Defensing the Giants

[kingdaddy]

Would I rather have Shockey then Cooley/Sellers.

Yes.

Not so fast. Cooley is an up and coming solid TE. Shockey has a history of injuries. Let's see how long he lasts into this season. Sellers is one of Gibbs favorite players as far as doing everything they ask him to do. Shockey can do more to stretch a defense but, all things considered, Cooley and Sellers match up well with Shockey.

[rvan1]

not worried about shockey. just put ST on him, perfect match

[sawxray]

i don't think burress will get much at all with sean taylor comin over to help. they'll probably have a couple good drives but our defense should be able to control the tempo and most of the game.

Another poster:not worried about shockey. just put ST on him, perfect match

So which is it?

If we are talking Redskins' D against Giants' O, there are a few factors to consider:

1. The 'skins run defense has been middle of the road, while their pass defense has been excellent.

2. Their D-line is banged up

3. Barber is a serious weapon. He threatens both the D-line on run plays, and the LB's on screens and on run plays where he gets past the front four

4.Eli has made several dramatic plays, but has not put a complete game together against Dallas or Denver. His big games have been against teams with middle of the road or lower-ranked defenses.

5. Burress has been a significant upgrade for the giants. As has McKenzie at RT, which has allowed Diehl to move to a more natural left guard. Giants O-line is moderately improved on both running and passing, but is not above average

6. These two additions on offense have allowed Shockey much more latitude. He doesn't have to stay in and block nearly as often, the D can't double him as much because of Burress, and he was injured most of last year

7. Until last game, Toomer was invisible. No one knows if he will repeat that this week.

8. ST is great, but does he support the run, double Burress, or cover Shockey?

9. No doubt the 'skins will try to pressure Eli. I am not so sure Eli will be overwhelmed, given his performance in a hostile environment in SD, and his two recent clutch performances in crunch time. Eli has also improved significantly in his ability to move around in the pocket, buying time.

10. Having said that, Denver used a lot of delayed blitzes, watching the Giants set up their blocking, and THEN sending a man. Eli did not figure these out until late in the game. I suspect Greg Williams will have seen this and will attempt to capitalize on the same technique. Takes away the read at the line.

So who covers Burress and Shockey? How much do the Skins blitz? Send one man or two men? If they blitz, what do they do if the Giants go screen to Tiki? Is the Skins' front four enough to rush Eli?

Cheers!

[redman]

Shockey's career games vs. the 'Skins:

2002:

11/111/0

5/89/0

2003:

5/65/0

2004:

5/36/0

3/23/0

Interesting trend, no?

[SKiNz Jus 2 sick]

I <3 Cooley, wouldn't take any TE before COOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOley.

now i wouldnt go that far

id take Antonio Gates over Cooley anyday but shockey... Probibly not but thats just me

[chaught76]

I don't know about the rest of you, but if we don't beat NY by at least 10 points, I am going to be a little let down. I'm not going to waste everyone's time with statistics because it is a division game, so let's just let the media keep doubting us and other fans keep underrating us and beat the krap out of the Giants this weekend. We already know we are watching a playoff contending team, so let everyone else learn the hard way! Go Skins!! :helmet:

[redman]

Its stuff like this that makes posts on this board like "I just went to the Giants board and they were spewing a bunch of nonsense, you go there and your iq drops 100 points" look ridiculous.

Ask 32 GMs in the NFL if theyd want Chris Cooley or Jeremy Shockey and all 32 are taking the guy who has the best numbers in NFL history at his position through his first 45 starts.

If you're looking for a TE, you pick Shockey over Cooley every day of the week.

If you're looking for an H-back, you have to go with Cooley. Slightly different assignments (and level of versatility) make all the difference here.

[GoSkins561]

All I can say is, stop the freaking screen play that kills us every year when we play the Gnats.

[jrockster21]

Its stuff like this that makes posts on this board like "I just went to the Giants board and they were spewing a bunch of nonsense, you go there and your iq drops 100 points" look ridiculous.

Ask 32 GMs in the NFL if theyd want Chris Cooley or Jeremy Shockey and all 32 are taking the guy who has the best numbers in NFL history at his position through his first 45 starts.

Its statements like that which give Giants fans a bad name. Shockey has been the center of his offense because his offense has stunk in years past. Shockey is utilized way more than Cooley has been, because its a different system. If you put Cooley in a TE happy system like in San Diego or New York, and his numbers would closely parallel Shockey's.

