Veretax

The talk about Howell reminded me about a QB from the old Gibbs days. 

Have we forgtten mark Rypien's first season?  He came in game 4 these were his stats



I wonder if we were spoiled.  Look at that low TD/INT rate. 

here's 89:





We had GREAT offensive lines back then.  Sam howel was sacked was it 49 times? no it was 65 Times!

So if you don't have quality coaching, and you don't have a quality o-line, and your supporting cast is not getting open enough, welll.

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Wait wait wait…. we’re bad? 

Noone here is saying we tha fans are bad. If you thought that's what this thraed is about, you are misunderstanding.

My point in the op, was to point out that we are all scarred by decades of mental, emotional, and stressful abuse of this franchise by Dan Snyder and his chosen 'handlers'.  

If I have learned anything from my experience recently, of grieving for the loss of my first wife, it is that at some point we must exhale, admit that we still love them, but we cannot live in the trauma of the past.   We also need to admit that we can only control, what we can controll.  People who run businesses, and teams, will end up doing what they want, and whether they listen to us fans or not in the end we don't make the decisions, because we don't write the pay checks.  All we do is pay to watch, and buy merchandise.  So, we need to get space in our minds from all that happened from Ron all the way back to Norv, and we need to all of us go to the window, open it, stick our heads out and yell, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take this anymore.  I don't have to relieve  and be okay with it anymore, and I don't have to let it hurt me anymore. We need to heal, we need to get back to loving the franchise that represents our hopes and dreams, and we need to give them a chance to earn our trust on the field, and it may take more than a year to do it.   

 

How crazy would it be if we hired an assistant out from under Johnson, and he's as good as McVey?

But I like the candidates we are looking at.  

So could we be in the mixx for Kingsbury? (Raiders apparently bungled the compensation package, and he's still available)

I defnitely agree with that.  I certainly did not know who he was before.  One thing people are short selling. Quinn had to suffer humility and not work as HC after he was ousted in Atlanta, and he showed potential in several places as a Coordinator.   Ron, never really had to suffer and evaluate himself, and I think that hubris + Snyders preeminient hubris ('Happy thanksgiving? really?') Combined in a situation that was never going to work.  It was only good for the character reasons, but Ron was not the only option that could have done that, but noone was going to succeed these 4 years, if we are honest, we know Snyder had to go, it was time.

Now we could bottom out more, its possible too, HC choices are crap rolls.   Unlike previous years we've been looking there aren't a tone of experienced candidates out there to look at.  Billicheck is 72???   Harbaugh was never going to be a fit for obvious reasons, so what can you do?

WHat would be interesting, what happens if Andy Reid wins the SB, and retires.  who gets that spot?  I don't want to dereail our discussion with that (maybe it is good for the other forum), but there has been some stuff hinted on some programs that it wouldn't surprise people if he did.

 

Kevin Sheehan pointed out this week that we are a fanbase with severe trauma response when things don't make sense to us.  A lot of people are completey disheveled over the Quinn hire, and I laugh at this, because who among any of the Head coaches that were hired, were actually turning THIS debacle of a roster around in one season? I think Adam Peters is the right person for this rebuild, we needed him, like bread needs a little love to dress it up before being munched on. I think we as fans, all need to look in the mirror.  We didn't make our franchise this way, we are not responsible for its current condition. 

But we are responsible. We are responsible for how we allow ourselves to react, and how we allow the current state of the team to impact us mentally and emotionally.  I am as guilty as any of us, frankly, and I had to step away because I literally could not support cognitive dissonance on trying to support this squad while Snyder was still here any longer.  I watched from a far and said little, I feel a bit more whole today, because whether Harris will be a great owner or not, at least we have hope of having people who know football making decisions.

So while we remember that, let's consider this HC hire.  Were we really thinking we were going to land a HC, a top QB, and then its on like donkey kong?  Now I won't be surprised if we manage to win the East this year, as insane as that sounds coming out of my mouth, ALl three of our rivals are having internal strife and discord, maybe they fix it before we see them in FedEx, but a few things fixed, and this team is in the hunt for sure.  But let's be real, are we going to be perenial contenders, just plugging a couple of holes and moving forward?

No way.  

