I knew he was a good athlete I missed or forgot he was on the freaks list

Didn't know that Jean-Baptiste was on Feldman's freaks list, that's cool, he was one of the players i was pounding the table for late

41 minutes ago, DWinzit said:

I don''t disagree with your comments, in fact posted similarly on most points. My last post was focused on the teams need for bolstering the OL and specifically at the Tackle spots. The FA market was sparse on talent at the positions so they focused on the IOL some. That left T's as the need and a strong draft class for the position. They chose to pass on many higher ranked players in the second tier along with a few IOL with higher grades for Coleman. There may not be any decent other T's available in FA and I guess this is just me showing frustration with a shinny new QB and questionable protection...an all to familiar situation as we just about killed Howell just a few months back.  

You can't build Rome in a day.  One of the same people who pressed on this same thread weeks before the draft that we are wrong (me included) for pushing them to take a lesser O lineman in the 2nd round instead of a better player at another spot and we don't need to be fixated on that OT spot -- is now pushing the opposite narrative that we should have taken an O lineman in retrospect.   And I get its from another point of view.  So I am not hitting that take, but it helps explain ironically their mindset matched this same mindset but their board was simply different.  That's all. My board is different from people here and vice versa.  Why shouldn't theirs be different?  

I gather his shift on the position is he doesn't agree with their takes on BPA that unfolded.   OK that's fair.  That's fine but that's just a battle of their opinion versus Peters opinion about talent.  Or the same point applies to any of us.  And again, OK to disagree.  But I don't see how we know today that we are right and they are wrong.  We got to see it unfold of course.  And then we can gloat or lament or whatever like we did when last season unfolded. 

I bring this up here because I actually agree with the premise of BPA and not to force a pick at any spot.  But IMHO I felt a couple of dudes in th 2nd, Fisher and Paul would be good.  But I wasn't so certain of that where I'd bet the house on it.  This regime is insanely detailed in diving into these players so at a minimum they had a lot more info than I did from watching these guys on youtube.   So I'll at least see how it plays out.  Hence my example of Gonzalez over Forbes.  I still let their script play out before killing them on that one. .  We can't say they blew it or made a mistake with 100% certainty until an actual mistake unfolds. Right now its just opinion and that's all good.  

Again clearly they didn't love the 2nd tier guys.  We know that 100% because you don't try to trade up into the first if you are saying to yourself at the same time you know that Patrick Paul or Kingsley are studs, so lets just sit back and take them?  Clearly they didn't feel that way.  100% we know that.  They both tried to trade up because they didn't feel comfortable with that next tier AND skipped over that 2nd tier group THREE times in the 2nd round.

Also, I don't buy the premise that some have that Daniels among all the young QBs is the one who needs the big time O line.  I'll start with they all do.  Maye got hammered behind his O line.  It was his excuse for bad play in 4 games versus the dude thrived without it.  Typically Qbs with wheels like Daniels are talked about the opposite way, that is, they can overcome a bad line easier.  The Justin Fields slow processing style IMHO is apples to oranges to Daniels.   Daniels had the higher PFF grade over Maye under pressure.  If I recall Daniels had a killer rating versus the blitz, etc.  Don't get me wrong, i loved Maye because of how he'd layer throws among other things.  And Daniels had the much better O line.  But just in general as to which QB needed the better O line, I don't believe its one over the other.   

As for the third round, I liked Beebe as much as anyone here.  But the irony is reading the scouts description about him reminds me that i also liked Will Hernandez and I was wrong about him.  Hernandez tape was fun, he would maul dudes Beebe style but was meh in the NFL.  Not saying Beebe will be meh.  I still like him but we don't know until we know

I think the clear biggest difference between Beebe and Coleman as if they want a tackle -- it 100% isn't Beebe.  Coleman has the measurables to do it.  Who ends up better?  Who knows will see.  Coleman was 66 in Brugler's top 100.  He was ranked as a 2nd-3rd rounder by the scouts -- identical to Beebe.  As much as I love our takes here.  Our board is not their board. 

https://www.golongtd.com/p/part-2-ol-can-this-long-armed-tyrannosaurus

COOPER BEEBE, Kansas State (6-3, 322, 5.00, 2-3): Fifth-year senior, four-year starter. “Just a huge upper-body brawler,” one scout said. “Slow feet, limited athlete. No bend. Top-heavy dude. Smart, technique-sound tough guy but very limited as an athlete.” Started games at three positions: 26 at LG, 13 at LT and nine at RT. “Old-time offensive lineman mentality,” a second scout said. “Mauler. Nasty. Not as athletic as some of the others. He can short set in pass pro but if you ask him to play in space he’s got some problems. He’s a guard. I liked him much more last year (2022). Not as quick or mobile (in 2023).” Arms were just 31 1/2, hands were 9 ¼. “Short arms, like 30 some percent body fat,” said a second scout. “Not a really impressive athlete. He is a tough guy, I’m not going to take that away from him. He can move a defender in the run game. He’s similar to Will Hernandez. Hernandez didn’t look bad, though. He was just short.” From Kansas City, Kan.

