'Holiday' Tree?

[WeaponXDawkins]

"keep the dead faiths alive" hmmm, a bit of an oxymoron there, how 'bout we just admit they're alive? I still don't understand the hostility toward others unlike yourself - so far it's jews, pagans, druids and aztecs and a canadian dude with a tree in canada. Anyone else?

That my dear, is bigotry.

I fear that this thread may need to be closed, I really don't see the point in arguing religion on a Redskins website. I think we should all agree to disagree. And Merry Christmas to all.

[Destino]

I avoid the political threads...you sure sound like a right-winger.

Sarge was right, we are in....The Twilight Zone :laugh:

You're not serious, are you? They aren't getting rid of Christmas. That will never happen. They are calling one tree a holiday tree instead of a Christmas tree. Even if they changed the name everywhere, there would still be Santa Clauses everywhere and "holiday trees" on every corner and in every mall. There would be "holiday lights" strung up on every light pole in every town in america.

Question: does it offend you to see signs that say "Happy Holidays" when they used to say "Merry Christmas?" I know this is not the same thing, but I'm just curious. Also, if they said either call it a holiday tree or we're going to scrap it...what would you say then?

Again I never claimed anyone was getting rid of Christmas. But the idea that a Christmas tree needs to be renamed and all other holiday symbols from other faiths do not is insulting because it specifically target one group.

That is not a Star of David in public, it's a Holiday star.

That is not a Dreidel in public, it's a Holiday top.

Not a nativity scene in public...it's a holiday family.

That is not Santa in public, that's a holiday prowler that will attempt to break into your home and force his beliefs on your children.

[MontanaRed]

Tomato, tomahto, you righties are hilarious. QUOTE]

:laugh: Hold your hands out in front of you with your thumbs making an "L". Now repeat, righty tighty, lefty loosy :laugh: :laugh:

[jrockster21]

Have I? You are now going to tell me I can't have an intelligent conversation based on my religious beliefs? You are a bigot and the reason why this country is going in the toilet.

No, actually, one of my best friends is Catholic. We have debates all the time, but he is intelligent enough to understand that the views of Catholicism are HIS views, and not everybody shares them.

Only an ignorant person enters the religion debate with "if you don't practice Christianity you're going to burn in hell." You're debating religion, dummy, you can't debate religion with the principles of that religion. That's like defining a word using the word.

Definition of circle: Duh...you know, its that circular shape. Duh. :dunce:

[WeaponXDawkins]

Okay, tell me how calling a public tree in a public place a "holiday" tree instead of a "Christmas" tree prohibits you from practicing Christianity. Go ahead, take your time. You're going to need it, because the answer is IT DOESN'T.

Oh, and am I the only one who finds it ironic that you are excercising your freedom of speech to ***** about your freedom of speech? :doh:

That last sentence made absolutely no sense. What are you trying to say with that?

And I'm saying if I want to call it a Christmas tree I will. That's my right and I wont change it because Chopper Dave is tired of hearing it.

[WeaponXDawkins]

No, actually, one of my best friends is Catholic. We have debates all the time, but he is intelligent enough to understand that the views of Catholicism are HIS views, and not everybody shares them.

Only an ignorant person enters the religion debate with "if you don't practice Christianity you're going to burn in hell." You're debating religion, dummy, you can't debate religion with the principles of that religion. That's like defining a word using the word.

Definition of circle: Duh...you know, its that circular shape. Duh. :dunce:

I'm not debating religion. I'm saying that according to my faith, if you do not accept Jesus as your savior you are indeed going to hell.

[jrockster21]

Again I never claimed anyone was getting rid of Christmas. But the idea that a Christmas tree needs to be renamed and all other holiday symbols from other faiths do not is insulting because it specifically target one group.

Okay...the day that they start putting gi-normous, 50-foot tall, brightly lit Stars of David in public places and they don't change the name to "holiday star," that day I will agree with you. Until then, I stand firm.

[WeaponXDawkins]

Sarge was right, we are in....The Twilight Zone :laugh:

Again I never claimed anyone was getting rid of Christmas. But the idea that a Christmas tree needs to be renamed and all other holiday symbols from other faiths do not is insulting because it specifically target one group.

That is not a Star of David in public, it's a Holiday star.

That is not a Dreidel in public, it's a Holiday top.

Not a nativity scene in public...it's a holiday family.

That is not Santa in public, that's a holiday prowler that will attempt to break into your home and force his beliefs on your children.

