell out of everything so you could probably catch it sometime. I'd like to see the same thing with Joe Gibbs' O to compare and contrast. Walsh also gave a lot of credit to things he learned under Paul Brown, it made for a decent football show as opposed to another making the cheerleader squad T&A fluff piece.

[James Moss]

The NFL Network recently had a show with Walsh explaining the WCO with Montana demonstrating.

I saw that too. I thought that was excellent.

[s0crates]

I have a question that is more about Redskins history than fact and figures.

We know that discipline under Norv Turner was non-existant. But what happened under Marty SpellingBlinder? Why didn't the team do well? How come he's working out so well at San Diego?

I do not think Marty Schottenheimer is working out well in San Diego. They have one of the most talented squads in the league and couldn't even make the playoffs last year. The team he has now should have been a Super Bowl contender. Marty is doing the same thing in San Diego he has done his whole career, pretty good but not good enough.

Marty has an OK 60% career winning percentage. But that is not that impressive when you remember he has coached teams with great players like Bernie Kosar, Earnest Byner, Joe Montana, and Ladanian Tomlinson. Also, he chokes in the playoffs. His career post-season record is an abysmal 5-12.

He is the classic underacheiver. That is why he had to go. That, and the fact that he always calls draw plays on third and long. :doh:

[skinsman4u]

Finally, Gibbs is rather conservative...well really conservative in his approach where Saunders is a little more risky or explosive (very innovative offensive mind) is a better term. Williams is equally as innovative on the other side of the ball and will likely be a HOF if he gets a ring or two. His style is unparalleled in the league. Gibbs...well he is already a HOF, so there ya go. Hope this helps, and if I'm wrong on anything fellow ES boys/gals, correct me.

HTTR!

Riveting, stated well and layed out in detail. This is a great thread because it enquires about a lot of questions we may all have had but wouldn't ask and questions that no one had but are touched on anyway. Coach Gibbs conservative ah yeah, as shown in that San Diego game when we were in filed goal range but to be sure Coach Gibbs wanted to get closer and Casey Rabach was called for holding..controversal, but he was called nevertheless and OT was forced. Nothing wrong with conservative as Coach Gibbs has proved time-after-time. But yeah huge difference in what Saunders will be running. Again we were in range but not necessarily in position and I think Coach Gibbs was also looking at the fact that the ball was on a hash...I think it was the left.

[ouvan59]

I have a question that is more about Redskins history than fact and figures.

We know that discipline under Norv Turner was non-existant. But what happened under Marty SpellingBlinder? Why didn't the team do well? How come he's working out so well at San Diego?

Snyder gave total control to Marty and after making some moves that Snyder didn't like completely shut out Snyder. After the season Snyder wanted to bring in a GM and Marty wanted no part of it. The Snyder-Schottenheimer marriage was doomed from the beginning.

And I wouldn't exactly characterize Marty as doing well in SD. One playoff game in his 4 years there isn't exactly stellar. He hasn't won a playoff game since Richie Petitbon was our coach.

[chiramu]

What was the off-season atmosphere like the year Spurrier was hired? Was it similar to the excitement today with Al Saunders running the offense? I wasn't as connected to the Redskins then as am I today so am curious what that felt like for the skins to be bringing in a totally different offensive mind who was either going to change the NFL, or be a bust.

[BURGUNDYnGOLD123]

I have a question that is more about Redskins history than fact and figures.

We know that discipline under Norv Turner was non-existant. But what happened under Marty SpellingBlinder? Why didn't the team do well? How come he's working out so well at San Diego?

Hes not working out the well in San Diego. All he does is pile up regular season wins and the choke in the playoffs. Over rated coach.

[The Rook]

-What is the Don Coryell offensive philosophy? How was it innovative? Who are some others (besides Gibbs and Saunders) who still use his ideas in their offenses?

Don "Air" Coryell's offensive philosphy is sometimes thought to be a "pass to set up the run" style, but this is a simplification of his game plan. Coryell would stock his team with quality skill position players via trade, draft, whatever. (Just look at his RBs, WRs and TEs when he was at San Diego.) He game-planned to have 5-6 minimum deep threat opportunities during the game and usually struck on these plays.

His RB was always a threat to bust it all the way (anyone remember Chuck Muncie?) and this kept the FS close to the box. His WRs ran crossing routes (creating screening situations) and had to be able to block downfield.

The QBs and WRs had to pre-read the defense and would take what the D gave them. Many was the time his team would short pass, short pass to draw up the SS than he would flood the zone with one WR on a "go".

