As if we needed more proof that Carter's an idiot...

[Jumbo]

And you my friend, a terrific homer. Try and get past the part where one is a Redskin and you'll soon be able to comprehend the fact that Gibbs is a pretty good coach...so is Gruden.

I'm not sure how 1987 is valid in a conversation about how 2 current NFL coaches are CURRENTLY coaching.

Physicality, are you fargin' serious. I'm not talking about skills diminishing, be they mental or physical. I'm looking at the past 2 seasons by 2 coaches. How is it that they are not comperable?

tard, that's cute. A 51 year old high schooler.

Guilty on the 'tard call. Won't be the last time either. You used the word "retarded" asking if someone would describe your position that way in your previous post and I played with it.

Tell ya what, though. I made a more thorough response, but thought it was too mean based on a breif review of your posting history, and I cut it. I'll just bid you adieu, instead.

[Brown_Hornet]

Guilty on the 'tard call. Won't be the last time either. You used the word "retarded" asking if someone would describe your position that way in your previous post and I played with it.

Tell ya what, though. I made a more thorough response, but thought it was too mean based on a breif review of your posting history, and I cut it. I'll just bid you adieu, instead.

The use of "retarded" was a quote from skinsFTW. Scroll to his post and you'll see that.

I'm having a hard time believeing that some of you cannot make this comparison.

Tell me, what has Gibbs done THIS SEASON that makes him a clear cut, hands down, you're an idiot for thinking otherwise, better football coach than Gruden?

I take nothing away from Gibbs distinction as one of the all-time greats. I'm making an argument that a comparison between the 2 coaches is a legit one. Their respective histories don't have anything to do with the argument about how they have done in 2005.

BTW, please do me a favor and don't do me any favors. Your position on this issue reeks of homerism as you are unable to make a simple comparison of how the 2 coaches have coached this year.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Carter doesn't make the distinction of the comparison being based on 2005. In fact he gives Brunell the edge because of playoff experience. Since Brunell's playoff experience was a few years ago but still gives him the edge, the same would apply to Gibbs' coaching. He's been there and done that before, in fact many times before, which naturally gives him the edge over lil Chucky. It's pretty simple.

[Jumbo]

The use of "retarded" was a quote from skinsFTW. Scroll to his post and you'll see that.

I'm having a hard time believeing that some of you cannot make this comparison.

Tell me, what has Gibbs done THIS SEASON that makes him a clear cut, hands down, you're an idiot for thinking otherwise, better football coach than Gruden?

I take nothing away from Gibbs distinction as one of the all-time greats. I'm making an argument that a comparison between the 2 coaches is a legit one. Their respective histories don't have anything to do with the argument about how they have done in 2005.

BTW, please do me a favor and don't do me any favors. Your position on this issue reeks of homerism as you are unable to make a simple comparison of how the 2 coaches have coached this year.

Ok. First let me digress a bit on homerism, which you throw around on here like other visitors do, as though you don't everengage in it regarding your team. In fact, if we took our conversation ANYWHERE else on another board YOU would be the one assumed to be a Bucs fan of intense homerism trying to argue Gruden = Gibbs. And though you try to use homerism as some sort of slam, to me it isn't. But most of the time I remain objective in football discussions, though I'm always a Redskin fan.

Objectivity is not hard for me, it's both my lifelong peronsal preference and one of the essentials in my profession. Homerism for me is more keeping the faith and looking to find things to believe in even when its grim, and when addressing negatives always remembering to note what positives exist. And never trashing my players other than quick impulsive vents It can also mean fighting with anyone trashing the team. Depending on how they conduct themselves may, or may not, have great affect on how I respond in any interaction.

Now, Gruden & Gibbs. You seem to keep narrowing the time you allow for the comparison to fit your agenda. First it seemed like you wanted to compare the coach's quality in general, but you don't want to allow Gibbs' previous history as being pertinent. On that matter, I said I found it ridiculous to the point of incredulity. You ignore what's been said before on this subject: i.e. NFL coaches themselves, as will most reasonable folks, look at a coach's ability in context of his coaching career, in comparing them to others or just in overall individual evaluation. That obviously makes sense, as it would in any other filed of endeavor. And of course, while I have repeatedly expressed my liking of Gruden, Gibbs has a much more impressive body of work.

Now it seems you wish to just go for a one-year comparison. Now as for what Gibbs has done this season, I will go ahead and do this on your terms, which I have little respect for in terms of making a quality argument about coaching ability. Here's why I would say Gibbs is better than Gruden even just this year: Gibbs is in his second year of walking into a very turbulent, unstable franchise. Gruden is in his third year of walking into a franchise with a very stable organization comparatively, though both needed new HC's at the time. Gibbs is in the second year of implementing an entirely new system on both sides of the ball with the vast majority of key players having the same time or less in the system. Gruden inherits a nine-ten?-year long defensive scheme with a large number of players having a number of years on the team. And Gruden has had his system in place longer on offense, too.

The NFL stats and virtually every writer/analyst in the country has called the NFCE the toughest NFC division, and one of the toughest period. It is tougher than the NFC South, in every relevant statistical way and in the views of almost all analysts. We also have played a factually tougher road schedule than the Bucs. We have beat more winning teams, and more current divisional champs than the Bucs. We have a better inter-conference record. We have a better winning point ratio against higher-rated defenses than the Bucs. With one exception, our losses are by a closer margin. And there's more, but that's enough.

These are Gibbs results this year. Bottom line: He's faced a notably bigger challenge than Gruden and yet led his team to the same slot. Gruden has also done well. And I think Lovie Smith did the best job this year. So even on your "lets just isolate this year" which I think is a very lame premise, you still lose.

