London Mayor: Western "double standards" in the Middle East contributed to attacks

[luckydevil]

What would be your plan?

Embrace a policy of global free trade( end all trade barriers) and military disengage from the rest of the world.

I am with Hernando de Soto on this. Capitalism can defeat terrorism

[dreamingwolf]

wow ::blink, blink:: I wanna live in your world, it sounds dreamy

[luckydevil]

wow ::blink, blink:: I wanna live in your world, it sounds dreamy

Utopia is not an option. I am not here to tell you that my world will be dreamy. War will always exist, but my plan just happens to be better.

[Ghost of]

I just wanted to apologize for my bizarre incomplete word posting today.

I've been in such a frenzy I have neglected to properly proofread my posts so that some contain horrendous grammatical errors and/or incomplete sentences(meaning there's a part of the thought utterly omitted. EDIT:I just did it again!)

Weird...

Lucky,

Ok, let's say we go with your plan.

1)We have to defeat collectivism here at home. Just saying go with capitalism is fine, except to an extent, it don't exist here(not the way it should.)

2) What do we do with borders, security, immigration, law enforcement on a domestic level, international intelligence, etc?

[luckydevil]

What do we do with borders, security, immigration, law enforcement on a domestic level, international intelligence, etc?

I am a open borders kind of guy( well I would like to slowly move in that direction). I want to make it easier for immigrants to come to this country.

I need to think about this a bit longer, in order to give a more satisfactory answer( when it comes to intelligence and law enforcement).

[twa]

Originally posted by luckydevil

Embrace a policy of global free trade( end all trade barriers) and military disengage from the rest of the world.

I am with Hernando de Soto on this. Capitalism can defeat terrorism

I used to feel the same way,but it is simply unrealistic. Much as I would love to see my friends and family in the military NEVER sent overseas, you must oppose those that would destroy our way of life.

Look to the world wars and the causes.

This form of extremism is NOT just about the Middle East, but world conquest.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by luckydevil

A recent op-ed in the New York times talked about just this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/opinion/09pape.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print

WHILE we don't yet know who organized the terrorist attacks in London on Thursday, it seems likely that they were the latest in a series of bombings, most of them suicide attacks, over the past several years by Al Qaeda and its supporters. Although many Americans had hoped that Al Qaeda has been badly weakened by American counterterrorism efforts since Sept. 11, 2001, the facts indicate otherwise. Since 2002, Al Qaeda has been involved in at least 17 bombings that killed more than 700 people - more attacks and victims than in all the years before 9/11 combined.

To make sense of this campaign, I compiled data on the 71 terrorists who killed themselves between 1995 and 2004 in carrying out attacks sponsored by Osama bin Laden's network. I was able to collect the names, nationalities and detailed demographic information on 67 of these bombers, data that provides insight into the underlying causes of Al Qaeda's suicide terrorism and how the group's strategy has evolved since 2001.

Most important, the figures show that Al Qaeda is today less a product of Islamic fundamentalism than of a simple strategic goal: to compel the United States and its Western allies to withdraw combat forces from the Arabian Peninsula and other Muslim countries.

As the chart on bottom shows, the overwhelming majority of attackers are citizens of Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf countries in which the United States has stationed combat troops since 1990. Of the other suicide terrorists, most came from America's closest allies in the Muslim world - Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia and Morocco - rather than from those the State Department considers "state sponsors of terrorism" like Iran, Libya, Sudan and Iraq. Afghanistan produced Qaeda suicide terrorists only after the American-led invasion of the country in 2001. The clear implication is that if Al Qaeda was no longer able to draw recruits from the Muslim countries where there is a heavy American combat presence, it might well collapse.

As the top chart shows, what is common among the attacks is not their location but the identity of the victims killed. Since 2002, the group has killed citizens from 18 of the 20 countries that Osama bin Laden has cited as supporting the American invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is good evidence that this shift in Al Qaeda's scheme was the product of deliberate choice. In December 2003, the Norwegian intelligence service found a lengthy Qaeda planning document on a radical Islamic Web site that described a coherent strategy for compelling the United States and its allies to leave Iraq. It made clear that more spectacular attacks against the United States like those of 9/11 would be insufficient, and that it would be more effective to attack America's European allies, thus coercing them to withdraw their forces from Iraq and Afghanistan and increasing the economic and military burdens that the United States would have to bear.

In particular, the document weighed the advantages of attacking Britain, Poland and Spain, and concluded that Spain in particular, because of the high level of domestic opposition to the Iraq war, was the most vulnerable.

