Difference Between Coryell Offense and Holmgren/Martz WCO?

[RiggoReincarnated]

Can anybody tell me the difference between the two schemes? From what I heard, Gibbs abandoned Coryell offense and went to more of a power running game in the 80s.

Both Coryell and WCO seem bent on passing to set up the run, with a QB that has a quick release. One thing I didn't like about Brunell is that he'd seemingly hang onto the ball for ages.

So I really don't understand why Musgrave would want to leave. I don't understand how he even can leave with everyone on staff suppossedly renewed for next year.

[TLusby]

So I really don't understand why Musgrave would want to leave. I don't understand how he even can leave with everyone on staff suppossedly renewed for next year.

Maybe he's being told nicely to look for another position.

[Erigion]

Two different WCO out there.

The one Gibbs/Saunders use: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/1999/10/28/inside_football/

Martz falls under the "real" WCO except he seems to have forgotten that running backs can run the ball as well.

The one Holmgren/Musgrave use: http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/sports2000/trends/135237.html

It's easy to see why Musgrave is looking for a new position, with Saunders his philosophy doesn't fit with any of the other coaches on the team. Frankly, I don't really think Saunders needs to incorperate much of what Musgrave believes in.

[RiggoReincarnated]

Two different WCO out there.

The one Gibbs/Saunders use: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/1999/10/28/inside_football/

Martz falls under the "real" WCO except he seems to have forgotten that running backs can run the ball as well.

The one Holmgren/Musgrave use: http://www.sportingnews.com/archives/sports2000/trends/135237.html

It's easy to see why Musgrave is looking for a new position, with Saunders his philosophy doesn't fit with any of the other coaches on the team. Frankly, I don't really think Saunders needs to incorperate much of what Musgrave believes in.

Thanks I appreciate the links.

[cphil006]

Gibbs branded his own "East Coast offense", which was a variation of Don Coryell, something he developed early in his 'skins days, when he had certain players. It isn;t necc. what plays are called, run or pass...like pass setting up the run, or run setting up the pass...

Gibbs uses a lot of shifts and motions, as does Saunders. Gibbs created the H-Back position, which Norv Turner used. Martz does his own things, but is a variation of Norv Turner, all can be traced back to Don Coryell, though. Bill Walsh had the West Coast offense...

[BlueTalon]

Whenever I think of Coryell, I think of the Chargers in the 80's. They had a good RB in Muncie, but the team was characterized by the air game, and the thing I remember about it is that they would score (or not) quickly, and then their defense would be on the field for a long time. Their D usually wasn't that good to begin with, and then they'd get tired, so it became a shootout, and the question would be whether the Chargers could score enough to keep up with the team that was cutting through their defense.

[bubba9497]

Martz falls under the "real" WCO except he seems to have forgotten that running backs can run the ball as well.

Martz doesn't run a WCO, his is also a version of Air Coryell, that emphasizes passing more, Saunders more balance, Gibbs more running.

WCO prefers the short, high percentage passing, to control the clock. usually has big WR, to get YAC, and the rb getting many passes thrown his way.

Martz, uses small quick receivers to go vertical, deep balls. Like Gibbs uses an h-back.

WCO doesn't do much shifting, a staple under Gibbs, Saunders, Martz

[Donita35]

Okay now I am confused, I seen to have a slight case of information over load. Help me out, Gibbs runs his modified version of the Coryell offense which includes heavy run to set up the pass and so does Saunders? But Saunders uses different schemes to get the RB more involved in the passing game. But Musgrave on the other hand runs a variation of the WCO which includes a lot of short high percentage passes that possibly sets up the run? So confused? Enlighten me!