[jrockster21]

Most great recievers in NFL history was Me-first players. Rice was, Irvin was. Even last year, Marvin Harrison got upset that he weasnt getting the ball enough, and went to Peyton about it. So Shockey me-first attitude doesnt bother me.

Yeah, Gary Clark, Art Monk and Ricky Sanders were all terribly me-first players. Jerry Rice was not a me-first player; but in fairness, he didn't have to be. Marvin Harrison is not a me-first player by any stretch of the imagination. He went to his quarterback and talked about it with him...not with the media like a TO or a Meshawn. You have "competitor" confused with "me-first." MeShawn and TO are the epitome of this.

How about Steve Largent? Lynn Swan? SANTANA MOSS? Darrell Jackson? All class guys, WITHOUT the me-first attitude.

Shockey has really grown as a player and maturity wise. You dont think if he played for a Joe Gibbs coached team, he would do whatever Joe ask of him. Of course he would. After the game against the Broncos, they where asking him about Toomers TD. He expressed over how happy he was for Toomer, calling him GOAT. The greatest of all time for the Giants.

I think anyone that plays for the array of coaches we've got in DC would improve their skill-set by at least 10 percent. Of course Shockey would perform well here. But Cooley does his job, and has a knack for getting open. Cooley and Shockey are very similar in their open field running as well. I've never seen Cooley avoid the hit, and looks to punish the defender every time he has the ball, and usually does. Shockey is the same. The difference? Shockey is annoying and whiny, Cooley just plays ball.

Sellers a TD machine? you must be kidding. 10 TD's in the last 8 years. I think your going a little overboard with that statement. Its not like he gets downt he field or anything like that. MOST of them are inside the 5 yard line, play action fakes for TD's.

I was talking about this season, not his career. By the way, of the numbers you posted, who had the most TDs? Thought so. I would take Shockey over Sellers; I thought you meant you would take Shockey over both Cooley and Sellers combined.

Cooley is good for us. He does have great hands but I dont know how you can say that he has one of the best hands in football haha. I guess you sat there and compared him to every wideout and TE in football. Cooley doesnt have the greatest of speed either. Don't get me wrong. I love Cooley, I think he is a hard nosed player that can do what Gibbs wants to do in his offence, I just believe Shockey is more dimensional.

How many touchdown grabs have you seen Cooley drop? Just out of curiousity. I haven't seen him drop any. In fact, he rarely ever drops a pass, and makes some sweet catches. It is my opinion that he has some of the best hands in the NFL. Did YOU do a study to disprove me? Okay then, so you don't really have a leg to stand on. As far as speed, Shockey isn't exactly a speed demon either...I think he ran a 4.7 or close to it in the 40, and Cooley ran a 4.8 or close to it. Not exactly a world of difference, especially for what they are asked to do. Maybe Cooley can't run the deep routes as well, but then again, he's not asked to do that in Gibbs' offense. Neither would Shockey. There is a reason Gibbs went with Cooley and not Soldja Winslow.

Shokey is bigger (6-5) and a lot faster, being able to stretch the field more. His hands was questioned in the past, but they gotten better. He plays with a lot of emotion, with a lot of heart which gets him in trouble sometimes, but the same with LaVar when he first came up. I think overall he is a better TE compared to the 2 we have.

He's not a lot faster, and not a lot bigger. Cooley is 6'3 250, Shockey is 6'5 253. They can both truck people.

Shockey and Cooley are a wash, and I would much rather have Cooley.

Shockey is better than Sellers, but based on attitude, I would rather have Sellers. I mean, they are never going to ask Sellers to do much more than he does now. Plus, with Sellers you get a phenomenal special teams player...I don't even know if Shockey plays teams.

This season

Shockey

424 yards, 3 TD's and 25 catches, long being of 59 yards

Cooley

299 yards, 2 TD's and 25 catches, long being of 32 yards

just to throw in Sellers

29 yards, 4 TD's and 5 catches, long being of 19 yards

If Sellers was not around, Cooley would have at least a couple of his TD grabs...

[sawxray]

Its statements like that which give Giants fans a bad name.

Shockey and Cooley are a wash,

Gee, I was just thinking that your last statement (and most of that thread), are what gives Redskins fans a bad name.

