1 hour ago, ConnSKINS26 said:

 

The pick was seen as a reach here until people started really digging into him, and even then...but he was a pretty popular sleeper pick all over the place, as a guy who was underutilized but stepped up every chance he was allowed. Kind of like John Brown (currently on the Bills) that way--though he was a small school guy with a strange journey as a 23-24 year old prospect, people were initially surprised when he went in the 3rd round. Similar skillset and "reach" status as Mclaurin even if their stories are different. 

 

Crowder IMO was a good find for a 4th round pick.  I read the NY papers and they are glowing about the dude with some saying he's likely the Jets #1.  Will see.  But I am more excited about McLaurin who is IMO a more complete player than Crowder.  He's bigger than him, faster, better blocker, etc.  Crowder is a quiet dude.  McLaurin is vocal and a leader.   

I'll defend McLaurin some.  He was no reach as for most draft geek opinions.  Kiper even had him as a late first in one of his last mocks.  He was typically in the 2nd-3rd round range from what i recall when it came to most of the mocks as we got closer to the draft. 

I wrote a long post pushing for us to draft McLaurin in the 3rd round right before we took him that same day.  He has 4.35 speed.  Intangibles through the roof.   He had a great catch % along with 11 TDs, a sick 20 YPC.    He's also a great blocker.

I watched him in 5 practices in camp and he was the best receiver at least in my humble opinion.  I get their excitement about him.  Will see.  Receivers aren't easy to predict.  

After Guice, am most looking forward to watching McLaurin this Sunday

Article about Haskins that has a nice plug for McLaurin

https://beta.washingtonpost.com/sports/2019/08/28/dwayne-haskins-isnt-ready-start-redskins-coaches-are-happy-with-where-hes/

Sometimes you want to push him to show some emotion,” O’Connell added. “[You want him] to show some of those young guys in the huddle with him that it’s okay for you to lead that group, it’s okay for you to lead by example.”

O’Connell pointed out that in college, Haskins had players like wide receiver Terry McLaurin, whom the Redskins drafted two rounds after Haskins, to help with leading his Ohio State teammates. In the NFL, O’Connell said, the pressure will be on Haskins to lead Washington himself. So much power is placed in the quarterback’s hands, they have no choice but to display it.

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

@Skinsinparadise In your defense, we signed Richardson before Quinn, Sims, Harmon and McLaurin, and we had Crowder going into his final year and Doctson having not shown much of anything.  We were desperate for some talent.  

 

Having said that, giving that contract (particularly the guaranteed portion) considering his injury history was a pretty bad deal.  

Richardson was good in his FA year with Seattle so I was taken by that.  He's also relatively young.  And yeah we didn't have the receivers we got now.   But thinking about it now, I think lesson learned as to signing players with major injury histories.  Football is unpredictable so anyone can get hurt -- but guys who have been prone to get hurt throughout their career often stay on that track. 

Casserly (who I often don't agree with) said it well not long ago which is the Redskins more than most teams have too many key players being injury prone who are also vital ones to their success. 

18 hours ago, RandyHolt said:

I heard Galdi the other day name off Richardson's injury history... my lord.

 

https://www.richmond.com/washingtonpost/sports/speedy-redskins-receiver-paul-richardson-jr-toeing-the-line-between/article_b61e54be-06ab-59f5-b4cf-ea86a7b70360.html

 

 

Yep. It was a dumb signing in retrospect from my perspective.  I've been decent (more hits then misses) at calling good FA's and bad signings in advance.  Richardson is a big miss on my end.  I was tantalized by adding speed to a receiver corp at the time that had little of it.  He has good hands, too.   But his injury history, including 2 ACL tears was atrocious.  Then you add that the dude looks as thin as it gets -- its not hard to see why he gets hurt.