As for not doing you any favors, I'll decide that, not you. As you have said, nice high-school level response though

[Brown_Hornet]

Well, you've missed a few points. namely the fact that I was merely supporting Cris Carter's "ability" to compare the 2 coaches. This in itself is the reason for the "this season" remarks. Yes, I initially said 2 seasons but only because neither coach approached HOF status for 2004.

Also, I used "homer" because I specifically stated, the first time, that I was not looking for some sort of lifetime achievement award, but simple justification for Carter's decision the the 2 coaches are "even" going into this weeks game. I tend to agree.

Tampa has a better defense as a whole but is at an overall disadvantage talent-wise as an entire team(my estimation, not Carter's). Based on that I would suggest that Gruden has done as good a job as Gibbs. Of course this is simplistic and completely unscientific, but hey, that's how I roll(grin). I do not think that Gibbs faced a tougher task this season so I suppose that we'll just disagree here.

In closing, I'm NOT a Buc's fan and don't particularily care for the guy, conversely, I have always liked Gibbs. Hell, I'm a Giants fan and sans the thanks for Parcells bringing me 2 championships, I like Gibbs more than Fatty Tuna.

BTW, I appreciate the fact that this discussion never completely deteriorated and we got our points across with as little emotion as possible.

Ya fargin' tard.(grin again)

CYA Jumbo...good luck tomorrow.

[SkinFan63]

Naw....we didn't need any more proof.

We already know he's an ******* with an empty head.

But I love those toothless morons picking against us.

Hail!:point2sky

[75004]

Carter played for the Vikings right. We must have kick his butt big time in order to have a grudge againts us. It's all good, he keeps trying to be a sports commentator but really sucks at it. I remember when he said that the Redskins would not make the playoffs.

Well Guess what Carter.

[Jumbo]

Well, you've missed a few points. namely the fact that I was merely supporting Cris Carter's "ability" to compare the 2 coaches. This in itself is the reason for the "this season" remarks. Yes, I initially said 2 seasons but only because neither coach approached HOF status for 2004.

Also, I used "homer" because I specifically stated, the first time, that I was not looking for some sort of lifetime achievement award, but simple justification for Carter's decision the the 2 coaches are "even" going into this weeks game. I tend to agree.

Tampa has a better defense as a whole but is at an overall disadvantage talent-wise as an entire team(my estimation, not Carter's). Based on that I would suggest that Gruden has done as good a job as Gibbs. Of course this is simplistic and completely unscientific, but hey, that's how I roll(grin). I do not think that Gibbs faced a tougher task this season so I suppose that we'll just disagree here.

In closing, I'm NOT a Buc's fan and don't particularily care for the guy, conversely, I have always liked Gibbs. Hell, I'm a Giants fan and sans the thanks for Parcells bringing me 2 championships, I like Gibbs more than Fatty Tuna.

BTW, I appreciate the fact that this discussion never completely deteriorated and we got our points across with as little emotion as possible.

Ya fargin' tard.(grin again)

CYA Jumbo...good luck tomorrow.

Thanks Hornet. At first I thought you were a Bucs troll and that was my error. That skewed the tone of my initial responses. I realized after reading more of your posts that you were a Giants fan.I'm generally pretty good natured, which is my preference. And I always appreciate a chance to have what could have been adversial or worse, become neutral or better. In this case, I am glad for the stand-down :laugh: Good luck until we face each other again

[SkinsFTW]

Tampa has a better defense as a whole but is at an overall disadvantage talent-wise as an entire team(my estimation, not Carter's). Based on that I would suggest that Gruden has done as good a job as Gibbs. Of course this is simplistic and completely unscientific, but hey, that's how I roll(grin). I do not think that Gibbs faced a tougher task this season so I suppose that we'll just disagree here.

Gruden has been coaching the Bucs for several seasons now (2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005). They have been losing the past couple seasons because of his coaching, even though they have had the same defensive scheme there and the same players on that defense doing extremely well for most of a decade now. They were a playoff team 3 consecutive years before he took over.

Gibbs brought a team that has sucked for years now and in his second season has them playing the best ball in the league even though they all said we would be 4-12 or 5-11. When Gibbs took this team 2 years ago they had just finished off a season by losing 6 of 7 and 8 of 10 games. They lost at home to Dallas 27-0 and Philadelphia 31-7.

The Bucs had one of the easiest schedules in the league this season as well and have underachieved the past 2 seasons until this season began with no real expectations for them. That is a direct reflection on what Gruden has done there.

I don't see how anyone can even say its close who has done the better job.

If you want to blindly look at the seasonal records and throw out an input then obviously you are on the same level of analysis as Mr. Carter.

[BeatONaCowboy]

The only Carter I like is what my boy Lil Weezy has produced.

[Brown_Hornet]

Gruden has been coaching the Bucs for several seasons now (2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005). They have been losing the past couple seasons because of his coaching, even though they have had the same defensive scheme there and the same players on that defense doing extremely well for most of a decade now. They were a playoff team 3 consecutive years before he took over.

Gibbs brought a team that has sucked for years now and in his second season has them playing the best ball in the league even though they all said we would be 4-12 or 5-11. When Gibbs took this team 2 years ago they had just finished off a season by losing 6 of 7 and 8 of 10 games. They lost at home to Dallas 27-0 and Philadelphia 31-7.

The Bucs had one of the easiest schedules in the league this season as well and have underachieved the past 2 seasons until this season began with no real expectations for them. That is a direct reflection on what Gruden has done there.

I don't see how anyone can even say its close who has done the better job.

If you want to blindly look at the seasonal records and throw out an input then obviously you are on the same level of analysis as Mr. Carter.

Thank you.