Worlds most corrupt countries

[Spaceman Spiff]

Interesting read.

http://www.forbes.com/2006/02/03/corrupt-nations-world-cx_daa_0206caphosp.html?partner=netscape

[Midnight Judges]

That was very interesting but nothing about the USA in there. I was curious to see how we would rank against the Europeans in terms of corruption. I guess they paint us all with he "not corrupt" brush despite all the bribery in congress, the gas price gouging, the fixed war intelligence, the VP's company that he still has interest in profiteering off war, the Dukester getting a boat, a mansion, and a golden toilet, the Abramoff scandal, illegal wiretaps, election fraud, and just plain lies.

[Redskins Diehard]

That was very interesting but nothing about the USA in there. I was curious to see how we would rank against the Europeans in terms of corruption. I guess they paint us all with he "not corrupt" brush despite all the bribery in congress, the gas price gouging, the fixed war intelligence, the VP's company that he still has interest in profiteering off war, the Dukester getting a boat, a mansion, and a golden toilet, the Abramoff scandal, illegal wiretaps, election fraud, and just plain lies.

And that doesn't even mention the President that lies under oath...oh wait, politicians have only become corrupt in the last 6 years, and are certainly ALL from one party.

[Midnight Judges]

And that doesn't even mention the President that lies under oath...oh wait, politicians have only become corrupt in the last 6 years, and are certainly ALL from one party.

When you are reduced to exaggerating your opponents' stance in a debate, that should tell you something about the strength of your argument.

I was not exclusively referring to Republicans in my initial post, William Jefferson was a corrupt Dem who took bribes. Funny how corruption talk put you on the defensive like that. Tom Delay would be proud.

Also funny that you put a President getting a bj and lying about his personal life in the same category as corruption that effects hundreds of millions of people. Priorities.

[Redskins Diehard]

When you are reduced to exaggerating your opponents' stance in a debate, that should tell you something about the strength of your argument.

I was not exclusively referring to Republicans in my initial post, William Jefferson was a corrupt Dem who took bribes. Funny how corruption talk put you on the defensive like that. Tom Delay would be proud.

Also funny that you put a President getting a bj and lying about his personal life in the same category as corruption that effects hundreds of millions of people. Priorities.

Never mentioned the BJ. Simplying swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...and then proceeding to do none of the above. Thats all.

And I really didn't argue any of the points you made, simply made a statement that it wasn't a)new or restricted to any one party.

[dreamingwolf]

First off the way they are measuring corruption is through how the IMF and Word Bank funds are used by the countries they are allocated to. Thats why you dont see any mention of the US or europe.

Second Why does every conversation have to corrode into political tag here? Regardless of the topic of the thread it always turns into political hair pulling. Neither party is substantially worse than the other, and neither party worships satan(although the dems do sacrifice babies for power:silly: I keed I keed).

I understand that political smears are going to happend, but can we keep them where they belong in political smear threads and not in every single thread.

[Chopper Dave]

Never mentioned the BJ. Simplying swearing to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...and then proceeding to do none of the above. Thats all.

And I really didn't argue any of the points you made, simply made a statement that it wasn't a)new or restricted to any one party.

Your argument only holds water when you think of things in absolutes, only in terms of black and white. By that logic, lying under oath about getting a BJ would be morally worse than lying to the country, Congress, and UN about reasons for going to war, and it'd also be worse than circumventing the justice system to wiretap innocent citizens without having to answer to anybody.

Although, I doubt you disagree with that assessment, regardless of how insanely twisted it is, considering it shines positive light on your side.

[Redskins Diehard]

Your argument only holds water when you think of things in absolutes, only in terms of black and white. By that logic, lying under oath about getting a BJ would be morally worse than lying to the country, Congress, and UN about reasons for going to war, and it'd also be worse than circumventing the justice system to wiretap innocent citizens without having to answer to anybody.

Although, I doubt you disagree with that assessment, regardless of how insanely twisted it is, considering it shines positive light on your side.

And by your logic, presenting a case based on intelligence that turned out to be wrong equates to lying. So throw Colin Powell, Tommy Franks, and Tony Blair into the pile of liars.

But you would never call Colin Powell a liar, because that would make you look bad. And you would never call Tommy Franks a liar because that would ruin the act that you support the troops but oppose the war.

Either way, are you claiming that we are one of the worlds most corrupt countries as your partner in crime did?

[Spaceman Spiff]

I actually just posted it to see how long it'd take someone to bring up this country and "this administration."

Carry on.

[Chopper Dave]

And by your logic, presenting a case based on intelligence that turned out to be wrong equates to lying. So throw Colin Powell, Tommy Franks, and Tony Blair into the pile of liars.

But you would never call Colin Powell a liar, because that would make you look bad. And you would never call Tommy Franks a liar because that would ruin the act that you support the troops but oppose the war.

Either way, are you claiming that we are one of the worlds most corrupt countries as your partner in crime did?