[Ernie5]

This is something people have been struggling with. Wilbon, who isn't Mr. Football, said in a recent culumn that Saunders runs an entirely different offense from Gibbs, which, of course, is utterly untrue. The Coryell-Gibbs-Zampese-Turner-Martz-Saunders system (I guess throw in Dan Henning, too) is, in many ways, the direct opposite of the WCO as developed by Walsh and run by Holmgren, Reid et al. The WCO is often called the "dink and dunk" which simply means they use short passing plays (lots of crossing routes) as running plays, to gain 6-7 yards. The Coryell offense is nothing like that; it uses the run to set the pace and the long pass on play-action once the run has been established. Martz and Saunders did a variation of that -- throwing the ball when Gibbs or Coryell would likely have run, but not in the manner preached by Walsh. Martz and Saunders will often use the pass to open up the field and provide larger running lanes for Faulk, Holmes, Johnson, and now Portis.

[gortiz]

Martz is directly from the Coryell tree ... I think he incorporates more horizontal/crossing patterns though. He also does not run as much. He uses shotgun and he uses 4WR formations a lot more than Gibbs ever did, not sure about Saunders. Martz uses a lot of trick plays as well, direct snaps after the QB fakes a time out, and fake pump to the draw play.

I think the fullback is huge in the WCO, as well as the TE. In fact, a catching RB is key as well, look at Watters and Roger Craig. Splitback formations are used a lot as well in WCO.

[Spear]

Basically, the Coryell system is all about the naming conventions of the plays. It's short, concise, and descriptive, usually using one word and a series of numbers representing receiver routes. The Walsh offense uses mile-long names for its plays with words, numbers, letters, and Sanskrit.

Aside from that, there's not really any one thing you can attribute to either system that the other doesn't use. Pre-snap motion, vertical passing attack, and dinking and dunking are common to both.

[Erigion]

Martz doesn't run a WCO, his is also a version of Air Coryell, that emphasizes passing more, Saunders more balance, Gibbs more running.

WCO prefers the short, high percentage passing, to control the clock. usually has big WR, to get YAC, and the rb getting many passes thrown his way.

Martz, uses small quick receivers to go vertical, deep balls. Like Gibbs uses an h-back.

WCO doesn't do much shifting, a staple under Gibbs, Saunders, Martz

If you read those links I provided you'll see that what we consider the WCO now is misnamed, which Bill Walsh agrees with. That's the reason why I said that Martz falls under the real WCO tree like Gibbs and Saunders, not with Holmgren and Musgrave who come from the Walsh WCO coaching tree.

Course, it doesn't matter now. Since no one will ever refer to the Don Coryell system as the WCO.

[Khun Kao]

Martz doesn't run a WCO, his is also a version of Air Coryell, that emphasizes passing more, Saunders more balance, Gibbs more running.

WCO prefers the short, high percentage passing, to control the clock. usually has big WR, to get YAC, and the rb getting many passes thrown his way.

Martz, uses small quick receivers to go vertical, deep balls. Like Gibbs uses an h-back.

WCO doesn't do much shifting, a staple under Gibbs, Saunders, Martz

Bubba, did you read the first article? The West Coast Offense moniker was originally used to refer to the Coryell-type offense, but because of a sports writer misquoting the speaker, it ended up being attached to Walsh's offense. That is why it is actually correct to refer to the Coryell tree as the REAL West Coast Offense....

[Donita35]

So, do we or do we not have a west coast offense. I understand that we have variation of the Coryell system and thus is NOT a WCO. Right?

[TheSchwartz]

Bubba, did you read the first article? The West Coast Offense moniker was originally used to refer to the Coryell-type offense, but because of a sports writer misquoting the speaker, it ended up being attached to Walsh's offense. That is why it is actually correct to refer to the Coryell tree as the REAL West Coast Offense....

That's all well and good, but NO ONE refers to it that way anymore, correct or not...

So there is no need to try and educate a couple people on this forum who you are basically just confusing even more...

Just think of it this way...

Coryell-Gibbs-Saunders--Martz-Linehan:All similar in terms of vertical passing attack

Walsh-Holmgren-Reid-Mariucci-Musgrave:All similar in terms of short passes that set up yards after the catch...

But what you should consider is the fact that for the most part it seems the Coryell offense is more easily adapted to personnel on the team, while the Walsh system needs to bring in and develop the "right" players...

