What would you give.....

[Art]

Aaron Smith is a restricted free agent with the Steelers who has been tendered a contract that would require a team pay a first round pick to steal him away. I do not believe he's worth a first round pick, but, he's a big guy who was an end in the 3-4 and certainly capable of playing end/tackle in the 4-3. He's pretty young and seems to be a coming player who is upset with not getting a better offer from the Steelers and he may hold out because of it.

If it gets ugly, would you give a third rounder for him, or more, or less, or absolutely NOTHING .

[@DCGoldPants]

I would give a 3rd rounder if we were trying a 3-4. No 1st rounders.

[Zen-like Todd]

I'll give up a 3rd rounder.

[bulldog]

if the Redskins were the Rams and were picking at #30, Smith WOULD be worth a #1 pick, given his age and experience.

but the Skins could be picking around #12-#16 again next season and that is too high a pick to give up at this point.

we desperately need help at DT, OG and perhaps RB if Davis leaves after 2002, so that #1 pick will be key to filling one of those holes.

[Dirk Diggler]

I'd give a 2nd rounder AND a player. He would really complete our defense.

[Zen-like Todd]

I changed my mind, I'll give up a 2nd rounder.

[Funkyalligator]

He seems like a pretty good player, on who has steadily improved throughout his 4 nfl seasons, he had 8 sacks last year and 4 the year before that. Here is his player page.

http://www.nfl.com/players/133412.htm

[bulldog]

how about a one up swap for Ladell Betts? :laugh:

wouldn't you know it............Betts was a pick we all questioned, thinking he might have really been a #3 or #4 pick projected by the Skins in round 2...............

and HE is the draft pick that is holding the team up in negotiations of a contract and being the least cooperative

I sure hope this bum has some talent to display when the preseason rolls around.

[Dirk Diggler]

You don't judge a 3-4 end by sacks. You ask "Did he keep lineman off your linebacks."

If the answer is yes, then he wouldn't excel at sacking the QB. He'd get a garbage sack every now and then. 8 sacks from a 3-4 DE who is REALLY doing the job against the run is sweet.

The only 3-4 DE I've seen with more than that was Bruce Smith in his prime. But he was a freak.

[Om]

Bulldog, I'm thinking you're going to be surprised about Betts in the not-too-distant future. Since draft day, I've had a good feeling about this kid, based on little more than the highlight packages I've seen and some of the comments filtering out of Ashburn.

I have a feeling he'll be a pleasant surprise as a change-up and 3rd-down back this year. Beyond that, it's silly to try to project, due to the uncertainty over S. Davis ... but I have this gut feeling the kid could turn out to be pretty good in an SS offense (and if you look to your left, you'll notice I have quite a gut to contend with, so have a little respect, if you please).

I know your main quibble has been WHERE the kid was drafted, but I don't completely buy into the argument that "yeah, but he would have been available a round or two later." Year after year, guys go much earlier AND later than projected ... and go on to succeed or fail at about the same rate as players who go where "the experts" predict they will.

I'll own up to my misguided feelings about Ladell if he flames out in a couple of years, but if he turns out to be good, I'll also remind you (and everybody else, natch) that I saw something in the kid -- and didn't fret much over where he was taken -- way back in April 2002.

Give the kid 2 years to prove one of us right.

[Luca Brasi]

Originally posted by bulldog

how about a one up swap for Ladell Betts? :laugh:

I sure hope this bum has some talent to display when the preseason rolls around.

bulldog, did you say the same for Lavar when he held out? What about Gardner? Sure Betts isn't a first rounder, but he also isn't the one doing the negotiating. His agent is doing what every agent is doing right now, waiting for the market to establish itself. I'm sure he'll be signed by camp.

Sorry, I just get a little defensive when I hear someone talk bad about my surprise pick of the year.

[Larry]

Re: Smith:

Looks durable (hasn't missed a game in 2 years). (And, in a lineman, durability may be more important than quality).

But, I get the impression we're in deep at DE (and at "DEs who can fill in sometimes at DT"), but short at "real DT".

2nd rounder, before camp, if he's not asking for too much, seems like a good idea.

[dchogs]

i could stomach a second rounder. we're going to need as many versitile (sp? that just doesn't look right) players as possible on our DL this year.