I wrote a lengthy comment on a YT channel earlier, and I had to admit, it may be even worse than we think it is.   

This team was historically, historically bad.  Make sure you get this.  They weren't just Historically bad the last few years, but they were so historically bad, that they set negative records for the Franchise predating Joe Gibbs 1 I believe.   How bad?

The 2023 Commanders have allowed the most points in a season in franchise history, with 480 points. 
https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/2024/01/03/washington-commanders-have-allowed-the-most-points-in-franchise-history-in-2023-nfl-season/#:~:text=After the Commanders allowed 27,when Washington allowed 478 points.

Sam Howell was sacked 65 times!  That's 16 more than Trent Green and Norm Sneed in 98/61!
Brian Robinson, our lead RB, had 15 Games he started, he had 178 attempts, and only 733 yards, with 5 Touchdowns.  For the lead back, that's the wost performance since:
1980 (but between Wilbur Jackson, and Clarence Harmon, we had 1100 yds) Going back this would compare to the 1976 Riuggins Season, when he had only 572 Yards but (14 games, I'd say its worse.)
1972, The lead back had 567 yards in 14 carries also.
That's How TERRIBLE our run game was.  Now as many will point out how many attempts did we have?

https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/stats/_/name/wsh/washington-commanders 
ESPN has us listed with team rushing total of 1,592 yards, but it includes a 2 yard run from Logan THomas, a Tress Way 'run' that went nowhere. A dyanmi brown one.  Sam howell had 263 yards rushing, 2 short of Antonio Gibson!, Rodriguez had 247, and no combination of any of the top 4 rushers is close to 1K.  Statistically BAD

The team had 39 Sacks

We needed a 17th game to Get Terry Mac to 1K yards receiving!  And the shocker to me is that puts him at 18th among WRs with 14 or more games started.   He was only targeted 132, times, that's more than Pierre Garcon in 2016 and COoley in 2008.

He had only 4 TDs this year.  which somehow, still qualifies him as 27th among Wide Receivers with 14 or more games started.

The next wr ws Samuel: with 613 yards and 4 TDs
Logan thomas? 496 yds and 4 TDs.
Jahan Dotson? 518 yds and 4 TDs

To say we were impotent on offense for much of the year would be underselling it especially in the Passing Game.

So what about that Defense?

We were DEAD last in total team defense giving up an obscene 6,612 yards to or opponents. and what's telling is only 3 other teams had to play more offensive plays on Defense:
We were also next to dead last in yards per play (5.9, to cincy's 6.0, denvers, 5.8, and Zona's 5.7, even the Hapless Giants were better than us with 5.6 yards per play.
Seattle with 1147, and Indy with 1137 (we were 1117)

We were the Tenth worse in takeways with a yawning, 18, tied with Phily, Green Bay, and New England  (Zona, KC, Atlanta, LA Rams, Titans, and Panthers all had fewer, the panthers only had 11. just wow) The point is, hardly one turnover a game.

We were 13th in Fumbles lost with 10.  
We were third in 1st Downs allowed and could not get off the field with 364 Only ahed of Arizona and Seattle, (369/380)
We were 7th in Completions allowed with 396 with only Jax, Tampa, Chicago, 49ers, Eagles, and Vikings allowing more. I was a bit surprised Eagles, and 49ers were higher than us on this one)
We were dead last in Passing yards allowed with 4457, nearly a 150 above the Eagles !.  
We were dead last in passing TDs allowed with 39 (4 more than Philly!)


Surprisingly we only threw 8 Interceptions.  That's actually 27th in INTs thrown.  Hard to know if that's a deceptive stats given the number of Sacks Sam and Jacoby Suffered combined.  (unles I'm miss reading this Interception's thrown stat, and its the oppositions passes being intercepted in which case that puts us at 6th?.)
We were 2nd worst in 7.0 Yards per pass completed allowed.

And I had thought our Rushing D was actually decent, I was wrong, we were 6th worse giving up 2155 yards. (only the packers (2181), Giants (2251), Broncos (2331), Seahawks (2352), Cards (2434) had more.
We were 11th worse in Rushing TDs given up with 11.

pro football reference's advanced team defense has us as 7th worst in Total Air Yards per completion with 2424, 2197 YAC allowed (8th worst), and we were 6th wors in hurries with 34, 1 better than Dallas astonishingly.  7th worst in Team sacks with 39.  