"It is necessary to make utmost use of the upcoming general election in Spain in March next year," the document stated. "We think that the Spanish government could not tolerate more than two, maximum three, blows, after which it will have to withdraw as a result of popular pressure. If its troops still remain in Iraq after these blows, then the victory of the Socialist Party is almost secured, and the withdrawal of the Spanish forces will be on its electoral program."

That prediction, of course, proved murderously prescient. Yet it was only one step in the plan: "Lastly, we emphasize that a withdrawal of the Spanish or Italian forces from Iraq would put huge pressure on the British presence, a pressure that Tony Blair might not be able to withstand, and hence the domino tiles would fall quickly."

No matter who took the bombs onto those buses and subways in London, the attacks are clearly of a piece with Al Qaeda's post-9/11 strategy. And while we don't know if the claim of responsibility from a group calling itself the Secret Organization of Al Qaeda in Europe was legitimate, an understanding of Al Qaeda's strategic logic may help explain why that message included a threat of further attacks against Italy and Denmark, both of which contributed troops in Iraq.

The bottom line, then, is that the terrorists have not been fundamentally weakened but have changed course and achieved significant success. The London attacks will only encourage Osama bin Laden and other Qaeda leaders in the belief that they will succeed in their ultimate aim: causing America and its allies to withdraw forces from the Muslim world.

Robert A. Pape, a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, is the author of "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism."

Sad, but true - atleast the strategic part of the author's premise. The Europeans, save the Brits, cowered in both world wars. Particularly disgusting was the capitulation to Hitler. Why should this time around with the GWOT be any different for the Europeans? In contemporary history, collective Europe has adopted and embraced a policy of appeasement. If European political culture fails to abandon such a failed policy, they will only encourage radical Islamist terrorists to advance their hegemonic agenda.

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by luckydevil

A recent op-ed in the New York times talked about just this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/09/opinion/09pape.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print

WHILE we don't yet know who organized the terrorist attacks in London on Thursday, it seems likely that they were the latest in a series of bombings, most of them suicide attacks, over the past several years by Al Qaeda and its supporters. Although many Americans had hoped that Al Qaeda has been badly weakened by American counterterrorism efforts since Sept. 11, 2001, the facts indicate otherwise. Since 2002, Al Qaeda has been involved in at least 17 bombings that killed more than 700 people - more attacks and victims than in all the years before 9/11 combined.

To make sense of this campaign, I compiled data on the 71 terrorists who killed themselves between 1995 and 2004 in carrying out attacks sponsored by Osama bin Laden's network. I was able to collect the names, nationalities and detailed demographic information on 67 of these bombers, data that provides insight into the underlying causes of Al Qaeda's suicide terrorism and how the group's strategy has evolved since 2001.

Most important, the figures show that Al Qaeda is today less a product of Islamic fundamentalism than of a simple strategic goal: to compel the United States and its Western allies to withdraw combat forces from the Arabian Peninsula and other Muslim countries.

As the chart on bottom shows, the overwhelming majority of attackers are citizens of Saudi Arabia and other Persian Gulf countries in which the United States has stationed combat troops since 1990. Of the other suicide terrorists, most came from America's closest allies in the Muslim world - Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia and Morocco - rather than from those the State Department considers "state sponsors of terrorism" like Iran, Libya, Sudan and Iraq. Afghanistan produced Qaeda suicide terrorists only after the American-led invasion of the country in 2001. The clear implication is that if Al Qaeda was no longer able to draw recruits from the Muslim countries where there is a heavy American combat presence, it might well collapse.

As the top chart shows, what is common among the attacks is not their location but the identity of the victims killed. Since 2002, the group has killed citizens from 18 of the 20 countries that Osama bin Laden has cited as supporting the American invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

There is good evidence that this shift in Al Qaeda's scheme was the product of deliberate choice. In December 2003, the Norwegian intelligence service found a lengthy Qaeda planning document on a radical Islamic Web site that described a coherent strategy for compelling the United States and its allies to leave Iraq. It made clear that more spectacular attacks against the United States like those of 9/11 would be insufficient, and that it would be more effective to attack America's European allies, thus coercing them to withdraw their forces from Iraq and Afghanistan and increasing the economic and military burdens that the United States would have to bear.

In particular, the document weighed the advantages of attacking Britain, Poland and Spain, and concluded that Spain in particular, because of the high level of domestic opposition to the Iraq war, was the most vulnerable.