I in no way equated presenting a case based on wrong intelligence with lying. I don't think the administration had bad intelligence; I think they lied, or at least molded the evidence to fallaciously fit their needs, which is damn near close to lying. While I don't think Powell himself is a liar, I believe that he was forced or tricked by the real liars to tell a lie.

I could call Tommy Franks a liar if I wanted, and it would in no way "ruin the act" that I support the troops. Truth is, he's just one of the many who were duped by this administration.

Additionally, no, I'm not implying that our government is one of the most corrupt out there. Are we corrupt? Hell yes we are. Every government inherently is, though.

Then there's the whole issue of the tone of your post, which to be honest, is a sickening portrayal of typical right-wing acidic debate. You throw around implicative statements like "partner in crime," and "ruin the act that you support the troops," and it's disgusting, immature, and foolish. If the best you can do to prove your point is baselessly attack someone who opposes you with false and inappropriate pejorative buzzwords, then you have no place trying to prove your point, because obviously you don't have a valid one.

[Redskins Diehard]

I in no way equated presenting a case based on wrong intelligence with lying. I don't think the administration had bad intelligence; I think they lied, or at least molded the evidence to fallaciously fit their needs, which is damn near close to lying. While I don't think Powell himself is a liar, I believe that he was forced or tricked by the real liars to tell a lie.

I could call Tommy Franks a liar if I wanted, and it would in no way "ruin the act" that I support the troops. Truth is, he's just one of the many who were duped by this administration.

Additionally, no, I'm not implying that our government is one of the most corrupt out there. Are we corrupt? Hell yes we are. Every government inherently is, though.

Then there's the whole issue of the tone of your post, which to be honest, is a sickening portrayal of typical right-wing acidic debate. You throw around implicative statements like "partner in crime," and "ruin the act that you support the troops," and it's disgusting, immature, and foolish. If the best you can do to prove your point is baselessly attack someone who opposes you with false and inappropriate pejorative buzzwords, then you have no place trying to prove your point, because obviously you don't have a valid one.

And perfectly legitimate to claim someone is disgusting, immature, and foolish.

The fact that Powell and Franks believed in what they were doing, and believed what they were saying is what lends credibility to me. I don't think these guys are a) stupid enough to be duped or spineless enough to be muscled. Neither of them had any political aspirations and both knew first hand the absolute nastiness of combat. Powell was OPPOSED to Desert Storm for crying out loud.

The fact is that saying most of our government was wrong is not enough. We need to label one man a liar, despite the fact that many guys who are fairly universally looked upon as "good guys" shared the same beliefs.

This endeavor we call Operation Iraqi Freedom is not the creation of one man, it is the creation of an entire government.

[Chopper Dave]

And perfectly legitimate to claim someone is disgusting, immature, and foolish.

The fact that Powell and Franks believed in what they were doing, and believed what they were saying is what lends credibility to me. I don't think these guys are a) stupid enough to be duped or spineless enough to be muscled. Neither of them had any political aspirations and both knew first hand the absolute nastiness of combat. Powell was OPPOSED to Desert Storm for crying out loud.

The fact is that saying most of our government was wrong is not enough. We need to label one man a liar, despite the fact that many guys who are fairly universally looked upon as "good guys" shared the same beliefs.

This endeavor we call Operation Iraqi Freedom is not the creation of one man, it is the creation of an entire government.

It is legitimate to call them that when that's what they are acting like. You're attacking me, not my position.

If you remember correctly, Powell WAS against going to the UN, and was against going into Iraq. Then he had a little meeting with Bush and his people, and suddenly he changed his tune. He was either duped or strongarmed.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was the creation of the neocon juggernaut that has taken over the Republican party. That neocon juggernaut is in power now. They took intelligence that didn't really point to the conclusion of attacking Iraq, and twisted it to point that way. They were going to attack Iraq one way or another, 9/11 just made it even easier for them, and then they tricked the country into going along with it.

And getting back to the original point, that's a far worse crime than lying about getting a BJ.

[Redskins Diehard]

It is legitimate to call them that when that's what they are acting like. You're attacking me, not my position.

If you remember correctly, Powell WAS against going to the UN, and was against going into Iraq. Then he had a little meeting with Bush and his people, and suddenly he changed his tune. He was either duped or strongarmed.

Operation Iraqi Freedom was the creation of the neocon juggernaut that has taken over the Republican party. That neocon juggernaut is in power now. They took intelligence that didn't really point to the conclusion of attacking Iraq, and twisted it to point that way. They were going to attack Iraq one way or another, 9/11 just made it even easier for them, and then they tricked the country into going along with it.

And getting back to the original point, that's a far worse crime than lying about getting a BJ.

Your argument only holds water when you think of things in absolutes, only in terms of black and white. By that logic, lying under oath about getting a BJ would be morally worse than lying to the country, Congress, and UN about reasons for going to war, and it'd also be worse than circumventing the justice system to wiretap innocent citizens without having to answer to anybody.

Although, I doubt you disagree with that assessment, regardless of how insanely twisted it is, considering it shines positive light on your side.