What if Giants' fans say ST and Brent Alexander are a wash? They are about the same size, same speed, blah, blah, blah. Alexander doesn't have multiple appearances on America's Most Wanted, so they would rather have him.

You are one big Homer! D'oh!

Could we go back to the questions I asked about Skins' D vs. Giants' O, please?

[thesaftypin]

Cooley is as good as Shockey, but without all the antics.

first of all this is cooleys second year....and he's not a true te...from my understanding...

he's an hback.. for his size and just for his second year..i think he gets the job done....there's nothing would want to take away from cooley..i think teams seem to almost forget about cooley half the time..

he doesnt have the name shockey does..and thats a good thing..

cooley fits in perfictly in gb's offence..hes a guy that if he had to accually run the ball...he would..

tell me shockey would do that

[sawxray]

Personally, we're comparing apples and oranges.

Several years ago, Rick Sutcliffe, then on the Cubs, said he wouldn't take a single player on the Met's team over their counterpart on the Cubs. That was in 1986, when the Mets won 108 games. When a reporter asked about Dwight Gooden (the PRE-cocaine Gooden), Sutcliffe said they might be able to find a relief spot for him...

That sort of comment ruins one's credibility, so when same person says something with some weight behind it, who's gonna listen? Sorta like the boy who cried wolf.

I think most teams in the league would take Shockey.

[AlexRS]

Shockey is overrated. He came out and made some noise in his rookie year because he is a white boy with rock star hair who caught some balls. Different teams throw to tight ends at different times. I am sure Cooley can easily put better stats if he gets more throws. We just chose to use him not as frequently, thus surprising people with him and making him more dangerous.

[sawxray]

Ales-

So they have computers in Fantasyland now?

[Tom [Giants fan]]

The Giants have been losing the time of possession battle by a lot in all their games. The Cowboys had it for over forty minutes and still almost lost. The Broncos had it for 34 minutes and lost. It hasn't been a huge factor in Giant games.

[Carlito Sway]

Just like GoSkins561, I'm more afraid of Tiki's screen magic than Shockey or Burress. I know how naive that sounds, but Tiki is such a sleeper, he always gets yards that count when they need 'em. Burress is questionable; you know he'll play, but hopefully they'll run their little sandlot jumpball play, and ST will be waiting to lay some wood on whichever shoulder happens to be hurting. As for Shockey, Skins need to push, pull, tug, hold, late hit, facemask, whatever, to frustrate him in the early going. He gets frustrated, he gets ineffective, starts turning to run before he has the ball tucked away. It's like clockwork.

I *woud* be most worried about Toomer, but Champ's not a Redskin anymore, so . . .

Hope Carlos can stay with Amani. LaVar has to ring Eli's bell at least twice on naked blitzes to hurry his throws all game . . .

Honestly, I think the Mara factor, the wind for kicks and the importance of this game being played in NJ all go against us. But taking all of that into account, I think it's a nail biter. Their O can score in ninety seconds flat - and I ain't talkin' gameclock. Gotta play 60 strong, no lapses, eat the TOC all day and play good special teams. We know what the O can do; we know what the D can do. Special teams and turnovers will determine the winner.

[Drockvb]

Plaxico is a Va native. He might want to shine this sunday. The Giants have 9 forced interceptions this year from 8 different players. I think the skins need to hold on to the ball this Sunday and keep the giants offense on the sideline. This is the biggest game of the year so far.

[jrockster21]

Its statements like that which give Giants fans a bad name.

Shockey and Cooley are a wash,

Gee, I was just thinking that your last statement (and most of that thread), are what gives Redskins fans a bad name.

What if Giants' fans say ST and Brent Alexander are a wash? They are about the same size, same speed, blah, blah, blah. Alexander doesn't have multiple appearances on America's Most Wanted, so they would rather have him.

You are one big Homer! D'oh!

Could we go back to the questions I asked about Skins' D vs. Giants' O, please?

Okay...call me a homer all you want. But saying ST and Brent Alexander are a wash is complete lunacy. Brent Alexander (who the hell is that, anyway) is 5'11 and 200 pounds. ST is 6'2 and 232 pounds. Slightly different. :doh:

And I'm sure Taylor can smoke Brent, whoever the hell he is. Is he the peanut guy in the Giants stands or something? The peanut guy could probably do a better job than the GMen's secondary has done...