I could go on and on on the stats:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/opp.htm#all_team_stats

We have a ton, a ton of players who expired contracts, that's why we have so much Cap Space, let's not pretend we have cap space because the roster was managed well.


And as for talent, at last check, we do not have a SINGLE pro bowl player on this roster this year, not even an alternate (someone please correct me if I missed someone).

SO when I say historically, historically bad, I mean we were so bad, we reset historically bad as an expectation.  We were THAT bad.

AS for the coaching hire, I feel people are putting too much stock into what National Personalities said about who we were going to hire and why, and being extreme fans we all went and drank it whole straight from the hose saying 'let's go'.  Well folks, This isn't the Synder/Ceratto, or even Snyder/Allen group.  They aren't leaking like a screen door on a submarine to the press, so when people aren't talking, the press will talk to people with third or fourth hand knowledge, and spin speculation.  Local reporters had much more info than national folks for the most part only near the end when shefter started saying, don't presume that the projected stops in the HC carousel end up this way, one or both seattle and washington may turn out different.  (this is why you heard talk about Bellichick for example)

Now we have seen a lot of teams go from worst to playoffs, we may even make the playoffs next year, you just don't know, but when you look at our team, Washington fans needed a reality check.  Even with new ownership, a house cleaning, the #2 pick in the draft and wads of Cap Space, we were not the best opening in the League, nor where we the second.  It might be debatable if we were the third or fourth, frankly, we need to stop letting our overinflated opinions of this franchise dilute ourselves into thinking we are more than we are. We have to earn respect back, it may take time.

The best openings this year were in: San Diego, Seattle, Atlanta.... It's hard to rank Las Vegas, Tennessee, and New England since they went internal with their respective hires.  The Panthers were clearly the worse position.  


So as much as people may not like the Dan Quinn hire because - its a microwave league - we want those instant results, I feel its going to take time to fix everything.   Will we resign Curl and Fuller? If not there are two holes we know we need to fill somewhere  There aren't a lot of quality safeties in Free agency the last time I checked.  Corner might be more possible.

We all know how bad our Linebacking core has been.  Davis has 1 year left on his deal.  We may need a DT and at least one Edge Rusher (DE probably) because we traded Sweat/Young away. (I think there are some solid FAs that can be stop gaps or end their career here. 

I'll let someone else look at Offense and make suggestions on what we might be able to look forward to, I think we are scraping the barrel at RB after Robinson, and Tight Ends are hidden, but I don't see retaining Gibson, but I don't know who we replace him with either.

This is going to be a hard slow rebuild unless we really nail FA and draft, and while Peters is supposed to be ELITE as a talent evaluator, he can only pick from the talent that is available this year.  So, in conclusion, friends, I think we need to be patient, we need to recalibrate and get ready for a possibly slow ride, cheer this team on as we begin to fix things schematically and with fresh blood, but we need to give this team time to figure it out, we may literally be starting completely new for many of our vets even with new coaches.   I just wanted to take a moment to say what I've been thinking.  Am I elated by the Quinn hire?  No, but I remain unconvinced that there was a single person available that would have brought enough to justify the kind of expectations some people thought we would have with say Ben Johnson.  Maybe I'm just pessimistic, but we always tend to over value our guys, and I think we need to keep in mind, that we had inept personnel management, and likely, inept coaching for 3-4 years.  We don't really know what we have in any of these guys.  (maybe with Terry/Tress Way we do, Payne/Allen) other than that, It could be a lot of growing pains, and does it make sense to draft a top QB this year knowing this? if we do we may need to sit them and many will not like that, but it may take 6 weeks for a new OL to gel well.)

I'm optimistic that we are getting up off the mat, but we may have a bit of a climb ahead of us, because we were unfortunately, historically, just THAT bad.

I thank you for your time.  I would love to hear What positions people think we might be able to make appreciable changes to make us at least a bit more competitive next year, but I'm not even sure where we start when I look at this roster.


 












 

1 hour ago, Xameil said:

Man when i saw all this about the Supe RBo Wl spelling I couldn't help think, the first person wasn't expecting a kind of spanish inquisition.