[bulldog]

a capable defensive end with proven experience is worth more than an unproven running back drafted in round 2.

the argument that backs are more readily found than capable linemen is an old one, and except in the case of a true franchise back like Emmitt Smith or Marshall Faulk, etc......usually a sound rule of thumb

my quibble with Betts and his agent is they are negotiating from a position of relative weakness and any prolonged delay in getting the RB in camp and working is to his detriment.

he is not a high enough pick where the investment almost demands the team compromise on salary and the fact we already have a proven #1 back who is fairly durable mitigates against Betts weaning a better offer out of the Skins.

From what I am gathering, Betts and his agent are objecting to him being slotted. I don't think the Redskins are necessarily lowballing the player....................

of course this wouldn't be the first time a guy gets selected ahead of where he was supposed to go in a draft and THEN develops a big head about what his value is.

Before the draft Betts would probably have sung a hymn knowing he was going in round 2.

Now, he looks insulted by the offer of slotted second round money?

Please.

[GURU]

I'm not sure just how much Smith would really improve this defense. I think he would simply add more depth than constitute a real upgrade. Smith is a true DE in a 3-4 defense. That's his best position and role. In a 4-3 defense, I don't know if he's really any better, either inside or out, than players we already have, specifically Santana Dotson and Renaldo Wynn.

Personally, I think I'd rather take a little more long range approach to the D-line. I'd like to see what some of the youngsters like Del Cowsette and Donavan Arp can do at DT and concentrate on drafting a true 4-3 defensive tackle next year. Players like Carl Powell or Otis Leverette, if they develop, would probably be better fits at DE in a 4-3 than Aaron Smith.

Don't get me wrong. I think Smith is a player. But I also believe that the Skins need to start trying to find defensive ends who can really rush the passer. And I think trading for Aaron Smith could take up cap space that could go towards finding a better pass rushing end.

If your main concern is finding DL to keep blockers off your linebackers and subbing in quick pass rushers on passing downs, that's fine. But I believe that the next time the Skins spend a good chunk of money on the DL, that money better bring someone who can put some consistant heat on the passer.

[Dirk Diggler]

Guru

I agree our pass rush is pitiful. But if this trade scenario were truly on the table, the skins would have to consider it.

I think he would fit the system that Lewis wants to run VERY WELL. From what I gather, the pressure will be coming from everywhere, but especially from the linebackers. Which means you will need DL's that will protect Lavar and the boys. He is one of the best in the bis at taking on blockers.

So while he himself won't provide too much of a rush, he is a player that offenses must game plan around, freeing up others in the process.

Other things to consider are:

How big of a contract will this fella want?

How long will Lewis and HIS SYSTEM be here?

Exactly what kind of compensation are we talking about?

[Posse81]

Its too early to start dangling Betts in trade talks--camp hasn't even started yet.

I would easily give up a second rounder--what do we have behind Bruce? Donovan Arp?

[Om]

Bulldog, my man ... methinks you're reading way too much into this Betts "holdout" situation. As far as I know, practices start Tuesday. He ain't late yet. Based on what little we actually know, it seems to me a bit presumptuous to ascribe motives or assume character flaws at this point. What do you know that the rest of us don't? Have you been talking to agents again, my brother?

Lavar Arrington "held out" the first 5 days. Fred Smoot "held out" the first 2. A million rookies, of all shapes & sizes, represented by all manner of agents, and taken in the entire spectrum of draft rounds ... have had some of their initial negotiations played out in the press.

[All we are saying, is give this a chance.]

Say ... you're not just practicing getting into full growl mode against the possibility we get waxed in Tokyo, are you?

[bulldog]

no, I just find it strange that two players in Betts and Grau that don't have much leverage and could fail to make it are the ones that seemingly are willing to play some hardball with the club.

Arrington could afford to hold out because he was the #2 pick in the draft and the team had expended great resources to acquire him. And they knew his potential upside was great.

Betts and Grau to me are not franchise talents. Grau may not even make the team.

Betts may never be a starter in the NFL. College productivity at RB is not a reliable gauge when forecasting an NFL career.

Just look at Archie Griffin.