On another note, I listened to Finlay's podcast with Copeland and Keim about the roster.  As to receivers:

A.  They think Doctson likely makes the roster and if he doesn't it's unlikely to be a cut.  More likely a trade.

B.  They see C. Sims and Harmon as slam dunk making it.

C.  Combined they have mixed opinion about whether Davis makes it. 

Finlay said he asked someone in the FO if he thinks Doctson has a breakthrough season and they responded for which team?  Then Keim kicked in that people are mixed about Doctson in the FO.  Sheehan talked about what he heard about Doctson today and he said the prime beef with people at Redskins Park about Doctson is that he doesn't have that competitive-love football type of drive.

I think it was Keim (he didn't say this part on that podcast) among others who have said there are some in the FO who think Doctson is a good player but won't be a good player here from the combination of it not being a good scheme for him and he could use a fresh start.

Washington is in a different spot this year with Doctson than the last few years. He has undeniable physical talent, and the team doesn’t want to give up on that. 

The Redskins also added two rookie wideouts this year in the draft in Terry McLaurin and Kelvin Harmon, and combined with a number of second year players like Trey Quinn and Cam Sims to go with established starter Paul Richardson, Doctson looks more expendable than ever. 

And there’s the added reality - If Doctson isn’t in the cards for 2020, why wait around in 2019?

All of that said, he could still help this fall. And that’s why the team doesn’t want to outright release him on Saturday when rosters drop from 90 players to 53. 

Multiple league sources have suggested that eventually, Doctson will play well, and that it will probably happen if/when he ends up with one of the NFL’s two Texas franchises, the Texans or the Cowboys. Doctson is a Texas native and played his best college football after he transferred from Wyoming back to TCU. 

That might be overly simplistic, but people believe it. Besides a fresh start with fewer expectations might be just what Doctson needs. 

Just read Standig's take:  He has C. Sims, Harmon and R. Davis as locks. 

He thinks for the 7th receiver its Doctson, S. Sims, Chesson, Kidsy vying for the last spot.

You'd think almost for sure, they'd want a pure slot type receiver in the mix considering Quinn being banged up last season and thus far in the preseason, too.  Wonder if that helps S. Sims, Kidsy, etc.  I saw Harmon play some slot in camp but mostly played on the outside. 

Per the point below its not that secretly.  Redskins seem like a chic pick by the national media, draft geeks, power rankers, to have the top pick in the draft or top 3.  While I am not with Bruce on this "we are close" rap.  I do think the truth is somewhere in between.  I don't see this 3-13 type collapse as so many predict.  I see it as another 7-9, 8-8 type rodeo.

Hoffman's take today:

He thinks Harmon is a lock.  Doctson likely makes it but its not 100%.  He thinks Cam Sims is a lock and might challenge for a starting position.  He thinks Steve Sims might sneak on to the roster (if they include 7 receivers) to back up Quinn at slot.   

43 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

 

But I think we can both agree that his time here has been a disappointment.  I think most Skins fans would agree with that statement.  

 

 

Agree.  If we are talking disappointment from the context of being a first rounder.  It's a real tough position to get right in the draft for whatever reason where at times it almost seems like its better to take a receiver in the 2nd-4th round than the first.  I can't think of another position like that in the draft.  

1 hour ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Bonafide in what way?  I mean, we're talking about him getting possibly cut here.  IMO, you can't be bonafide but be on the fringe of an NFL team.  

 

Look at it another way:  Can you see the possibility of any of the WRs that are in camp right now making the team and equalling Doctson's performance last year (44 catches, 532 yards)?  Is it possible that McLaurin can match that this year?  Quinn?  Maybe even Cam Sims?

 

You wouldn't say any of those guys could match Julio Jones' numbers.  That's obviously on the opposite end of the spectrum.  But it's not a stretch of the imagination to see any one of the current guys step up and equal his numbers from last year.  That group includes mid rounders, late rounders, UDFA's.  And if the possibility exists that a mid rounder, late rounder, a UDFA can match what our first rounder can...well, that first rounder is a bust.  