Now, who does this remind you of? Joe Gibbs has always gotten a quality RB and a good stable of WRs. The main difference I can point to is the QB position. If Joe had mad bombers like Jim Hart or Dan Fouts, we would have seen a different attack approach with the Skins.

By the way, this has not been mentioned before, but can anyone remember L. Coles making a great down-field block? Now watch Moss from last year, it is easy to see why Joe pulled the trigger on that deal.

This was a simplification of the Coryell approach, but I hope it helps with your quest for knowledge.

The Rook

[gutlead74]

The coryell ideas that were so revolutionary are

1) the option route. ie the route is dictated by what coverage is being played, versus the west coast highly structured run this route exactly like this pick the open guy

2) timing of it witch ever of the options are run the ball is released on time, this requires that both the qb and wr read the defence and know where to go with the ball, throwing to a spot (this is similar to what spurrior does however the reads are left to the QB, find the open guy. the option routes make it possiable to max protect that is leave people in protection vs releasing them, the idea being where ever the Defenders are they are in the wrong place, where the WC and spurrior rely on 5 recievers running complementary routes with the idea one of them will be mismatched and open..

3) the route tree, numbering the standard routes allow for any combanation of routes together for given play, ie 999 would mean from left to right the recievers are running streaks, the numbering system allows a mental picture in the qbs head of where everyone is suppose to be, the remaining 2 recievers will usually be left in for protection, or run control routes, just run into a space and sit (cooley did alot of these he would block until the defender got by him then settle in the flat. )

this is my basic understanding of coryellism, protection first option routes to exploit space left by blitzers.

[Bangee7]

I'm not sure this was a question, but has anyone noticed that today's defenses don't run as many "stunts" as they used to?

a stunt is where one D-lineman cuts across into another lineman's gap.

the 2nd DL loops around him and covers the other's original gap.

if the o-lineman guarding the 1st guy goes with him, there should be

a gaping hole that can't be closed before the "looper" is thru.

In the 70's,80's, and early 90's, the stunt was a big defensive tactic.

It seems to have been replaced by the delayed blitz now-a-days.

Also I've noticed with the increased athleticism of DL, more and more of them

drop off into coverage areas. Even NT's from time to time.

Those are two big differences with Defenses that I have noticed in the past 8-10 years.

[jtyler42]

-What defensive/offensive schemes/formations/philosophies were used in the 'Skins "glory years" in the 80s and 90s? How did these schemes differ from other schemes in use at the time (i.e., how did/does the West Coast offense differ from Gibbs' offense?)

Offensively during Gibbs first tenure, Gibbs made his mark b/c he was one of the first NFL coaches to use the 2TE set as his base formation...He did this b/c when he came from San Diego to the Redskins we did not have the personnel(no true FB on the roster) to run the traditional 2back, 1TE, 2WR offense that he was accustomed to and to also give his tackles extra help for the likes of LT...

Off of this Singleback set Gibbs then began to employ multiple TE formations(so the defense wouldnt be able to determine the strong side of the formation), and sets where the WR's were bunched together(to cause confusion in coverage b/c the WR's would cross, and pick/rub off each others coverage to get open)...

Another Gibbs staple were the multiple shifts and motions before the snap, he used this to confuse the coverages for the D or outflank them in the run game...

The last Gibbs staple was the "Power" running game...He pretty much set the standard for the huge offensive line...

As far as the difference between Gibbs offense and the Bill Walsh offense their isnt much other than the terminology, formations, and run/pass ratio...

In the passing game both offenses employed 3, 5, and 7 step drop passing attacks that required rthymn throws...The main difference is that Gibbs offense was more vertical and relied on play-action were the Walsh offense was more horizontal, meaning Gibbs attacked downfield more and used the run to set up the pass were Walsh threw more possesion routes to take place of running the ball...He would set up the run w/the pass...Also almost forgot Gibbs pretty much patented the "Max Protect" blocking scheme, were he would only send 2-3 receivers out on a route whereas Walsh would typically send out 4-5 on every play...

Hope this answered that question! I'll tackle another of your ?'s later...

[pjfootballer]

I have a question that is more about Redskins history than fact and figures.

We know that discipline under Norv Turner was non-existant. But what happened under Marty SpellingBlinder? Why didn't the team do well? How come he's working out so well at San Diego?

I can answer this. You ever see Marty Schottenheimer coach in the Super Bowl? Enough said. His teams are dull, boring and predictable. He won't change.