 

47 minutes ago, Lombardi's_kid_brother said:

It's this:

 

Ownership knew in August that barring a miraculous season, they were firing Ron the second the season ended. By early October, it should have been clear that this was not a miraculous season.

 

So, you would think they would have been having back-channel talks and making lists and doing all the borderline legal stuff you need to do to plan for your next coach. I kind expected that they would have coaches 1, 2, and 3 pretty-well vetted and know exactly what you need to do to land them.

 

Instead, it seemed like they cast this really wide net and were gathering all their information in January and didn't really know anything about anyone.

 

Again, that's just perception.

I'll provise you the missing piece here.   DDoing all that would have totally been a Bruce Allen/Snyder move.  Harris wants to set the record straight that he is an honorable, respectful owner, and he will honor a Contract even if he knows he won't renew it.   He did it differently because he wanted to send the message that he will run this franchise differently than Dan, and it will be done with integrity, at least, that has been my assessment.  I admit I have bcome so used to seeing coaches fired mid season that I'd never thought about it, but it wasn't Ron's fault he was put in an untenable position to win.  Dan's fingers are on all of it.   Also, being desparate for leadership, can get into issues of 'tampering', and we don't need more scandal in this franchise right now.  That's why.

3 minutes ago, ThatNFLChick said:

Crap I forgot about Atlanta and Tennessee.  Of course Atlanta has a QB problem.

There could be an argument they are the next best openings after us.

The pats would have been, but because they went internal no idea.

And WHat has Mayo done to deserve a C+? a C Maybe.

When we sweep Dallas next year, people will be like, Jerry should have fired McCarthy and Elevated Quinn.

2 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Anyone think Belichik lands at an NFL team in a FO advisory position….

I've been wondering if finding a Quality D Mind in Dallas is so hard, and if Bill is willing, he could end up there with an option to elevate him to HC with Compensation that makes sense if McCarthy is let go.

1 minute ago, veteranskinsfan said:

Florio also reporting along with Dianna Russini that Belichik was considered for the Commanders Head Coaching job.

They spoke with him and some decision makers supported hiring him.  

So Let me parse this for a second, here's how I imagine the panel worked.

AP: So let's talk about Bill.
VFOG: He's a good coach I'd suppot that
OGOC: You can't argue with that record, I'd suppot that too.
AP: So we can put the Bill in the COnsider Pile.

15 minutes later after talk about Morris, 
AP: So Let's talk about Dallas's DC, QUinn
VFOG: I don't like dallas, but you can't argue with how much they turn teams over, I'd support that hire
OGOC: Have you seen how Dallas was ranked defensively sine he took over? Yeah I'd support that.
MM: Do we care about his HC Loss in the Super Bowl or to Green bay?
AP: They are part of the picture, sure, but you don't get to lose or win in the Playoffs if you don't get there in the first place.


I imagine they helped cull a list down to a handful of names they'd suppot so no matter WHO they hired they could say that.  THere could have been other options they considered, and might have been happy with, but in the end, After BJ pulls out of the running, and MD signed with Seattle, AP says I still feel Good about DQ, and I love me a blizzard, let's door dash some of that, and get Quinn's agent on the line.

 

1 hour ago, my_friend_goo said:

Wait, there's a Klein Kubiak as well as a Klint and a Klay? How much deeper does this go? Kris? Kade? Karl? Konrad? Konway? Kampbell? Kleopatra? Kharles?

 

Do I even dare ask about their middle names?

The next child should be named 'Kool' Kool Kubiak.  
 

9 minutes ago, sinews said:

I think I saw where Parsons called him "Q" so that's what I'm rolling with. Some James Bond type ish. Definitely not Dan *shudders*

Waiting for the Dan Quinn Thanos/Q Snap meme to Dallas

1 hour ago, BayouBrave86 said:

That’s the thing, this front office put all their eggs in the Ben Johnson basket which is a major red flag. They seemingly had no back up plan and got left standing at the altar. I’m assuming he got a 5 year deal. He won’t make it past 3 years. 