BRANDON COLEMAN, Texas Christian (6-4 ½, 316, 4.99, 2-3): Will be 24 in October. Six-year collegian with two years of junior college and four years at TCU, including three as a starter. “Born here, moved to Germany, grew up over there playing basketball,” said one scout. “Came back. Has played guard and tackle. He’s got sort of tackle dimensions but he’s tight laterally so most people forecast him as a guard. He’s a big body, and he can cover people up. Still somewhat new to the game.” His starts included 22 at LT and 12 at LG. His breakdown in 2023 was seven at LT, four at LG. “He reminded me of the Matthew Bergeron kid who played left tackle in college and had a good (rookie) season for the Falcons kicking inside to guard,” a second scout said. “He’s one of the top five or six interior offensive linemen. There’s a little up and down with his finish. He gets a little top-heavy. I think moving inside would (help).” Arms were 34 5/8, hands were a position-best 10 ¾. Added a third scout: “I have some reservations but he's a third-round guard. He lacks consistency of play because they’ve moved him around. He’s a JUCO kid. That kind of set him back. He just needs to be locked into one position.” From Denton, Texas.

6 hours ago, CommanderInTheRye said:

Rather than grading our 2024 draft which at best would be just a wild guess, this guy goes back and grades our 2021 draft with the benefit of hindsight.

 

Probably one of the worst NFL drafts in the last 10 years. No wonder AP and DQ are just tossing jokers out the back door.

 

Can’t really argue with any of his grades.

 

Guess who gets an F-

 

 

 

Home  Sports  NFL

Re-Grading Washington’s 2021 Draft

by Ryan Cooley

 

 May 8, 2024

 

https://commanderswire.usatoday.com/lists/how-did-washington-commanders-2021-nfl-draft-class-grade/

 

 

MandeBy: Ryan Cooley

*All stats/grades are via PFF

I am sure everyone has seen about 50 different “grades” for the Washington Commanders 2024 draft. I am not a fan of grading drafts right out of the gate because no one has a clue how those picks will turn out.

After last year’s drafts, I decided to go back and grade their one from 2020. I feel three years is a good timetable to see how an organization’s draft went. So, I am doing that again for the 2021 draft.

Jamin Davis (round 1, pick 19): C-

I could go with a lower grade here, but I think that would be a bit harsh on Jamin Davis. He has taken the steps on the field that you would want to see from a developmental LB. However, that doesn’t excuse taking a developmental LB 19^th overall. The low grade is more of a reflection of the decision to take someone like Davis in the 1^st round.

Davis only started 11 games in college. Yes, you read that right. The last regime thought a LB with only 11 starts in college would come in and play at a high level in his first two years.

As I mentioned, Davis has improved each year. He has taken strides when it comes to run defense. In his rookie year, he only managed a run defense grade of 48.6 (43^rd) and a missed tackle rate of 14.3% (54^th). In 2023, he posted a 76.1 (19^th) run defense grade and only a missed tackle rate of 5.6% (4^th).

Sam Cosmi (round 2, pick 51): A

Cosmi will likely go down as the best pick from the Rivera era. He spent his first two years at RT where he played well, but struggled with consistency and injuries. He took a big leap when he moved to RG in 2023.

He had some ups and downs to start the year but played like a man possessed from week 11 on. In those 7 games, he managed both the highest pass-blocking grade (88.3) and the highest run-blocking grade (88.1) among all guards.

I have the utmost confidence that he can be a top-five guard in the NFL if he can stay healthy.

Benjamin St-Juste (round 3, pick 74): C

St-Juste has had so many highs and lows in his first three seasons. In just 2023, he had three games with an 80+ grade. However, he also had three games with a grade of 45 or lower. Coming out of Minnesota, St-Juste’s physical tools (specifically his massive wingspan) were intriguing. Many believed he could be a high-end CB with enough reps and development. Unfortunately, he has not taken the steps everyone had hoped.

There is a possibility with better coaching, he could improve in 2024.

Dyami Brown (round 3, pick 82): F

We see a ton of success from day two receivers, but not so much from Brown. Dyami was projected to be a 2^nd rounder by some. He ended up falling to Washington at pick 82. Since then, he has only managed 476 yards and 3 TDs on 29 receptions in three seasons.

I thought with Howell becoming the starter in 2023 that there was a possibility their connection from college could be revived. That obviously did not happen.

John Bates (round 4, pick 124): D

Bates looked like a solid pick after his rookie season. He posted an impressive 87.6 run-blocking grade (1^st) in 2021. However, he has failed to recapture that dominance in the past two seasons, only managing a run-blocking grade of 65 and 60.

Bates has had little impact in the passing game as well. He has failed to reach even 200 receiving yards in either of the past two seasons. With the signing of Ertz and the selection of Sinnott in round 2, there is a strong chance Bates won’t make the team in 2024.

Darrick Forrest (round 5, pick 163): B

Many loved the Forrest selection and viewed him as a steal in the 5^th round. After impressing in his sophomore season, there were hopes he could the next step up. Unfortunately, he suffered a fractured shoulder in week 5 and missed the rest of the year.

With so much turnover this offseason, his spot at FS is not guaranteed. However, I believe he will win the starting job.

Camaron Cheeseman (round 6, pick 225): F-

I’m aware there isn’t a grade lower than an F, but this pick was so bad that I had to slap on the minus. I honestly can’t think of a pick that better represents the last front office. Not only did they draft a long snapper, BUT THEY TRADED UP FOR ONE! Now if you think that is bad enough, it’s not, because that long snapper quite literally could not long snap.

 

.

To make matters worse, the very next pick was Trey Smith. Smith has been the Chiefs starting RG all three years and has yet to have a season with a blocking grade lower than 72.

