jrockster21 Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 We live in a secular society. Sorry if you don't like that and would rather live in a theocracy. Minorities are protected by law, and even if 85% of our citizens are christians, that doesn't make it ok to espouse christianity on public property. If you don't like that, too bad. THAT's what I was trying to say last night...:applause: :applause: :applause: If calling a tree a holiday tree is so offensive, maybe we should stop putting trees up on public property altogether. Remove Christmas as the national holiday. Then we could avoid these debates.What, you would dislike that even more?? Well then deal with the fact that not everyone is Christian, and not everyone likes to see Christian symbols on public property. Exactly...why is this so hard? I think it has its roots in American Imperialism, and American egotism. Sometimes you gotta suck it up and be PC. All that other PC crap about calling short people "vertically challenged" or any of those (can't think of any more right now) that have to do with people's feelings, those are stupid, and people should get thicker skin. But when it comes to religion, well, that's an entirely new ball-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Wow this thread has gotten out there! Ok, because I am really curious about this I am going to pose a few questions that Destino, Sarge, or whoever really cares about this issue should please answer me specifically. How does changing the name from Christmas tree to Holiday tree infringe on your worship? How does changing the name from Christmas tree to Holiday tree denigrate your faith, or destroy Christmas? If Christmas is a private religious holiday that just happens to be celebrated by the majority of the population, why force it onto the public sphere? Also, what does a majority opinion have to do with anything, considering that (and I hate to use these examples but they apply pretty well) the majority of Americans prior to 1865 were pro-slavery, or the majority of Americans prior to 1941 were against entering World War II. In other words, the majority is not always right, and there are many safegaurds in our government from blind majority rule, such as the Bill of Rights, two chambers of elected legislators, or presidential veto. I want you to keep in mind that I am an admitted athiest and a leftist, but I LOVE Christmas. It is my favorite time of year, I love presents, the time off from school, and the increased camradarie. I have never told anyone that "their religion is wrong" nor forced my beliefs onto theirs during this time of year. But I do see a gigantic Christmas tree as the equivalent of me attaching a sign infront of a government building that says "this is my belief, it is right because a lot of people agree with me, and I am implying that you are wrong." No one could justify that, least of all me. And please do not resort to name calling.PS Destino the dictionary.com definition of a bigot is "One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ." You implied quite strongly that a Holiday tree was bigotry, but I admit you did not flat out say it. I've already asked all of those questions, and they will not answer them because the answer is obviously that it won't infringe on their worship. But you won't hear that from them, as typical right-wingers (except Destino, apparently) they will refuse to answer the questions that expose their arguments for what they are; nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Showstopper Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 them jerks can calll it whatever they want, ill still call it a christmas tree, and will always call it a christmas tree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 We live in a secular society. Sorry if you don't like that and would rather live in a theocracy. Minorities are protected by law, and even if 85% of our citizens are christians, that doesn't make it ok to espouse christianity on public property. If you don't like that, too bad.If calling a tree a holiday tree is so offensive, maybe we should stop putting trees up on public property altogether. Remove Christmas as the national holiday. Then we could avoid these debates. What, you would dislike that even more?? Well then deal with the fact that not everyone is Christian, and not everyone likes to see Christian symbols on public property. I'm sorry but we do not live in a secular society. China is a secular society, so is North Korea. We live in a soceity of religious freedom. There is a rather large difference. No one at all is advocating that anything be done to a minority and of course it is ok to espouse religious belief on public property. There is no law at all barring the free practice of religion in this country. I can walk into court with my own bible if I want to. I can wear a cross to school, even public school. Everyone is allowed to freely display and practice their faith, even if it is on public property. So to quote you "If you don't like that, too bad." You confuse the free practice of religion with the wall of seperation. Seperation of church and state is intended to keep the government from promoting a particular brand of religion. There is a huge difference between free expression and promotion that folks like yourself refuse to acknowledge because you have an agenda. You want a secular society even if you have to force it. People that think that because they don't like something you have a right to demand it be taken down are the only ones pushing things on others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Sorry about that...it was late (2:22AM in HI) and I was a little drunk and that came out wrong. What I meant (I think) was more along the lines of separation of Church and State -- that religious symbols should not be forced on people who don't want to see them. That's all...I'm hungover this morning, so I don't know how argumentative I can be at the moment...:doh: :puke: Seeing something is not having it forced on you. Sorry but that's complete nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 No, it doesn't. As I said, I don't care what it is called. But this tree is called a Holiday tree. I don't see why you are so angry about it. It's called a Christmas tree. They changed the name back when they finally came to their senses. Get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 I'm sorry but we do not live in a secular society. China is a secular society, so is North Korea. We live in a soceity of religious freedom. There is a rather large difference. No one at all is advocating that anything be done to a minority and of course it is ok to espouse religious belief on public property. There is no law at all barring the free practice of religion in this country. I can walk into court with my own bible if I want to. I can wear a cross to school, even public school. Everyone is allowed to freely display and practice their faith, even if it is on public property. So to quote you "If you don't like that, too bad." You confuse the free practice of religion with the wall of seperation. Seperation of church and state is intended to keep the government from promoting a particular brand of religion. There is a huge difference between free expression and promotion that folks like yourself refuse to acknowledge because you have an agenda. You want a secular society even if you have to force it. People that think that