"It is necessary to make utmost use of the upcoming general election in Spain in March next year," the document stated. "We think that the Spanish government could not tolerate more than two, maximum three, blows, after which it will have to withdraw as a result of popular pressure. If its troops still remain in Iraq after these blows, then the victory of the Socialist Party is almost secured, and the withdrawal of the Spanish forces will be on its electoral program."

That prediction, of course, proved murderously prescient. Yet it was only one step in the plan: "Lastly, we emphasize that a withdrawal of the Spanish or Italian forces from Iraq would put huge pressure on the British presence, a pressure that Tony Blair might not be able to withstand, and hence the domino tiles would fall quickly."

No matter who took the bombs onto those buses and subways in London, the attacks are clearly of a piece with Al Qaeda's post-9/11 strategy. And while we don't know if the claim of responsibility from a group calling itself the Secret Organization of Al Qaeda in Europe was legitimate, an understanding of Al Qaeda's strategic logic may help explain why that message included a threat of further attacks against Italy and Denmark, both of which contributed troops in Iraq.

The bottom line, then, is that the terrorists have not been fundamentally weakened but have changed course and achieved significant success. The London attacks will only encourage Osama bin Laden and other Qaeda leaders in the belief that they will succeed in their ultimate aim: causing America and its allies to withdraw forces from the Muslim world.

Robert A. Pape, a professor of political science at the University of Chicago, is the author of "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism."

Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company

Sad, but true - atleast the strategic part of the author's premise. The Europeans, save the Brits, cowered in both world wars. Particularly disgusting was the capitulation to Hitler. Why should this time around with the GWOT be any different for the Europeans? In contemporary history, collective Europe has adopted and embraced a policy of appeasement. If European political culture fails to abandon such a failed policy, they will only encourage radical Islamist terrorists to advance their hegemonic agenda.

[Shallow1]

I have some friends in England and they all say the same thing, the Muslims have made it clear that they intend to take over England. They are immigrating into there country and converting everyone they can so they can start voting there people into offices. My friends say that they dont hide that agenda at all, it is there goal longterm to change the Western world...

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Shallow1

I have some friends in England and they all say the same thing, the Muslims have made it clear that they intend to take over England. They are immigrating into there country and converting everyone they can so they can start voting there people into offices. My friends say that they dont hide that agenda at all, it is there goal longterm to change the Western world...

Funny, because I have friends in England and they say nothing of the sort. On of the problems in England is allowing a perverse form of Islam to be taught in its mosques, and they are doing nothing about it. That is not to say that there aren't a few, and I mean a few in terms of under 100, that think this way, but to completely paint an entire culture with such a broad brush is false, simple minded, bigoted and un-American.

BTW Lucky, great posts. You have the exact same approach as I do to the reigon and how to combat terrorism.

[smsmith40]

I have some friends in England and they all say the same thing, the Muslims have made it clear that they intend to take over England. They are immigrating into there country and converting everyone they can so they can start voting there people into offices. My friends say that they dont hide that agenda at all, it is there goal longterm to change the Western world...

Must be a different England than the one I live in. Mainstream Islam IS quite political, it has also tended (even in the recent General Election) to vote Labour. That's Tony Blair's Labour Party.

That's obviously not to say that they support TB's foreign policy, they clearly do not. What they are definitely NOT trying to do is to wholesale convert the UK to Islam.

The only people I have heard that share the political POV you mention are the extreme right wing fringe parties like the BNP and National Front. Not nice people.

[NavyDave]

Too many liberal/socialist apologists who can be just as damaging.

If this guy was a mayor here he'd be recalled.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by chomerics

Funny, because I have friends in England and they say nothing of the sort. On of the problems in England is allowing a perverse form of Islam to be taught in its mosques, and they are doing nothing about it. That is not to say that there aren't a few, and I mean a few in terms of under 100, that think this way, but to completely paint an entire culture with such a broad brush is false, simple minded, bigoted and un-American.

BTW Lucky, great posts. You have the exact same approach as I do to the reigon and how to combat terrorism.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/22/AR2005072200709_pf.html

washingtonpost.com

Attacks on UK will continue, radical cleric says

By Gideon Long

Reuters

Friday, July 22, 2005; 10:57 AM

LONDON (Reuters) - Militant Islamists will continue to attack Britain until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the country's most outspoken Islamic clerics said on Friday.

Speaking 15 days after bombers killed over 50 people in London and a day after a series of failed attacks on the city's transport network, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said the British capital should expect more violence.

"What happened yesterday confirmed that as long as the cause and the root problem is still there ... we will see the same effect we saw on July 7," Bakri said.

"If the cause is still there the effect will happen again and again," he said, adding he had no information about future attacks or contacts with people planning to carry out attacks.