 

William Bradley-King (round7pick 240) :D

 

It might be a harsh grade for someone taken 240th, but there were hopes that he could be a good depth piece for Washington. Instead, Bradley-King barely played for the burgundy and gold and was with the Patriots in 2023.

 

In 2021, he was on the field for 59 snaps and posted a 40.4 overall grade. In 2022, he played even fewer snaps at 24 and only mustered a 33.7 grade.

 

Shaka Toney (round 7, pick 246): F

 

I initially liked the Toney pick and believed out of the two Edges taken in the 7th round, he had the most potential. Instead, he thought it would be a stupendous idea to bet on NFL games. This led to a year-long suspension. Shortly after being reinstated into the league, Adam Peters cut Toney from the team.

 

I believe he has potential, but he will need a team to give him another chance.

 

Dax Milne (round 7, pick 258): C+

 

Milne has not been a fan favorite, but I still think he has done well for being the 258th pick. On offense, he has barely played, only catching 15 balls in three seasons. He instead was the primary returner in 2022. This is where most of the negativity surrounding Milne has spawned. Fans got tired of seeing his fair catches with no explosive returns.

 

Though, I believe Milne was much better than people gave him credit for.

 

That being said, Crowder did very well with return duties in 2023 and I expect him to be the favorite going into 2024.

 

Overall: D

 

Sam Cosmi is the main reason this draft didn’t receive an F. He is the only player out of 10 picks who is a guaranteed starter in 2024. I believe Davis and Forrest are decent pieces, but they don’t move the needle enough.

 

The last regime is gone, so I don’t want to harp on them too much. So, the only thing I will say is that I couldn’t be happier Adam Peters is in charge now.

 

 

.

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

The irony is I think the 2021 draft was Ron's best one.   I don't think it was awful.  But has his share of opportunity cost in them. 

4 hours ago, skinny21 said:

Would be ironic if Quinn/Whitt resuscitated Davis and St Juste as it would kind of save that draft class’ grade (along with Forrest and Cosmi).  All 3 defensive guys seem like they could be good fits, and landing 4 starter caliber players is typically seen as a success. Of course, I could just as easily envision Davis serving solely as a part timer, and Forrest/St Juste challenge - and quite possibly lose out to - Martin and Davis/Forbes/our UDFAs.

Agree, I have some faith if any of his draft classes can be saved its that one.

Who is your early pick for Offensive Rookie of the Year?

Fowler: Jayden Daniels, QB, Washington Commanders. This will be a close race with Williams and possibly a receiver such as Harrison, but Daniels is set up for success. Washington has a chance to be sneaky good. Daniels has adequate skill players around him in Terry McLaurin, Jahan Dotson, Zach Ertz, Brian Robinson Jr. and Austin Ekeler. Some evaluators considered Daniels the most pro-ready quarterback on Day 1. Kliff Kingsbury's system is good for passing yards, and Daniels will accumulate rushing yards to bolster his case.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/40069462/2024-nfl-draft-experts-debate-favorite-picks-best-rookie-classes-fantasy-value

2 hours ago, DWinzit said:

I am finding it hard to understand how Peters wanted to move back into the 1st to grab a OT then be satisfied with Coleman.

There were so many good OT options allowed to pass by and other IOL available when "settling". 

This draft will be looked back on a big success due a number of great players. To me based on team needs and the strengths of this draft, if Coleman isn't at least decent, it's a big black mark.

 

I think if anything it makes it much easier to understand factoring that context.

It was more or less if anything a conventional mock draft take that there was a clear first tier of tackles.  That tier was likely going all in the first round with maybe there was an off chance that one would fall to 36.  No one fell.  All the big names went in the first.

Also conventional mock draft take was that the 2nd tier types were much more wildcards than high floor players, all with different flavors and could go anywhere from the 2nd to the third rounds.

The FO really really wanted a first tier tackle.  Tried to trade up, and couldn't do it.  If they were in love with the 2nd tier of tackles why trade up in the first?  So clearly, they weren't enamored with that 2nd tier group.

Settling and regret, maybe, but clearly they don't feel that way.  If lets say as an example my favorite 2nd tier tackles Fisher or Paul turn out to be very good tackles, I'd bet Peters regrets it.  But I got no idea that I am right and Peters is wrong.  Just like we got no idea that Coleman isnt good just because some people here don't like the player.    Teams don't all see these players the same way.  We don't all see the players the same way.   We got no idea how it will play out until it plays out.

I liked Gonzalez over Forbes in the last draft.  But I let it age some before pounding them for taking one over the other.    Gonzalez looked great and Forbes sucked.  I chimed in then. Not saying people can't chime in now.  But IMHO I'd hold off any angst.  We've been right, we've been wrong about players.   Rivera lost the benefit of the doubt with me over time on this front.  Peters considering his rep is coming at this with a clean slate from me.  i am not going to assume he's wrong until it plays out that he's wrong.

Also factor that they really really liked Sainstril.  That was clear. And they really liked Sinnott.  If they loved Sainstril and loved Sinnot why take a tackle they don't love, instead?

And how do we know they didn't love a tackle in the 2nd round?  it's because they wanted to trade up into the first round to get one.  How do we know they loved Saninstril and Sinnott?  Narratives came out post draft.  We found out they could have traded down from the pick where they got Sinnott and they didn't do it.  And a story came out that Sainstril was a big target for this regime in the 2nd.