Absolutely on target.

[WeaponXDawkins]

Okay...the day that they start putting gi-normous, 50-foot tall, brightly lit Stars of David in public places and they don't change the name to "holiday star," that day I will agree with you. Until then, I stand firm.

You see that's the thing I could care less what they call them. It won't offend me in the least. I'm very secure in my faith.

[Destino]

"keep the dead faiths alive" hmmm, a bit of an oxymoron there, how 'bout we just admit they're alive? I still don't understand the hostility toward others unlike yourself - so far it's jews, pagans, druids and aztecs and a canadian dude with a tree in canada. Anyone else?

That my dear, is bigotry.

Now it's hostility? Only one of us supports the idea of the other having to change it's celebrations. Personally I wouldn't mind at all if pagans, druids, and aztecs marched down my street and handed out fliers. I wouldn't care if my boss came into my office and announced we were off of work to celebrate pagan day. I like meeting people from unfamiliar cultures and beliefs.

I don't like them telling me that my celebrations are now being officially made generic so as not to offend.....but every other religious celebration is fine and needs no changes. That specifically targets one group and I don't believe the motives are as positive as the sales people claim them to be.

[MontanaRed]

I'm not debating religion. I'm saying that according to my faith, if you do not accept Jesus as your savior you are indeed going to hell.

Umm, I think that was his point. A debate is just a back and forth discussion of beliefs, or points of view. You can't define the word by using the word. I love that, btw. So YOU can accept Jesus and not go to hell, but to be honest, your beliefs have nothing to do with me (or what will "happen" to me). And that's my belief. Get how it works now?

[dreamingwolf]

I wonder how many of the people on the war path know what neo-humanist movement is?

http://www.humanistmovement.org/

They sound great dont they, help them.

[jrockster21]

I'm not debating religion. I'm saying that according to my faith, if you do not accept Jesus as your savior you are indeed going to hell.

Yeah, right, that's what you said. :doh:

Christianity is the only valid choice if you don't want to spend your afterlife in eternal hellfire.

That last sentence made absolutely no sense. What are you trying to say with that?

Okay, stay with me. I'll try and type in the smallest words I can so that you will be able to understand. You said:

I'd say this is America and your not taking away my freedom of speech or freedom of religion you liberal *******.

But you said that in a online, in a public forum. What do you suppose gives you the right to do that? Hmmmmm? I'll give you a hint: its in the first amendment to the Constitution. You say they are taking away your freedom of speech by renaming a friggin' tree...and then you insult them, which is only possible because you posess freedom of speech. :doh:

But go ahead, weapon x, keep avoiding the real question:

Okay, tell me how calling a public tree in a public place a "holiday" tree instead of a "Christmas" tree prohibits you from practicing Christianity.

[Sarge]

It all started with nativity scenes.

Can't have that, might offend someone.

Then both stores and schools changing from "Merry Christmas" and "Christmas" plays to "happy holidays" and "Holiday programs"

Now they're going after Chritmas trees.

ANd the downward slope continues

You can have ramadan celebrations in the White House, but you can't have a Christmas tree in public

[Destino]

Okay...the day that they start putting gi-normous, 50-foot tall, brightly lit Stars of David in public places and they don't change the name to "holiday star," that day I will agree with you. Until then, I stand firm.

So now it's the size? What the heck is this religious zoning laws?

:doh:

[MontanaRed]

Now it's hostility? Only one of us supports the idea of the other having to change it's celebrations. Personally I wouldn't mind at all if pagans, druids, and aztecs marched down my street and handed out fliers. I wouldn't care if my boss came into my office and announced we were off of work to celebrate pagan day. I like meeting people from unfamiliar cultures and beliefs.

I don't like them telling me that my celebrations are now being officially made generic so as not to offend.....but every other religious celebration is fine and needs no changes. That specifically targets one group and I don't believe the motives are as positive as the sales people claim them to be.

That's the point! The 35 foot Christmas tree is being specifically targeted because it IS the one group. There are not ginormous stars of david or pentagrams being displayed.

But I like the fact that you are open minded to meeting people with other beliefs. Thing is, you won't find them marching down the street with tracts - prozletizing seems to be a distictly Christian phenomenon.