Bonafide in that the dude will get a job in the NFL and decent playing time. A bust to me is the dude is out of the NFL or on the verge of it.   Doctson to me is OK.  He's not great but he isn't a joke either.   He's had 500 yards 2 seasons in a row.  Those are the numbers give or take of the average #3 receiver hence I keep referencing that he's played like a #3.  A bust would be Devin Thomas who has never came close to sniffing 500 yards and busted out of the NFL.   

Doctson's catch % needs to improve but at least it's trending up.  Cooley who was an early critic of the dude talked about him improving last season in spite of shoddy Qb play and developed into a good run blocker.  2 different beat reporters said when they ask the FO about Doctson one thing they commonly hear is they think he will reach his peak elsewhere and not here because Jay's offense runs inside out as opposed to outside in and they've not had QB's who like to throw those 50-50 type contested throws.  His 2 best games came after Alex got hurt.   I am not pimping for Doctson but yeah a bust I don't see.  If he were a third round pick IMO this type of conversation wouldn't be happening.  If the discussion was instead whether he was worth the first rounder then on that count, clearly it looks like nope.  But that's a different kind of debate. 

If he doesn't make the roster, he's IMO making it elsewhere.  You won't find a bigger fan of Harmon and McLaurin than me considering I wanted both before they became Redskins and talked in detail about them on the draft thread.  Yet, do I think Harmon is better than Doctson, now?  I don't. Not, yet at least.  Would I put Harmon on this roster above Doctson?  Yes.  Why because we happen to be deep at WR IMO and I don't want to chance losing a young guy at WR on the practice squad.  And Doctson is an impending FA.  We don't of late bring back many of our FAs.  So Harmon is more intriguing to me than one more year to rent Doctson.  But if its all about winning now, Doctson is likely the better bet.

5 minutes ago, Alcoholic Zebra said:

 

Wha?  Really?  Huh.

Yeah he snuck it into an ESPN article this off season and doubled down on it via a podcast. 

https://theteam980.com/121964/john-keim-with-al-galdi-on-ereck-flowers-redskins-free-agency-jay-grudens-involvement/

There are plenty of WR busts including first rounders.  Doctson is a bonafide WR.  It's not a joke when he is in the lineup.  This isn't Devin Thomas and the series of high round busts we've seen in the NFL.  He's not a legit #1 receiver, arguably not a #2 either.   But I think he's a decent #3.  That's not what you bargained for as for a first rounder but that's a different topic.  Plenty of first rounders are outright busts.  If Doctson was taken in the third round I don't think this would even be a topic.  He's not awful.   If he leaves here, slam dunk, IMO he will get a job.  If he was a bust, he'd be out of the NFL by now or on the verge of it. 

Having said that, I heard on the radio today that he liked Sua Cravens' posts?  If so I doubt its going to help him if he's on the verge of not making the roster. 

9 hours ago, Jericho said:

And maybe the Tampa Bucs burned a 2nd rounder on Roberto Aguayo). Anyhow. Point being, you shouldn't cut a receiver like Doctson, you should trade him.

 According to Keim they tried to trade him last year.  I gather they couldn't get what they wanted.

I agree with the special teams WR comments.  The way I took Jay's comments is he knew that McLaurin was an elite special teams player (some scouts said he was the best special teams player in the draft) and a good receiver but didn't know he was a very good receiver.  Hoffman is using the word "special" as to McLaurin. Knowing Hoffman's style, I would bet that one of the team's scouts told him that.  He among the beat guys seems to be the tightest with scouts or so it appears because he was the one beat guy before the draft that kept saying he was speaking to multiple team scouts. 

McLaurin had 11 TDs, a great YPC and catch % even though he wasn't the main guy featured in that offense.  So I don't think its that crazy wild that the dude is this good.  Though I admit although I pushed him among others before the draft -- am surprised to hear he is this level good.  But thinking about it, a player who can run a 4.35, is smart, with great intangibles and catches most of what's thrown to him -- that's a good recipe for success.  