[bubba9497]

:laugh: Yeah Walsh and Coryell patiented the name West Coast Offense

the name was a creation of some reporter

it is generally understood today, as Bill Walsh- WCO, Don Coryell- AIR Coryell

[jschlesi]

Remember that the Coryell Offense was most effective when the Cards got Metcalf and Bolts got Muncie

[csgunderson]

This reminds me of the discussion I had with a college professor of mine who didn't know that, in the realm of politics, republicans used to be democrats and democrats used to be republicans.

Anyhow, forget about the terminology, the bottom line (addressing the question raised by the originator of this thread) is that Saunders runs an offense that is a "modernized" version of the offense already installed by Gibbs, so there really is no longer a need for Musgrave, who was at least partly brought in to help modernize Gibbs' passing game (hence the use of the shotgun this year).

[MrSilverMaC]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Coryell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walsh_%28football_coach%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Coast_offense

[Mania]

Can anybody tell me the difference between the two schemes? From what I heard, Gibbs abandoned Coryell offense and went to more of a power running game in the 80s.

Both Coryell and WCO seem bent on passing to set up the run, with a QB that has a quick release. One thing I didn't like about Brunell is that he'd seemingly hang onto the ball for ages.

So I really don't understand why Musgrave would want to leave. I don't understand how he even can leave with everyone on staff suppossedly renewed for next year.

Martz does not use a west coast offense. Norv Turner used a variation of the Gibbs/Coryell offense and Martz was Turners qb's coach. Therefore Martz does not use a WCO.

[Snagletooth]

I believe both use timing routes, coordinated with the drop of the QB. Its just that the Bill Walsh west coast lineage use a more horizontal passing attack. Much of the power running is replaced with short passes. The TE and Fullback do not stay in to block as often, so with fewer blockers, a quicker rhythm is required. It is a more finesse style.

[CrossWalker]

The best description that I've ever heard for the WCO states that the basic premise is to get the ball into the best playmakers hands as quickly as possible and with the greatest possibility to gain yards after the catch.

Using that description I thought that Coach Gibbs really incorporated some new wrinkles this year that followed along that line of thought.

The important thing to emphasize is that these offensive descriptions (WCO or whatever) really flow more along lines of tuteledge than anything else. A man like Coach Gibbs is going to be able to devote the time to film study and add wrinkles from any system that he thinks will move the ball. If that means tossing out a quick screen to Moss in order to take advantage of a defender laying off to compensate for speed than that is what the offense will do, West Coast monicker or not.

[MVPWilliams17]

You know, during the first Gibbs era, I don't believe that the wr screen was a staple to the offense. Certainly not to the effect that it has been used here in the last two years.

Funny thing is, Spurrier was the one that brought that play here. He used to try an run that alot with Coles. I believe Gibbs saw something in that and decided to co-opt it for his own. Using it first with Coles, who was relatively ineffective with it, and then later with Moss, who had a lot more success running it.

[Ernie5]

The WCO -- the Walsh version, sometimes called the Cincinnati offense because Walsh was OC w/the Bengals when he developed it -- is different in ways besides nomenclature. A lot of split back formations and generally much less movement. All offenses are about creating mismatches, but the Coryell version involves a good deal more pre-snap movement to both create mismatches & provide reads for the QB.

What has happened since Gibbs retired in '92 is that the offenses have cross-pollenated a little; Martz and Saunders added lots of crossing patterns to an offense that didn't use them that much. Mike Shanahan mixed in some of the power running of the Coryell/Gibbs model into his WCO offense at Denver. My favorite "innovation" of the Martz/Saunders version is the option pitch -- which is a beautiful misdirection play if you've got a RB capable to making a quick move (and we do).

[ibarramedia]

Gibbs branded his own "East Coast offense", which was a variation of Don Coryell, something he developed early in his 'skins days, when he had certain players. It isn;t necc. what plays are called, run or pass...like pass setting up the run, or run setting up the pass...

Gibbs uses a lot of shifts and motions, as does Saunders. Gibbs created the H-Back position, which Norv Turner used. Martz does his own things, but is a variation of Norv Turner, all can be traced back to Don Coryell, though. Bill

Walsh had the West Coast offense...

bump....