[WeaponXDawkins]

Yeah, right, that's what you said. :doh:

Okay, stay with me. I'll try and type in the smallest words I can so that you will be able to understand. You said:

But you said that in a online, in a public forum. What do you suppose gives you the right to do that? Hmmmmm? I'll give you a hint: its in the first amendment to the Constitution. You say they are taking away your freedom of speech by renaming a friggin' tree...and then you insult them, which is only possible because you posess freedom of speech. :doh:

But go ahead, weapon x, keep avoiding the real question:

The more they generalize christianity to make it P.C. the more they infringe on my right to practice my religion in a public place or enjoy the holiday that I love so very much. Pretty soon we'll be calling it Hristmas Cay and celebrating in the basements of our homes so as to not offend people who are apparently very insecure in their own beliefs.

[Sarge]

That's the point! The 35 foot Christmas tree is being specifically targeted because it IS the one group. There are not ginormous stars of david or pentagrams being displayed.

But I like the fact that you are open minded to meeting people with other beliefs. Thing is, you won't find them marching down the street with tracts - prozletizing seems to be a distictly Christian phenomenon.

Again, that's because it represents the beliefs of one group which happens to be a MAJORITY of the people.

[Destino]

That's the point! The 35 foot Christmas tree is being specifically targeted because it IS the one group. There are not ginormous stars of david or pentagrams being displayed.

But I like the fact that you are open minded to meeting people with other beliefs. Thing is, you won't find them marching down the street with tracts - prozletizing seems to be a distictly Christian phenomenon.

Why do you think that in the United States of America you are more likely to see large Christmas decorations then other faiths?

Also the "distinctly Christian" thing is nonsense. I have met a lot of people from different belief system that try to convince me they have it all figured out. The most energetic tend to be atheists and jehovah's witness.

[MontanaRed]

It all started with nativity scenes.

Can't have that, might offend someone.

Then both stores and schools changing from "Merry Christmas" and "Christmas" plays to "happy holidays" and "Holiday programs"

Here's the scary thing - all day shopping and doing errands today, I heard "Happy Holidays!"

I made a conscience effort to reply "Happy Thanksgiving!"

It might be next!

[WeaponXDawkins]

Here's the scary thing - all day shopping and doing errands today, I heard "Happy Holidays!"

I made a conscience effort to reply "Happy Thanksgiving!"

It might be next!

If the liberals have their way then it will be next.

[Sarge]

It appears the gutless libs caved. All those scary Christians

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=113565&format=text

Falwell’s faithful put Hub on notice: Don’t diss Christmas

By Marie Szaniszlo

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - Updated: 12:58 AM EST

Jerry Falwell and an army of conservative lawyers drew a line in the snow yesterday, warning Boston and other cities: Don’t mess with Christmas.

And even before the first volley was fired, City Hall caved.

Just after a top lawyer for the conservative Liberty Counsel blasted the Hub’s annual “holiday tree” ceremony, a Menino administration official scrambled to do damage control.

“This is a Christmas tree,” Boston Parks Commissioner Toni Pollak insisted about the Nova Scotia spruce the city will light Dec. 1 on historic Boston Common. “It’s definitely a Christmas tree.”

However, the city’s official Web site refers to the event as “Boston’s Official Holiday Tree Lighting.”

“Calling a Christmas tree a holiday tree isn’t being inclusive. It’s disenfranchising people of faith. It’s like calling a menorah a candle stick,” said Mathew Staver, Liberty Counsel’s president and general counsel.

Falwell, the powerful Evangelical Christian pastor, has put the power of his 24,000-member congregation behind the “Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign,” an effort led by the conservative legal organization Liberty Counsel. The group promises to file suit against anyone who spreads what it sees as misinformation about how Christmas can be celebrated in schools and public spaces.

If Falwell is looking to do battle in liberal Massachusetts, he’ll have plenty of opportunities.

In Westfield, a group of high school students was suspended for distributing candy canes with religious messages. A federal court ultimately found the suspensions unconstitutional.

Last year, an ACLU lawsuit led to a creche being banished from an elementary school display in South Norwood.

In Lexington, the Knights of Columbus filed a lawsuit challenging selectmen’s decision to bar them from erecting a creche on the town green, but a federal judge upheld the ban.

“Today, it seems like all religious symbols are being erased,” said Kathleen Hintlian, a Lexington mother of five who used to take her children to visit the creche each year. “I thought it represented hope and peace. And we need that especially in our world today.”

Falwell urged the 500,000 recipients of his weekly e-mail to “resist bullying tactics of the ACLU and others who intimidate school and government officials by spreading misinformation about Christmas.”