Bakri, a Syrian-born cleric who has been vilified in Britain since 2001 when he praised the September 11 hijackers, said he did not believe the bombings and attempted attacks on London were carried out by British Muslims.

He condemned the killing of all innocent civilians but described attacks on British and U.S. troops in Muslim countries as "pro-life" and justified.

In an interview with Reuters, Bakri described Osama bin Laden, leader of the radical Islamist network al Qaeda, as "a sincere man who fights against evil forces."

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.

MESSAGE OF PEACE ... MESSAGE OF WAR

A hate figure for the British tabloid press, the bearded and bespectacled Bakri said Islam contained "a message of peace for those who want to live with the Muslims in peace."

"But Islam is a message of war for those who declare war against Muslims," he said.

"I condemn any killing and any bombing against any innocent people in Britain or abroad, but I expect the British people to condemn the killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan."

However, asked about Islamist attacks on British and U.S. troops and on Israelis, he said: "If violence is pro-life I don't condemn it."

Britain has around 1,100 troops in Afghanistan and 8,500 in Iraq. Prime Minister Tony Blair supported the United States in its respective invasions of both countries in 2001 and 2003.

Bakri, a 46-year-old father of six, was born in Syria and lived in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. When the Saudi government expelled him in 1985 he came to London.

Nicknamed "The Tottenham Ayatollah" after the area of north London in which he lives, he has infuriated many Britons with his firebrand speeches and refusal to condemn suicide bombings.

He founded the British branch of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which describes itself as a non-violent political party dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate centered on the Middle East.

But he split from the group in 1996 and set up al Muhajiroun, which won notoriety in 2001 for celebrating the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon which killed nearly 3,000 people.

Bakri has Syrian and Lebanese citizenship and says he thinks the British government might deport him to one of those two countries in the wake of this month's bombings.

"But I think that would be political suicide for the British government if they started to deport and imprison all extremists and radicals," he said.

"Because if, God forbid, something happened again, they would have nobody left to blame."

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by OaktonSkins/BushFan

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/22/AR2005072200709_pf.html

washingtonpost.com

Attacks on UK will continue, radical cleric says

By Gideon Long

Reuters

Friday, July 22, 2005; 10:57 AM

LONDON (Reuters) - Militant Islamists will continue to attack Britain until the government pulls its troops out of Iraq and Afghanistan, one of the country's most outspoken Islamic clerics said on Friday.

Speaking 15 days after bombers killed over 50 people in London and a day after a series of failed attacks on the city's transport network, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammed said the British capital should expect more violence.

"What happened yesterday confirmed that as long as the cause and the root problem is still there ... we will see the same effect we saw on July 7," Bakri said.

"If the cause is still there the effect will happen again and again," he said, adding he had no information about future attacks or contacts with people planning to carry out attacks.

Bakri, a Syrian-born cleric who has been vilified in Britain since 2001 when he praised the September 11 hijackers, said he did not believe the bombings and attempted attacks on London were carried out by British Muslims.

He condemned the killing of all innocent civilians but described attacks on British and U.S. troops in Muslim countries as "pro-life" and justified.

In an interview with Reuters, Bakri described Osama bin Laden, leader of the radical Islamist network al Qaeda, as "a sincere man who fights against evil forces."

Bakri said he would like Britain to become an Islamic state but feared he would be deported before his dream was realized.

"I would like to see the Islamic flag fly, not only over number 10 Downing Street, but over the whole world," he said.

MESSAGE OF PEACE ... MESSAGE OF WAR

A hate figure for the British tabloid press, the bearded and bespectacled Bakri said Islam contained "a message of peace for those who want to live with the Muslims in peace."

"But Islam is a message of war for those who declare war against Muslims," he said.

"I condemn any killing and any bombing against any innocent people in Britain or abroad, but I expect the British people to condemn the killing of Muslims in Iraq and Afghanistan."

However, asked about Islamist attacks on British and U.S. troops and on Israelis, he said: "If violence is pro-life I don't condemn it."

Britain has around 1,100 troops in Afghanistan and 8,500 in Iraq. Prime Minister Tony Blair supported the United States in its respective invasions of both countries in 2001 and 2003.

Bakri, a 46-year-old father of six, was born in Syria and lived in Lebanon and Saudi Arabia. When the Saudi government expelled him in 1985 he came to London.

Nicknamed "The Tottenham Ayatollah" after the area of north London in which he lives, he has infuriated many Britons with his firebrand speeches and refusal to condemn suicide bombings.