I think this is actually not true, I think the Johnson Hire intrigued them because of what the Lions had done.   But it sounds like Johnson may not have HC personality. And that is okay.  I do think finding out late sucked, And maybe we land MacDonald instead, but Seattle is much more positioned for success out of the gate without even doing offseason than we are.  Let's stop kidding ourself, The best jobs this year were San Diego, Seattle, Then I'd say us.  I'd say Raiders, Titans, Panthers to round it out.

I don't buy that they were fixated on Johnson, they did second interviews with MULTIPLE candidates, that's more than Snyder ever did in recent memory.
 

22 hours ago, PigskinPhat said:

If he was such a D coach, how do u give up a forty burger to the Packers and Jordan Love at home? Now ur a Head Coach? Prior to that, he got fired by the Falcons after 5 seasons.

 

Wonder how he’ll do for the Commanders, who have nothing in the cupboard.

 

Let’s see!

Go listen to the Cowboys Media guy that takedwith kevin Sheehan yesterday.  Dallas was depleted at LB, and CB and Gilmore was playing in a harness and had surgery immediately after the loss.  Quinn did a GREAT job of disguising things, but at some point how you build the team catches up with you, and we all know who picks the players.  

For any newcomers, hint: It wasn't Dan Quinn.  It was Jerry Jones.

15 hours ago, clskinsfan said:

First season is a write off. Rookie QB's dont play like Stroud. EVER. 

HAve we all forgotten RG3 ?

Stroud didn't suffer an Injury though.

Now Is he more exciting than sy Matt Ryan or Big Ben< absolutely.

Theres an interesting chart over here on bleacher repot about rookie WBs in the playoffs.... Man I forgot about Mark Sanchez.
 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2686382-a-history-of-rookie-quarterbacks-in-the-nfl-playoffs

the one thing this article suggests, rookies that see early success may not win another.  😕  not sure how to process that idea.

As I was saying yesterday, if they are settling, and it may be a 1 contract coach, do you waste #2 on a young QB that the 1 contract coach is not going to be invested in, but want to have success right away?  Is there any FA QB that could lead this team and not cost 40 mil?

Remember when Joe Gibbs returned, we went after Brunell.  WIth Zorn, was it Geof George, and John Beck?

no idea.  not having  a history of this FO on football makes it such a mystery for good or bad.

12 minutes ago, sjinhan said:

same here.  Vrabel is not a bad result as long as he doesnt want all the power

I keep hearing people say that Vrabel was never on the list, because of personality clash of some king with a FO person that adam Peters has a good relationship with.  Only way he ends up here, is if Bill is the HC, I don't see that happening.

 

11 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If that precept is indeed correct and Peters can't comprehend something that basic and instead is is falling for attributes he and his cohorts are overvaluing and hires a lemon coach

Everyone seems to think either every one already hired is going to be a good coach, or at least the ones we wanted.  THe odds are much more favorable that everyone in the pool right now is a Lemon, and that it won't matter who we hire, because this team has so many needs in the locker room right now.  I'm trying not to think that pessimisticly, but my engineer analysis paralysis has thought this thought more than a few times.

 

3 minutes ago, HigSkin said:

 

 

THat was great timing of that post there @HigSkin Kudos!

44 minutes ago, VaK9Trainer said:

Something feels very off that there hasnt been any announcement yet. Either they are in complete panic mode as No One wants to come here or they are about to shock us all with someone fantastic that no one has even thought about. 

I thought I heard someone say that Adam Peters was on his way to the Senior bowl to observe things, and talent evaluate? 

1 hour ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Johnson turned both us and the Seahawks down. But some NFL people have said that had to do more with him not feeling ready. MacDonald had his last interview with Seattle after Peters had already left for the Senior Bowl, which would mean we already made a decision on who to hire or no way Peters leaves. Which to me means it wasnt MacDonald.

Or he realized they can't make a decision right now, focus on what you can, the Senior Bow, and then pick it back up on Monday.

If Macdonald is off the board, given what I've heard and read reacently I think I'd put Glenn over quinn and Weaver. (sp...laugh why do I keep typing his name as WAver... my fingers are too cold this morning)

But its hard to judge what the new group is doing absent any history in the football arena on choices like this.  ANything we post is speculation at this point

3 minutes ago, Lombardi&#x27;s_kid_brother said:

 

You know, that last post was a joke.