because they don't like something you have a right to demand it be taken down are the only ones pushing things on others. Of course, people can profess their religious beliefs wherever and whenever they want. But the state can't, and it can be argued that by putting up a Christmas tree on public property, they are. You are lucky a tree is there at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 It's called a Christmas tree. They changed the name back when they finally came to their senses. Get over it. I'm not the one who brought this debate up. China did that. So tell him to get over it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 24, 2005 Share Posted November 24, 2005 Seeing something is not having it forced on you. Sorry but that's complete nonsense. It's the state espousing a particular religious belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 The fall of the American Empire. The fall of the American Empire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 The fall of the American Empire. The fall of the American Empire. When you come back, please do so because you want an honest debate. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 When you come back, please do so because you want an honest debate. Thanks. Lighten up, Wally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Lighten up, Wally. You aren't funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 You aren't funny. Who said I was trying to be? Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, and Happy Festivus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Who said I was trying to be? Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanza, and Happy Festivus. Humor lightens things up. You aren't funny, so I have no reason to be light. Being a Seinfeld fan ratchets you up a few notches in my book. You have gone from slimeball to weasel. Congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Humor lightens things up. You aren't funny, so I have no reason to be light.Being a Seinfeld fan ratchets you up a few notches in my book. You have gone from slimeball to weasel. Congratulations. No, liberals are weasels, as well as cowards. I'm sure you cower at things that I laugh at. You are a prime example of the pussification of America. Congratulations, kiddo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 No, liberals are weasels, as well as cowards. I'm sure you cower at things that I laugh at. You are a prime example of the pussification of America. Congratulations, kiddo. :laugh: Did I anger the old man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Of course, people can profess their religious beliefs wherever and whenever they want. But the state can't, and it can be argued that by putting up a Christmas tree on public property, they are.You are lucky a tree is there at all. But the state can't put up a Christmas tree? Since when? Seems to me like they do it all over the country, and the tree in this is once again a christmas tree. Reality disagrees with you.Looks like you are getting ahead of the game a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 But the state can't put up a Christmas tree? Since when? Seems to me like they do it all over the country, and the tree in this is once again a christmas tree. Reality disagrees with you.Looks like you are getting ahead of the game a bit. As I said before, I don't care. The Christmas tree is a secular symbol of a holiday that, while based in religion, is now nationally recognized. I really don't care. But I don't care if it is a holiday tree either. You guys are the ones who care. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 :laugh: Did I anger the old man? No, I don't get angry at anonymous people on internet message boards. Do I pity you? Yes. I think someone at your age with your views is sad. I don't know if it's your parent's fault or just the state of the educational system in this country. People with your views never amount to anything in life. They wander around thinking they are better than others, but they never really accomplish anything in life. To me, that is just a waste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 It's the state espousing a particular religious belief.Which religion would that be? I find it funny that people respond "Christian" when that isn't a particular faith. After all the wall of seperation was put in place to stop one type of Christian faith from wiping out the others. But I understand, seeing things in such a historically accurate manner would make it harder to try to impose secularism on everyone. So we may as well pretend the wall of seperation is something it isn't and argue this country was intended to be secular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Which religion would that be? I find it funny that people respond "Christian" when that isn't a particular faith. After all the wall of seperation was put in place to stop one type of Christian faith from wiping out the others. But I understand, seeing things in such a historically accurate manner would make it harder to try to impose secularism on everyone. So we may as well pretend the wall of seperation is something it isn't and argue this country was intended to be secular. Espousing christianity as a whole is still espousing a particular belief system, whether you say so or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Do I pity you? Yes. I think someone at your age with your views is sad. I don't know if it's your parent's fault or just the state of the educational system in this country. People with your views never amount to anything in life. They wander around thinking they are better than others, but they never really accomplish anything in life. To me, that is just a waste. Hey, you are the one who called close personal acquaintances hypocrites, and then went on to call every liberal (in essence, half the country), weasels and cowards. Qualify it any way you want, but I'm not the one here flinging around mass judgements. That would be you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nelms Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 Hey, you are the one who called close personal acquaintances hypocrites, and then went on to call every liberal (in essence, half the country), weasels and cowards.Qualify it any way you want, but I'm not the one here flinging around mass judgements. That would be you. "Close personal" acquaintances? Isn't that an oxymoron? Or maybe it's just a phrase from a MORON. Anyhoo, I wouldn't say EVERY liberal is a hypocrite or a weasel/coward. That would be unfair. My personal experiences and assessments of those I've read about and seen and heard in the media tell me that the majority of liberals are hypocrites and anti-America. And yes, some are even cowards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 25, 2005 Share Posted November 25, 2005 "Close personal" acquaintances? Isn't that an oxymoron? Or maybe it's just a phrase from a MORON.Anyhoo, I wouldn't say EVERY liberal is a hypocrite or a weasel/coward. That would be unfair. My personal experiences and assessments of those I've read about and seen and heard in the media tell me that the majority of liberals are hypocrites and anti-America. And yes, some are even cowards. Backing off your previous, all-encompassing accusations, I see. I knew you would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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