18 hours ago, e16bball said:

The biggest problem with this offseason is the same thing that’s always been the biggest problem with this franchise: a lack of a truly coherent plan. They just “do things,” and you never really see how it all holds together as part of a long-term plan.

 

 

 

On defense the plan seem as clear as a bell.  They love themselves these undersized LBs, oversized safeties who can hit and blitz.  And this team is loaded on that front now. 

Quinn is known to be great at bringing the best out of his D line and Witt from the secondary so should be interesting to see how it all unfolds.

18 hours ago, e16bball said:

 

 

Otherwise, what did they do? They go get two TEs and a pass-catching RB. We’ve all watched every play of Jayden’s college career at this point — how often do you ever see him throwing to TEs or RBs? A bit more to the RBs at ASU, at least, when he had Eno Benjamin and Rachaad White. Virtually nothing at LSU, and he had a very talented TE in Mason Taylor who just fell into anonymity last year. Until the bowl game, when he went 7/88 with Nussmeier, that is. 
 

Jayden loves to throw to WRs, especially on the perimeter, guys who separate easily and can win vertically. We go out and get him…a college QB turned mid-major receiver who will probably need some time and even long-term seems to read more “big slot” than “perimeter operator.” We’re just hoping/praying that Dotson’s terrible sophomore year was a Bieniemy-induced fever dreams — and we’re one injury to 17 away from having the worst WR room in the league.

 

Jayden loves to have time and comfort in the pocket. The luxury of time allows him to really engage that vaunted CPU of a brain, and it also tends to result in the back end of the defense breaking down and giving him lanes to really engage those vaunted legs of his. As noted, we grabbed a quality starting center, but we completely whiffed on the OT position. Out goes Leno from last year’s terrible OL, and in comes…absolutely no one. It’s hard to count Coleman, because he’s probably unplayable right now. Major project. It feels like borderline malpractice that the best case scenario on the roster at the moment is Lucas/Wylie as the starters — and if one or both of them go down, you can choose from various practice squad fodder. 
 

Many watched Jayden's throws.  I've watched all of them twice.  But we don't all land on the same conclusion from watching him.  Every take is good but we all come out of if with different takes.

I'll start with I doubt we are just going to run the LSU offense.  So what we saw there was specific to LSU, am sure they will borrow some of it though.  Daniels is a smart dude and works hard.  I was listening to his QB coach who got into how he approaches the off seasons and he often centers on what doesn't he do enough of or doesn't do well and lets take that on.  My point i don't think Daniels skill set is static.  Not saying you are saying otherwise but just explaining my mindset and guessing their mindset based on what they've done this off season.

Jayden has a quick release.  Compact, consistent, very smooth delivery.   The LSU offense loved to go deep so he'd hang in the pocket for as long as possible so on those counts it came off like he holds on to the ball for a long time and in those cases he does.  Average time to throw in the pocket is still less than 3 seconds according to PFF stats.

When throwing to the flat, Jayden's accuracy to my eyes was good and he gets rid of the ball fast in that context.    If you go through Nabers stats in particular, Jayden throws his fair share of slants, screens, shallow crossers to him.  

I actually thought while watching him a pass catching RB would fit well like Ekeler.   But heck even if I didn't feel that way if they want to run the ball which apparently they do, you ideally want to have a mix of different types.  Rodriguez is in that powerback mode of Robinson so you need something different. Ekeler is different and to me fits an overall plan perfectly versus not having an overall coherent plan.  Then I'd add he's a veteran leader mentor type which we don't have much on our roster.

Sinnott is an H-back-TE and is different from the standard TE since he plays a lot out of the backfield and can be an extension of the running game.  Jay Gruden in particular last season would go on and on about how this team doesn't have TE's that can block and how it handcuffs this scheme.  So if we want the running game to be Daniels friend, an H back who is comfortable playing everywhere including the backfield is tailor made.

And as for McCaffrey.  Having a big dude like him playing slot also helps the run game.   He has reliable hands and is good with contested catches -- and that sort of fit Daniels trust with the LSU receivers.

You add Biadaz who is an above average smart center who can help call protections.  Allegreti was a swing backup guard but looks like he can start.  Has the reputation including from Kelce for being a baller and a tone setter type.  In his 5 seasons gave up 1 sack.  With a 75 plus pass protect PFF grade last year which is a good grade.   Michael Deiter is a solid backup signing.    

I am not in the camp that Coleman won't work out.  I like his chances at LG, and by that meaning he can be a very good LG and am far from alone on this take.  I am unsure about LT.  Will see.  But its not as if they weren't aware of LT as an issue, I read multiples places they tried to trade up in the first.  Clearly they weren't in love with a specific 2nd tier LT type -- that's fine with me.  Tough to do everything in one shot.  But I still think good shot they sign a LT -- hopefully some stupid team like we were in releasing Moses or the Bears were in releasing Leno happens again.  Maybe Bakhtiari if his health checks out?

18 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Agree with everything you just said. 

I love that it's a priority and they've done a lot to address it, without forcing it. That's one of the biggest differences from the last few years.

 

There is patience in the build being done correctly.

Agree.

They clearly backed their talk as to creating a physical identify.  And wanted dudes who can be violent manning the flat.   And Quinn likes to move chess pieces around and do some exotic blitzes.   And he has some weapons now to do that.