I don't dislike Doctson and don't see him as a bust but I haven't seen anything to think he's more than a #3 type.  More importantly, I am more intrigued with the new crop of receivers.  So it should be interesting to see if all this buzz about Doctson not making the roster has any legs to it.

...“It says he wants it,” Norman said. “It says he wants not to just to be good — he wants to be great. A lot of people don’t have that. Hell, you can tell who goes in (after practice) and who stays out.”

Harmon wasn’t the first player to approach Norman for extra reps outside of practice. But the players who usually ask, Norman said, are fellow defensive backs.

...Still, when Norman describes Harmon, he draws a comparison to a wide receiver that’s already great, one of the best — if not the best — in the league: Julio Jones.

“He’s a little baby Julio if you ask me,” said Norman, who used to regularly face Jones when he was with the Carolina Panthers. “He has the ability. He has the size. It’s just getting him acclimated, getting him in, getting him going. I mean, he looks great out here, fantastic.”

Norman said he wants Harmon to get more playing time, adding the rookie can become an elite-level receiver if he gets the opportunity.

Coach Jay Gruden has admitted it has been “tricky” to find the right amount of reps for his receivers in camp, but noted he feels good about all of them. Last week in his preseason debut against the Cleveland Browns, Harmon received 20 offensive snaps and caught two passes for 17 yards.

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/aug/12/kelvin-harmon-turns-josh-norman-effort-be-great/

52 minutes ago, Malapropismic Depository said:

 

"Not even close" ?

Hmmm, if you consider all the constant, glowing reports about Sims, you would think that it's at least "close" between those 2.

Might be a different rap between what beat guys are thinking versus coaches.  I touted Sims' practices too but I noticed he was playing with the 3's a lot, McLaurin with the 1's.  That narrative seemed to extend to the first preseason game where McLaurin was treated like kid gloves and brought in for just one rep early and Sims was brought in later on. 

40 minutes ago, CTskin said:

@Skinsinparadise That's awesome to hear. All we've seen is extremely positive praise for TMac (I'm running with it @Vanguard) but I really need to see him do it during the game before I'm a believer. Every year there's some WR who's absolutely lighting it up during camp only to do nothing during the season.

 

We need to get over the fact that we used a 1st rounder on Docston and we need to play the guy who deserves the spot. If it is Docston, then play him, but if guys look better than we need to give them a chance to shine and grow. We've given Josh so many chances... Assuming Josh doesn't winning the starting job, I'm really curious to see how he fares in free agency. 

Sure, I get the let's see it in the season drill.   I have more faith though in McLaurin than the standard WR camp hype that comes out of the blue typically about some undrafred guy or 7th round type.  Reasons being:

1.  McLaurin was drafted relatively high.  This isn't like Marko Mitchell or someone that hardly anyone ever heard off before the draft.  McLaurin was a bonafide prospect.  I among others touted the dude before the draft.  Kiper in one of his mocks even had him as a late first rounder.  So he isn't some obscure out of left field guy.

2.  Pre-draft he was a guy whose intangibles were touted to death.  I posted stuff said by a scout about him and they were gushing about his intangibles.  Works hard, smart, locker room leader, etc.  

3.  The rap on him from camp isn't just that he's showcasing mega raw ability (lets say like Cam Sims) but that he's a crisp route runner.  According to personnel types including Scot McCloughan the hardest aspect of projecting a college receiver to adjusting to the NFL is their ability to pick up NFL route running.

4.  On the other receivers in the past its been the fans who have had these man crushes primarily -- I don't recall the coaches gushing to the same level unless I misrember.  For example if Hoffman is correct and the coaches are privately gushing about McLaurin that's not apples to apples from what I recall to the others.  The only difference from what I recall being Taylor Jacobs.  I recall hearing how Jacobs was killing it in practice.

So for me I think we might this time genuinely have a good one in McLaurin.  I've liked him before the draft and still do.  I didn't like him then or now to the degree that he's a superstar in the making but feel that he can be a genuine #2 type.  I guess we will find out.