He founded the British branch of Hizb ut-Tahrir, which describes itself as a non-violent political party dedicated to creating an Islamic caliphate centered on the Middle East.

But he split from the group in 1996 and set up al Muhajiroun, which won notoriety in 2001 for celebrating the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon which killed nearly 3,000 people.

Bakri has Syrian and Lebanese citizenship and says he thinks the British government might deport him to one of those two countries in the wake of this month's bombings.

"But I think that would be political suicide for the British government if they started to deport and imprison all extremists and radicals," he said.

"Because if, God forbid, something happened again, they would have nobody left to blame."

Now, the way to deal with terrorist instegators is as follows:

If I'm Bush, I authorize and order the CIA (or others) to plan a covert assasination. Every one of these radical clerics gets targeted for assasination. Remember, there is no way to rationalize with these animals; they only understand (and respect) force.

[smsmith40]

ND

Livingstone IS a socialist, he's been a socialist all his life, that's his political philosophy and he's proud of it. He's also a second term Mayor and was also elected as Labour MP for Brent in London several times.

I have no doubt that if he stands again next time he will win. He may not fit in with your personal philosophy but socialists can and do win elections in the UK.

[NavyDave]

One thing is certain England won't become spineless like Spain and cave.

Heck to prove to the terrorists they aren't a threat and to leave them alone Spain became the next country where fans of Cher, Indigo , will/grace and the village people can congregate

[smsmith40]

What would help is if the press and TV would stop sticking a microphone under this guys nose. Why should he get a national pulpit for his hate-filled, intolerant views? There are thousand of moderate muslim clerics in this country why do I have to keep listening to this nutjob.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by smsmith40

ND

but socialists can and do win elections in the UK.

Which is precisely the reason why England fails to act against those which openly promote and endorse acts of terrorism. Every form of extremism is bad, including extreme liberty and "freedom of speech. As Hobbes put forth, there is no true human and scoietal liberty or freedom sans security.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by smsmith40

What would help is if the press and TV would stop sticking a microphone under this guys nose. Why should he get a national pulpit for his hate-filled, intolerant views? There are thousand of moderate muslim clerics in this country why do I have to keep listening to this nutjob.

Because the left leaning British press (BBC, Gaurdian et al) all suffer from badered wife syndrome.

[smsmith40]

One thing I am confused about is the timing. Why now, 3 months after the general election. Surely the time for this to have ANY effectis before the election like in Spain

[Predicto]

Originally posted by NavyDave

One thing is certain England won't become spineless like Spain and cave.

Heck to prove to the terrorists they aren't a threat and to leave them alone Spain became the next country where fans of Cher, Indigo , will/grace and the village people can congregate

:rotflmao:

Ok NavyDave, you have finally convinced me that you are pulling our legs. No one could possibly think that gay marriage is something that Islamicist terrorists support.

[smsmith40]

Which is precisely the reason why England fails to act against those which openly promote and endorse acts of terrorism. Every form of extremism is bad, including extreme liberty and "freedom of speech.

When you say England I presume you mean the UK but even glossing over that I'm not sure what you mean. I presume it is not illegal to get up and say "I think we should replace the constitution for a radical Islamic theocracy" either. The crime is doing something about it.

In any case this particular guy is already under a government control order that limits his movements. A step that even the Bush government has not yet taken

By the way he is also inforamlly banned form teaching in mosques by the Muslim Council of Britain

[smsmith40]

Because the left leaning British press (BBC, Gaurdian et al) all suffer from badered wife syndrome.

You do know we have some of the most right-wing press in the World. For every GUardian there is a Telegraph, Daily Mail and the Sun.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Originally posted by smsmith40

When you say England I presume you mean the UK but even glossing over that I'm not sure what you mean. I presume it is not illegal to get up and say "I think we should replace the constitution for a radical Islamic theocracy" either. The crime is doing something about it.

In any case this particular guy is already under a government control order that limits his movements. A step that even the Bush government has not yet taken

By the way he is also inforamlly banned form teaching in mosques by the Muslim Council of Britain

He is openly promoting "jihad" and encouraging Muslims everywhere to attack. To wit: "But Islam is a message of war for those who declare war against Muslims," he said. His street speeches are far more direct. In the US, if I threaten to kill someone, I go to jail. Period. The same must hold true in this case. If you promote terrorism, killings, etc., then you should be held accountable.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

But again, we must understand that the GWOT is a different kind of warfare that is new to the West. I say again, if I'm Bush, I authorize and direct the CIA (or others) to conduct covert, clandestine assasinations targeting these people. One by one, snuff them out.