The ACLU of Massachusetts struck back, noting its support of two women who were fired from a Raynham racetrack several years ago because they refused to work on Christmas.

“We support both separation of church and state and religious freedom,” said Sarah Wunsch, staff attorney for the ACLU of Massachusetts. “I think it’s wrong of Falwell – and against the spirit of the season – to cast this as us versus them.”

[WeaponXDawkins]

It appears the gutless libs caved. All those scary Christians

http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=113565&format=text

Falwell’s faithful put Hub on notice: Don’t diss Christmas

By Marie Szaniszlo

Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - Updated: 12:58 AM EST

Jerry Falwell and an army of conservative lawyers drew a line in the snow yesterday, warning Boston and other cities: Don’t mess with Christmas.

And even before the first volley was fired, City Hall caved.

Just after a top lawyer for the conservative Liberty Counsel blasted the Hub’s annual “holiday tree” ceremony, a Menino administration official scrambled to do damage control.

“This is a Christmas tree,” Boston Parks Commissioner Toni Pollak insisted about the Nova Scotia spruce the city will light Dec. 1 on historic Boston Common. “It’s definitely a Christmas tree.”

However, the city’s official Web site refers to the event as “Boston’s Official Holiday Tree Lighting.”

“Calling a Christmas tree a holiday tree isn’t being inclusive. It’s disenfranchising people of faith. It’s like calling a menorah a candle stick,” said Mathew Staver, Liberty Counsel’s president and general counsel.

Falwell, the powerful Evangelical Christian pastor, has put the power of his 24,000-member congregation behind the “Friend or Foe Christmas Campaign,” an effort led by the conservative legal organization Liberty Counsel. The group promises to file suit against anyone who spreads what it sees as misinformation about how Christmas can be celebrated in schools and public spaces.

If Falwell is looking to do battle in liberal Massachusetts, he’ll have plenty of opportunities.

In Westfield, a group of high school students was suspended for distributing candy canes with religious messages. A federal court ultimately found the suspensions unconstitutional.

Last year, an ACLU lawsuit led to a creche being banished from an elementary school display in South Norwood.

In Lexington, the Knights of Columbus filed a lawsuit challenging selectmen’s decision to bar them from erecting a creche on the town green, but a federal judge upheld the ban.

“Today, it seems like all religious symbols are being erased,” said Kathleen Hintlian, a Lexington mother of five who used to take her children to visit the creche each year. “I thought it represented hope and peace. And we need that especially in our world today.”

Falwell urged the 500,000 recipients of his weekly e-mail to “resist bullying tactics of the ACLU and others who intimidate school and government officials by spreading misinformation about Christmas.”

The ACLU of Massachusetts struck back, noting its support of two women who were fired from a Raynham racetrack several years ago because they refused to work on Christmas.

“We support both separation of church and state and religious freedom,” said Sarah Wunsch, staff attorney for the ACLU of Massachusetts. “I think it’s wrong of Falwell – and against the spirit of the season – to cast this as us versus them.”

Fallwell's a nutcase but his heart is in the right place.

[MontanaRed]

Why do you think that in the United States of America you are more likely to see large Christmas decorations then other faiths?

Also the "distinctly Christian" thing is nonsense. I have met a lot of people from different belief system that try to convince me they have it all figured out. The most energetic tend to be atheists and jehovah's witness.

Convincing someone they have it figured out and proselytizing are two completely different things. An atheist (usually an intellectual type) likes a good debate. (Like this one!). Telling me I'm damned to hell if I don't accept Jesus as my savior is proselytizing.

And I think jehovah's witnesses are christians.

[Destino]

Jerry Falwell and an army of conservative lawyers drew a line in the snow yesterday, warning Boston and other cities: Don’t mess with Christmas.

And even before the first volley was fired, City Hall caved.

Just after a top lawyer for the conservative Liberty Counsel blasted the Hub’s annual “holiday tree” ceremony, a Menino administration official scrambled to do damage control.

“This is a Christmas tree,” Boston Parks Commissioner Toni Pollak insisted about the Nova Scotia spruce the city will light Dec. 1 on historic Boston Common. “It’s definitely a Christmas tree.”

However, the city’s official Web site refers to the event as “Boston’s Official Holiday Tree Lighting.”

“Calling a Christmas tree a holiday tree isn’t being inclusive. It’s disenfranchising people of faith. It’s like calling a menorah a candle stick,” said Mathew Staver, Liberty Counsel’s president and general counsel.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.