Do I think there will be 'real' holdouts come next week? Except for possibly Ramsey, no.

But after remembering the quizzical expressions I saw on people' faces when we took Betts, and that was as much from NFL people as from the man in the street, the more I am of the opinion that Ladell has a lot of work to do to live up to his draft position as it is.

And a dose of that reality might be just the thing entering training camp where he isn't going to be THE MAN as he was in college.

[Om]

As far as "finding it strange" that Betts might be willing to "play some hardball", I can't really say I disagree. But again, that's only assuming that he's actually doing anything of the sort. What I'm suggesting is that, from my perspective, it's just as likely this is a "story" because he happens to be the Washington Redskins number 2 draft pick and the local press is practically required to report on the fact that he's not signed yet, as it is that he's being unreasonable, hardheaded or just plain stupid. One wonders how many other #2 picks across the NFL are signed as of this afternoon ...

I agree it would be better all around were he signed right now. I'll agree even more if his "holdout" lasts thru Tuesday afternoon. But I don't think I'll get to where you are until and unless he's missed a few days and starts talking to the heads about feeling dissed.

At that point, of course, I'll disavow ever having said anything remotely positive about the young man.

[Zen-like Todd]

au contraire, Aaron Smith is just about the perfect guy for our defensive line. Bruce Smith is old. He doesnt really hold up against the run. And the beating he takes when he plays full time reduces his effectiveness as a pash rusher, especially late in games.

Right now, if Bruce Smith were to go down, I assume Santana Dotson would switch outside, and Del Cowsette would take the DT spot. I happen to think that Cowsette isn't a significant liability in the middle; he's a genuine solid NFL player, just not full-time starting material. Beyond that, I'm afraid. And what do we do next year, when Bruce Smith is gone followed in all probability by Dotson? Aaron Smith gives up nothing in talent to Wilkinson and Wynn, is only 26 or so, is a run-stopper inside or out, and obviously has enough quickness to pick up a few sacks. Hell, to be honest, I'd rather have him than Sam Adams, even if we didnt have to think about the salary cap at all.

If we could somehow pry Aaron Smith from the Steelers and give him a 5-year deal, it would make me feel sooo much better. We'd have Wynn, Smith, and Wilkinson for a few years to come, hopefully supplemented by an early draft pick next year.

[shawn]

I think a few of the fans here are a little over optimistic and un-realistic about trading betts....a 2nd round guy who according to you should have been a 3rd or 4th round pick and is playing hard ball in negotiations? and you expect to get what in return? a proven DE that produced 8 sacks and has been a good starter on a top NFL defense for several years!!!! as AIkman says...get real.

plus didn't Pittsburgh just sign Amos Zeroue to a big contract to be the back up and 3rd down back!!!

best bet as Art put it is to sign Smith and give up a 1st rounder.

if you think this team is playoff ready and could make a run then you are looking at giving up a 20 to 32 2nd spot....

[Art]

Shawn,

I know you Dallas fans are dedicated devotees to the school of willful neglect in understanding what I've written and actually understanding it, but, I did not say to give up a first round pick for Smith. In fact, I said something totally different.

That said, I agree with you that offering up Betts is not a legitimate possibility. As is the case, a bird in hand is frequently not worth the one in the bush and since Betts is already in hand, the "known" quality of him makes him less valuable than the same pick next year because that player is "unknown". It's an odd thing really .

[SonnyJ]

I was just talking to a co-worker who happens to be a Steelers fan. He said Smith is looking for a $10 Million signing bonus. Pretty steep. Apparently, because Joey Porter got $8 Million, this guy wants 10. Granted, it's a point of negotiation, but it's still nose-bleed territory.

For that kind of signing bonus, you're talking paying the guy like a top 5-10 pick. Does his history indicate that he would produce at a level expected of a player drafted at that position? I really don't know. Also, you would have to give up a high pick and/or a player to get him.

My point of view is that, given equal talent at their respective positions, I would rather have a lineman than a linebacker. I would love for the Redskins to sign up any young stud lineman they could get their hands on. But, at the cost of a high draft pick and/or player and a big signing bonus, I'd say pass.

[Zen-like Todd]

Damn.... $10 mill is way steep. I was thinking 5 for a 5-year contract.