Netwon is physical and is a baller.  Magee with a 90 plus pass rushing grade with 5 sacks.    Hybrd defender type.  Hampton ditto a physical oversized safety.   Sanstril albiet a small dude is a good blitzer and physical tackler.   This is after already adding Chinn who is a good bltizer and Luvu who is one of the better pass rushing LBs in the league.   Quan Martin already on the roster isn't a big dude but he's also physical and a good blitzer.

They clearly want safeties and LBs who they can keep on the field and are tone setters.  And they already mentioned they plan to use Jamin more closer to the line of scrimmage.  So it feels like they want to use their LBs and safeties to create mismatches and chaos. And wow are both positions deep now.

McCaffrey is one of the more physical and better contested catch WRs in that last draft.  Sinnott is one of the better blockers and is physical with the ball in his hands.  And we already have Robinson who is a physical back and Gonzalez. 

Daniels isn't a thickly built QB but he's a baller and competitive.

To me the identity that they are building is clear as heck.

16 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

After years of just absolutely tanking the 2nd round choices, we may have 3 big hits this year. 

Feels that way to me.

Good shot at a franchise QB at #2

Likely stud DT

Likely stud CB

Good shot that we got at least a Cooley level TE-HB

Coleman -- my guess is above average guard -- complete wildcard at LT

Luke McCaffrey -- good chance he's a good 3rd Wr.

After that it might just be purely special teams players (which is fine for 5th-7th round) but will see.

Magee -- profiles as a stud special team player at worse, at best is we got another hybrid Chinn --S-LB type

Hamption -- same as Macgee

Jean-Baptise-- I like him more than what i saw from Henry and Jones' college tape.  Good roll of the dice edge player

The Colorado state CB and Georgia WR are too of my fav UDFAs that I can recall in a long time.

This feels like it could be a franchise changing draft.  And I know that sounds like a homer but my take is consistent with the draftniks and leaks from scouts, etc.  So its not just from the perspective of a Washington fan.  So I am feeling good right now.  But like any draft you don't know until you know.

As for the comps to Ron at O line.  Major differences IMO.  Ron did hardly anything in FA last year aside from overpaying for a maligned RT and overpaying for a lowgrade center.  And then drafted an undersized sub 300 LT with the lowest wonderlic score at that position.  I liked the Stromberg pick but he's a solid player IMO not a stud.

I like Biadaz way over Wylie.  I like Allegreti way over Gates.   They signed Michael Deiter who is a solid backup G-C.    And I like Coleman's chances well over B. Daniels.  Coleman is built in a lab for that spot.  Daniels is a tweener.  Night and day.  Look, I wanted more at the O line.  But they made much more progress this year IMHO versus Rivera did last year.  And heck its good to know its hot on their to do list considering they tried to trade up to get one.  So I suspect they will still make another signing down the road.  They need to do more but they clearly know that.

7 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

 

He's a mid round pick for a reason. All these guys have flaws the longer you watch them. Latham and Alt are the most clean in my eyes followed by Fashanu and Fuaga.

I was big on Mims notwithstanding durability concerns.

I liked Morgan but more as a guard.  Loved Barton but more as a guard.

That next tier of tackles -- Kinglsey, Fisher, Rosengarten, Coleman, Paul all brought different flavors but all of them had some boom-bust.  

I'd go as far as saying if i went to Vegas and bet on one player from this draft succeeding its Sainstril.

I was big on Terry McLaurin before that draft, and he didn't get a lot of love here.  And part of the rational for me about Terry was he was billed as a very special player, uber tough and a culture setter.

Sainstril is billed the same way, actually if anything he's more hyped than Terry on that front. 

I've heard to death from Keim in his podcasts that the secondary didn't have a communicator that helps direct others and the coaching staff would bemoan that.  Not much leadership with the team but especially on D.   We didn't have a ballhawk type on defense.  

You basically cover all of this and more with Sainstril.  Then you add in spite of his size he's good against the run which is helpful when you are playing the slot and is a good blitzer which is also helpful playing from the slot -- especially in Quinn's defense.

This player studies so much film that its been said that he would call out the opposing's offense plays for the rest of the defense presnap -- ala what a good old school Mike LB does.

35 minutes ago, mhd24 said:

Heck, if he's a great guard, that's not a bad issue to have as he's probably the starting LG from Y2 onwards.  I always thought our R1 pick next year is destined to be LT anyways.  Its already set in stone to be either edge or LT regardless IMO.

Agree.

I hate to be cliche and agree with some of the draft media-some scouts on this which is he might be better suited for guard but if the result is a high end guard  that's more than OK with me. 

The argument for LT is he has the length and athleticism for it and played better at LT than he did at guard.  But to me that high ankle sprain is a big deal which he played on as a guard.  I've had bad ankle sprains before and I can't believe he played on it considering how critical your ankle is to anchor.

And i don't rule out tackle for him.  But to my eyes he might be better suited to guard.

He has moments as a run blocker but would want to see him sustain his blocks better.  But as a pass protector, he anchors well and can stonewall defenders with his hands when they are coming straight on him -- that quality feels to me more guard than tackle.  Where he hits me a work in progress is matching pass rushers moving laterally.  But you don't have to move laterally much at guard.

But heck you don't even have to watch that deeply.  His upperbody looks like is out of a Marvel movie and he has the length and sub-5 speed with elite agility measurements.   He looks like the posterchild of betting on a dude with traits for the position.

11 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I liked our draft overall but I do agree with the general premise that it feels disappointing to not get a more highly regarded T prospect in what was such a loaded T class. Kinda reminds me of last year when we didn't take a single TE when there were so many good ones(but at least we did end up taking one T prospect this year so not quite the same).