 

You are bad and this is dumb and you shouldn't post any longer. I now mean every word.

My post was also a Joke.  Some of you are so bound up in your Dan Quinn hate that you need to loosen up and breathe, it will be better for your health. I don't see any reason at all that we'd try to acquire Dak.  But I wouldn't put past this FO trading for someone else or signing a FA.  None of that matters until you know who the HC and OC is though. Be patient folks.

 

2 minutes ago, Lombardi&#x27;s_kid_brother said:

 

This list is stupid and often wrong and I don't think you know football history at all and you are bad and should probably not post any longer because this is dumb and bad and dumb.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Super_Bowl_head_coaches

I took those names mostly from this list and the article I saw from Reid I mis read while skimming the bit on Gruden here's what actually happened.
https://www.deseret.com/sports/2021/2/3/22262460/andy-reid-among-distinguished-group-of-fired-coaches-who-landed-future-teams-in-the-super-bowl
"Let’s study the Raiders’ dealings with coaches as an example of foolishness. They hired Jon Gruden as their head coach in 1998. In four seasons he had a won-loss record of 38-26 and in his third and fourth seasons he took the Raiders to the playoffs, including the conference championships in 2000. So what do the Raiders do? They traded him to the Buccaneers for two first-round draft picks, two second-round draft picks and $8 million."

I don't know WHY i thought he was the raiders HC in the SUper Bowl, I completely forgot about Calahan even though it was there in the wiki article I was looking at after I read the first article. It was an honest mistake, you guys should show more grace. My point is, not every loser makes it back to the Super Bowl, but a few special ones do and win, and so I'm not prepared to rull out Quinn just because of that.

 

1 minute ago, Warhead36 said:

Gruden beat the Raiders with the Bucs, he wasn't the HC of the Raiders.

 

Also, most of those guys lost a Super Bowl before winning one later with their same team. They weren't retreads.

 

The retreads that lost with their original team and then won with a new team: Bellicheck, Carroll, Dungy, Vermeil, and Reid.

 

Three defensive guys, two offensive guys FWIW. But all of them ended up with HOF caliber QBs on their 2nd team: Brady, Wilson, Manning, Warner, and Mahomes.

 

So I guess, if Drake Maye or Jayden Daniels are THAT good, then we can win with a defensive coach....

Yeah I just looked up and didn't realize Glenn was over 50. Yeesh. Nevermind on him then.

 

Weaver is my pick now.

Good catch there I must have misread an article that suggested he did, but I guess he was OC there.

 

So here's a crazy thought, what if Dallas lets quinn go and then Washington offers to take Dak, and extend him for 3-4 years, for a swap of first round picks?

We do have some cap space. (I think its more likely we sign a FA like Cousins, but...all i've heard on spots radio since yesterday is that Daks no trade clause is hurting the 'teams chemistry' they can't wait to see Dak extended. and no I'm not arguing for this, at all.)

This was meant in humor.  We seem to be falling apart because our supposed top coach (told to us by 'national' personalities) tucked his tail and went back to Detroit.  The national shows the last 12 hours spent barely any time on our HC situation, apparently still enamored with the drama in Dallas, hence why I was suggesting, maybe we need a bit of perspective.  I'm sorry if it offended anyone, it was meant as levity, but got taken seriously.

THere have been several coaches who choked in a super bowl and later won.  Note among them includes the Chiefs HC: Andy Reid
 

• Bill Belichick (although I doubt he takes a 2nd team to a victory just because of history)
• Pete Carol (see Belichick)
• Tony Dungy (Bucs then Colts)
• JohnG ruden (Raiders then Bucs)
• Dick Vermeil (Lost with Phily in 1980, Won in st Louis in 99)
• Don Shula lost to the Jets, and Cowboys before winning 2 with the Dolphins.
• Tom Landry (Lost with the Cowboys to the Colts, before winning the next year)
• Bill Cowher lost to the Cowboys before WInning over the Mike Holmgren Seaahawks.
• Sean McVay lost to the Chiefs before winning over the Bengals a few years later.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  So let's not presume that a loss in the super bowl necessarily means no chance in the future.