Riiiiiight. And the post above is simply attacking a position.

[Chopper Dave]

Riiiiiight. And the post above is simply attacking a position.

It is. The position that lying about getting a BJ is worse than lying to your country in order to start a war.

[Redskins Diehard]

It is. The position that lying about getting a BJ is worse than lying to your country in order to start a war.

Please find somewhere where I made that argument or asserted that position. Please. Or just continue to jump from thread to thread attacking people that don't agree with you and then play victim when someone isn't nice to you.

A two way conversation is best handled in PM's...I apologize to everyone for letting this go for this long.

[stevenaa]

Come on guys. This topic has been beat to death and is not really pertinent to the thread.

[Chopper Dave]

Please find somewhere where I made that argument or asserted that position. Please. Or just continue to jump from thread to thread attacking people that don't agree with you and then play victim when someone isn't nice to you.

A two way conversation is best handled in PM's...I apologize to everyone for letting this go for this long.

I'm used to people like you not being nice to me on this. And since when is participated in multiple threads a bad thing?

As far as that assertion goes, your support of the war combined with your indictment of Clinton's perjury as "corruption" adequately shows where you stand.

You are right in your sentiment that this has gone on too long. Funny that the one tilting it towards getting out of hand is also the one now apologizing and trying to save face, though.

[FlyinO]

Forbes, a propaganda machine. To leave out the US is irresponsible journalism. And I know that the US didn't fit their criteria to make the list, but isn't that just convenient.

[dreamingwolf]

Forbes, a propaganda machine. To leave out the US is irresponsible journalism. And I know that the US didn't fit their criteria to make the list, but isn't that just convenient.

translation

I dont read anything, I just see the United States by what party is in the white house and attack if its Republican. Do us all a favor and actually read the article.

And if you really for a second believe the US is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and your not saying that just to be a partisian hack cause the Republicans are in power then you sir are mislead and ignorant. Im not saying my country is perfect(regardless of what party is in power), but it certainly would not even rank in the top 100 most corrupt nations(regardless of what party was in power).

[Baculus]

It's ironic that they are discussing corrupt nations, the World Bank, and the IMF, who are corrupt entities unto themselves, in the same breath. Half of the time the IMF / World bank are only interested in loaning money to contries who can't afford to pay back the loan, but are more than willing to let foreigners siphon off their nation's natural resources.

Economic hitmen...

[dreamingwolf]

finally someone who atleast read the article.

Its very difficult to defend the IMF and world bank, and Im not entirely sure that its even possible. Necessary evil :whoknows: ?

Perhaps if they can be cleaned up perhaps they can negitively effect some of these corrupt regimes. Im not sure that anyone cares though. People are happy to hear that food and money are given to people less fortunate and they leave it at that, and focus all their rage at their domestic opponents.

[Ancalagon the Black]

My first reaction to reading the article was "Thank God I live in a country where you don't have to bribe officials to get a telephone installed, pay off the cops not to arrest you on some trumped-up charge, or cater to the whims of a warlord in everyday life." I guess not everyone sees it that way, and some people will even disagree with some of the statements I made.

[FlyinO]

translation

I dont read anything, I just see the United States by what party is in the white house and attack if its Republican. Do us all a favor and actually read the article.

And if you really for a second believe the US is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and your not saying that just to be a partisian hack cause the Republicans are in power then you sir are mislead and ignorant. Im not saying my country is perfect(regardless of what party is in power), but it certainly would not even rank in the top 100 most corrupt nations(regardless of what party was in power).

translation: I'm a chest thumping American and a shill for our government. I don't understand numbers at all, because if I did, I would understand that the American government arguably has more waste due to corruption than any other government in the world. No American entity has ever had anything to do with corrupt third world leaders and their nations. Lobbyist have nothing at all to do with the enlightened decisions our leaders make. Doing whats right for the citizens of this nation is always priority number 1. The wealth or our nation and my personal well being has made me apathetic to the misdeeds of government. Ignorance is truly bliss.

[Midnight Judges]

I certainly am not ungrateful to live in the USA. We do have one of the best Governments in the world. However, I would not describe it as "not corrupt." Rumor has it that this Dukester and Tom Delay and William Jefferson business is only the tip of the iceberg.

I was curious to see how they would rank us against the Europeans. Would be ballsy for them to evaluate us like that, which is why they didn't do it.

[Zguy28]

I certainly am not ungrateful to live in the USA. We do have one of the best Governments in the world. However, I would not describe it as "not corrupt." Rumor has it that this Dukester and Tom Delay and William Jefferson business is only the tip of the iceberg.

I was curious to see how they would rank us against the Europeans. Would be ballsy for them to evaluate us like that, which is why they didn't do it.

I can tell you this, I have friends in a little country called Moldova and the officials there are as corrupt as can be. We have to pay off officials just so we can dig a well for people who's water looks like coca-cola.

PS. IMO a lie is a lie is a lie. It doesn't matter the size. Party afilliation has nothing to do with it either.