Different to me.

At TE we passed the position over completely.  We don't partake in the first tier at TE, not at the 2nd, not at the third tier -- nada, zip.

At tackle, we played at the 2nd tier.  And had a legit excuse to skip the first tier because we were going QB and tried to trade up to take a first tier LT. 

While I value everyone's opinion, no one here is an elite scout where we can say this dude is definitively good or bad.  Will see.

There are plenty of people (including scouts) as I posted who are high on Coleman.  they could be right, they could be wrong.  Will see.

IMHO from watching one Coleman game at tackle, the pick doesn't feel from Mars.  Early 3rd round, bet on traits and hope to get lucky.  My fav high floor tackle (but more of a RT) was Blake Fisher but alas he went in the 2nd round. 

3 minutes ago, Chump Bailey said:

https://steelersdepot.com/2024/04/2024-nfl-draft-scouting-report-tcu-ol-brandon-coleman/

 

This site does a good job of player evaluation, IMO. Above is a thorough breakdown of Coleman.

 

I got to watch him more.  But based on that one game from this morning, I'd be very surprised if he's not a good guard.  i know he's a work in progress as a run blocker -- he needs to work on sustaining his blocks on that front.  But as a pass blocker, he has really strong hands and anchors well and IMO looks better suited to guard because to my eyes his weakness in pass protect is about moving laterally.

Not that am out on him at LT.  But I get it when some say good guard, question mark at tackle.  But just looking at him, he's built in a lab, both stocky, strong and fast.

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Sain I think is a great culture pick and I like GCs Terry comp.

 

Sinnott was one of the guys I felt we needed to come away from this draft with. Sinnott vs DeJean is going to be fun to watch for the next decade. 

 

Newton was such a home run pick for us, that it makes up for a lot. Our IOL rotation is going to be league best and create a lot of opportunities for our undersized secondary.  

Agree.  they needed a major impact player on the D line, Newton exceeded anything I expected.

Sanstrill, is basically the same size as the Honey Badger but is a clear peg better athlete.  Ditto in that size-style of Budda Baker another dude I liked before that draft.  Both have been killer players in the NFL.

I listened to a a Sainstrill interview on a local radio show last week -- comes off like a super sharp serious guy.  I posted on this thread some of the articles about Sanstrill going the extra mile as a leader.  A vocal dude on the field and off the field.

IMO lockdown slot CB who is a ballhawk and is a good blitzer.  And is a communicator.  And a leader on the field and off the field.  Great pick.

We've needed to draft a high upside TE forever.  Sinnott was my fav aside from Bowers.  You said you like him even over Bowers.  Considering Peters track record at TE, I am stoked that he's stoked about him.

Unpopular take I gather on this thread -- but not so much in the draft universe but Coleman on my first serious look, comes off to me a fine pick in the early 3rd.  

I have digested a lot about McCaffrey post draft, comes off like a Terry level high intangible and tough player.  I think he will exceed expectations.

Know nothing about Magree aside from his uber athleticism but I'll trust Peters on mid round LBs considering his track record

Hampton I took on the board's mock draft.  Uber athlete- hybrid S-LB type.  The type of player Quinn tends to groom well.

Jean-Bapitise is a defender I pushed for on day 3, like his potential.

As for UDFA, I think they might have found a legit starting corner in the Coloriado State CB.  The Georgia WR is a dude I took in the board's draft and touted some on this thread.  Overall am feeling VERY good about this draft.  Though granted you never know until you know.

But as for it being well received -- its getting A's from every corner, mock drafter of all types including PFF, high grades from other teams as to what reporters heard.  Heck we saw the Jets GM tout the Sainstrill pick in their own draft hype video.  So I like it a lot.  Others like it a lot.  Can it suck anyway?  Sure.  Will see.  But at the moment, it feels like a killer draft to me.  

4 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

I was banned during the draft last year, I never gave a take on it in real time.  I thought Forbes was a Jahan Dotson style reach of an early second round talent getting picked mid first, not as bad as Jamin was, but would have had several OL ahead of him even in that weak class, particularly Anton Harrison and Dawand Jones.  I liked Quan Martin and Braeden Daniels, although I think he reached on Daniels by a round.  I picked Daniels in the ES mock and got him in the fifth, at what I felt was fair value.  I hated the Stromberg pick, and I would have picked Olu Oluwatimi over KJ Henry.

 

You must have had at least a mixed take on Forbes because I do recall a post with you lauding the pick too, citing the imagination (in a good way) of this regime as how to build the secondary in the context of that pick.

But I do recall crystal clear overall at some point you liked the draft and off season because we debated it -- and it was tough for me to forget you questioning whether I was ever genuinely that into Ron if I wasn't into what he did that off season.

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

 

If anything, I had Sainristil and Sinnott as mild reaches in the second, although I think I could have been too low on Sainristil and that he could be another Terry McLaurin.  To my credit, I was the first one here to spot Sainristil and start gassing him up in the thread.  I've always liked him, I just think the draftnik community got too high on him and didn't accurately bake his size limitations into his draft value.

 

OK I was high early on Sainristill too.  But then at the end he felt so cool with the drafniks that it felt a bit over the top and I wondered if he was a scheme fit.

As for the TEs, I was unsure for a spell about who should be my TE #2, so I divved into watching them all back to back and landed on Sinnott.

3 hours ago, Going Commando said:

 

 

And we did reach on Coleman.  At that pick, Beebe should have been a no brainer.  And if you don't like Beebe, then Zinter, Amegadjie, Wallace, Adams, McCormick, Van Pran, and Haynes would have been better options too.  TBH, I think Coleman was a fifth or sixth round caliber pick.  I don't think his film is any good, and IMO both Braeden Daniels and Ricky Stromberg had better film than him.

Some of the bigger draftniks disagree that Coleman was a reach.   I don't have the same impression you do of Coleman from the 2022 game i watched his morning.  But granted its just one game.  No that I loved Coleman from what I saw but saw enough of his upside that I can see the charm.  66% give or take of third rounders are busts.  This isn't like a top 10 pick.  You are betting on traits.  Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but OT is one of those traits types of spots so the method to the madness I get with that pick. 

The scouts who McGinn talked to ranked him in their top 100.  He's got some hype.  You rating him as a 5th-6th rounder is a valid opinion of course but its clearly not a consensus opinion where Peters is off on some odd island.

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

 

I'm concerned about injuries and his propensity for pulling his eyes down and running so often once pressured vs. buying time with his legs and finding guys downfield to throw to. But those two are very much linked, because if he does keep running so often once pressured and moved off his spot then that's going to lead to more runs, more hits, and more potential for injury.

I am not worried about the off platform stuff.  When I watched him he was killer at it when he did it.  He IMO after dodging a few defenders as he's apt to do in the pocket then ala Caleb Williams he needs to throw the ball, versus run.  I've seen him throw the ball off plaform and he's good at it when he actually does it.  His completion rate off platform is good. 

My main concern with him is bulking up.  I know the plan is to do it but wil see how it plays out.

I watched an interview of him last night when he said on game day he just eats an omlette and two waffles -- lol, he has to eat more than that to put on weight. 

26 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I am very confident in saying that Jayden Daniels success is completely contingent on his health.

 

I have zero worries about work ethic or ability.

 

If he's healthy, he will pan out. 

Ditto with me.  I am very high on the player.  I am very concerned about injuries.  Will see.

18 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

I had three picks where an OL was the clear BPA for us, and could have even made the case for more.  I think Peters flat out misevaluated the OL class.  That has been a big issue in San Francisco's front office, and I'm very concerned that it has followed Peters to DC.  The OL coach they hired is another problem.  He's coming from a job where he coached one of the worst OLs in the entire league, and it wasn't a situation where he had crap to work with.  He had OL prospects with a ton more upside than what we have here.  They also had money to burn in FA and went ultra conservative on the OL, basically replacing Leno with Biadasz and bringing in another career backup IOL and calling it a day.  I understand you can't force people to sign here, but we can overpay to deal with an obvious problem like Carolina did.  I didn't panic after free agency because I thought Biadasz was just the start and that they'd absolutely be able to come out of the draft with another starter and some high quality prospects for the pipeline.  Instead it feels like we struck out looking.

 

The big looming problem downstream of the OL is that they hitched their wagon to a QB with a tiny frame who runs a ton and needs a ton of time in clean pockets to play his game.  I don't understand what's not computing for them about the OL, and how they think this is going to work.  If Ron were the guy in charge of such an obviously bad and incoherent plan for the offense, he'd be getting destroyed for the work that Peters just did on the offense.  Ron got torched for this issue last off-season, and he didn't have five top 100 picks in a loaded OL draft class to deal with the problem.  Instead Peters is getting back slaps from everyone?  The only pick where he didn't reach IMO was Johnny Newton.

You were preaching on this thread that some of us were wrong weeks ago when some of us said we must take a tackle in the 2nd round -- and you explained how that's how Ron screwed up by drafting to need.  And that whole point from you led into a longish BPA versus need conversation here.   

I agree with the spirit of your point though, LT is a big hole and it might still be a big hole.

Seems like you got a beef overall with his draft if you feel that every pick was a reach aside from Newton.   Correct me if I am wrong but it feels like you feel like I did about Ron's draft last year.  As I digested what Ron did, I liked it less and less and ultimately trashed it but I wasn't there right away.  Feels like that's how you are digesting this one?

You liked Ron's draft last year in real time and his off season in general -- I recall debating you on it.  Conversely, I've liked some drafts which i was dead wrong about especially the 2011 Shanny draft.   As we know tough to know until it plays out.

As far as the O line, as to Ron it wasn't just that he did so little to address it but he also dismantled it and blew off easy opportunities to fix it.  And did odd things like taking Jamin over Darrisaw.  Peters I doubt would take a will LB over a potential franchise LT.  Peters actually DID try to trade up for a LT in the first round.  It's on his radar.   There weren't excitng options at LT in FA that he blew off.   Considering they tried to trade up for one, it woudn't surprise me if the spot remains on the radar and they hope for a release like we did years ago with Moses and the Bears with Leno.

But you can't fix Rome in a day.  By the time you got to the mid 2nd round it wasn't screaming with high floor left tackles IMO.  I am more than OK with Sainstrill.  I regret not putting him on my guys list considering I was early on him.  And then they took a guy who was on my guys list as to Sinnott.  So of course I liked that.  And if we are going to hit Peters for the O line in SF, the dude knows his way around TEs.  So if am high on a TE and he's high on that same TE, am feeling good about it, but will see. 

I recall Terrance Steele being trashed including by me on the draft thread before the draft, his tape wasn't hot, he got beat way too much.   

He had an off year last season but by and large has had a good career.  Good athlete, long arms.  Coleman an even better athlete, actually elite level athlete for the spot with more tools.

After guessing it wrong on Steele as I've said on the draft thread, i don't have a lot of confidence betting on or against the toolsy tackles one way or another.

I've heard PFF had a good grade for his 2022 games at tackle and a meh grade for his games at guard last year playing with a high ankle sprain.

Just watched one of his games at tackle just now.  I'll start with he looked better than Steele did in college by a mile or at least he did in that one game.

He sort of lets edge rushers get under his pads and by extension get the early momentum towards the QB, meaning he allows them to dictate too much to my eyes and relies on his strength-strong hands and legs to anchor his way through the rush. He longes some.   It mostly works but IMO he needs to dictate more.  Slippery edge rushers can swipe at his hands and bend around him.  But he mostly got the job done regardless. 

He recovered fairly well, too.  In the run game he has some people mover moments where he is fun but needs to work on sustaining his blocks and his balance. More good than bad.

I sort of get the idea that some have which is he's a high floor guard.  I think he would be difficult to beat in a phone booth if he's healthy and on his game considering I think his anchor looks good.  And he has sort of that guard stocky girth as to his body.  Widish muscular body.  He seems to move better forward than laterally which also lends to guard. And clearly has the athleticism to run block on the 2nd level.

As an athlete he looks stacked if he can develop his game.  He's broad shouldered, thick chested, small gut, longish arms.  And with sub 5 speed.  Elite shuttle-3 cone times which has a good correlation to success at that spot.

He's touted by some of the draftniks who I often agree with DJ, Brugler, Cummings.  And he supposedly hasintangibles through the roof and hasn't played football for long.  So in the early 3rd-- I get it, bet on tools and see what happens. 

I know his struggles were more at guard but a high ankle sprain isn't easy to play through.  I am not sure he's the answer at tackle.  Tough call.   But I get the idea with him.  I'd be really surprised though if he doesn't end up at a minimum a high end guard.  He's a bit raw no doubt but its very easy IMHO to see he has freak traits when watching him.   You add that with high intangibles -- apparently not just a good dude but was a vocal leader on that team, I'd guess at a minimum they likely found a high end guard.

47 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

But I have turned over a bit of a new leaf.  I am restraining myself more, because Jay is gone.  Ron is gone.  Dan is gone.  Bruce is gone.  

 

OK, will see how it goes with restraining yourself.  Your enemies list  is more memorable than most because you hit the same people-outfits year after year:  Jay, Chris Russell, PFF, Chris Collinsworth, Thor, the WP, etc. 

But if you are letting it all go, cool. 

For me I do find the before and after to still feel fresh.  Peters-Josh-Quinn -- this combination is about 5 months old.    And the contrast to what they took over remains relevant.  It's far from just a thing here.  It's a national and local plot line.   It's not the central plotline but its definitely a sidebar for now.  Just today alone, Logan referenced it.  Sharp referenced, it.   

If you don't like the apples to apples takes of how things are changing its cool.  But apples to apples when the change is fresh many indeed find relevant.  A new GM, a new HC and heck even Ron piping in about things makes the whole topic intertwined to some extent. 

And for you, you went on years on Jay well past he was gone.  This is a heck of a lot more fresh and current than the way you approached the Jay conversation.  Am not saying there is a right or wrong to this.  But I never think one person here can say for everyone this topic isn't relevant so lets not discuss it.   I get that you are restraining yourself, that's cool.  But we are all on our different trips.

47 minutes ago, FrFan said:

1. Who had the most success during the 2024 NFL Draft?

Commanders

"This is a layup, but have to take the open lane to the basket on this one. The first five selections -- Jayden Daniels, Johnny Newton, Mike Sainristil, Ben Sinnott and Luke McCaffrey -- will all be major contributors to the rebuild in Washington." -- Chris Trapasso

1. Washington Commanders

Impactful rookies: QB Jayden Daniels, DT Johnny Newton, CB Mike Sainristil, TE Ben Sinnott, WR Luke McCaffrey

Those first five picks by GM Adam Peters were sensational. Denzel Washington Man On Fire type stuff from the Commanders new GM. Daniels has all the dynamic skills to be that new-age, dual-threat passer that terrifies defenses underneath, at the intermediate level, downfield, and yeah, with his legs. 

If Newton was able to work out before the draft, no way he's available in Round 1. He can be a 50-plus pressure defensive tackle as a rookie. Sainristil can be the annoying nickel corner who tackles like a champ, blitzes off the corner, and sticks to slot receivers underneath, and Sinnott legitimately has Sam LaPorta-esque athleticism and powerful YAC skills. 

McCaffrey will probably make the least impact of this bunch, but his diverse route-running skills will likely help him get on the field and earn targets sooner rather than later. 

I thought the roster was so so with some promising prospects heading into 2022 and was thinking Ron would take it up a notch in 2023.  But I thought his last off season was a disaster. Other teams got better, this team was sliding in contrast.  I predicted 8-9.  But lol it was a lot worse than that. 

No doubt this current FO and coaching staff thought this was a bad roster and blew it up. 

It's going to be basically a brand new team in 2024.

When we got Doug Williams, super nice guy, of all people mocking Ron's "culture change" we know that not everyone in that building thought highly of the job that Ron did.