OT Poll In The Islamic World Shows....

Art · February 28, 2002

Now that I'm engaged, allow me to answer you. ----"...but, it must be said, Kefka, you are one interesting lad." Why thank you, its nice to be intresting, I'd rather not be dull. Actually, Kefka, there are times it is better to be dull. As the saying goes, it is better to remain silent and have people be unsure of your lack of intelligence rather than speaking out and erasing all doubts. "The US is the ******* child of England. Yes carved out Jewish territory, who gave them permission? Did you Art? Nothing you say can deny the fact that the State of Israel is in fact a crime in itself. It doesn't belong to them simply put. " The U.S., you may not know, is the country that overthrew England to gain independence. It is hardly the child of England. In 1948 when the English carved out territory to create a Jewish state the permission came from the fact that the English, unlike the residents of the Middle East, have some small awareness of history and the Jewish relevance to the area and had the power to impose it's sense of justice upon the region. As a follower, Kefka, of the Koran, you must find the justice argument appealing at the core of it, don't you? England didn't have to ask permission. England owned the area. It controlled it as part of the Empire. England had perfect right, since IT was in charge, to make whatever rules it desired. This is called the benefits of being stronger than those you rule. England did this and the U.S. had NOTHING TO do with it. You are now upset because the U.S., being a compassionate and friendly nation, has decided that, gosh darn it, Jewish people do have a right to live without being persecuted by ignorant Muslim and Arab neighbors. I know this is a hard thing for you to understand, but, it is a crime NOT to understand the history of a situation and somehow blame America for allowing a people to live without the religious persecution imposed by those who share your idiocy. The area that was carved out belongs to Israel because the rulers of the lands at the time said so. As time changed new rulers challenged that and Israel beat them back like the wicked animals they are. And in so doing, it has grown it's borders to make it easier to repel the repeated attacks. Israel has a right to exist. Why does Israel not have a right to exist? Because you say so Kefka? Or because someone else was there first? Either way, whether by your decree or resident weakness, Israel has a right to exist and protect itself and thrive. There is no argument against it. Not even that in the Koran that calls for a Muslim world stretching from the tips of Western Africa through the Middle East and into Asia. Not even that is strong enough justification to eradicate a people or suggest they don't have a right to exist. Period. "Not the fault of Israel huh? Give me your address I'll come over and take it over... go find a new home Art." Kefka, if you had the ability to remove me from my home during a period of civil unrest, indeed, my home would be yours. I live at 1127 S. Trappers Crossing in Lino Lakes Minnesota. You can Map Quest me out and stop over at your leisure. The Jewish settlers who were given a home by the English empire have a right to exist because those that were there before them were not able to prevent that existence. The land my home sits on does not remain Indian land because it was once Indian land. A stronger group took it and will keep it and will squash those that think it shouldn't be there. And, if at any time the Native Americans fight back and take their land back, it'll be there's again. Not a moment before. If the Middle East wants Israel gone, all it has to do is defeat it. I know, it can't defeat it, as history has shown so clearly, but, since it can't, perhaps we can find a way to accomodate both people through peace, which both American and Israel have worked for, for years. I know followers of the Koran don't believe in peace, but, others do. Let's listen to those others for a spell. "How can a country which started out in non-peaceful terms expect to turn to a peaceful resolution. Oxymoron. Please don't call Muslims "insane, rabid, and violent" all they want is their homes back and their dignity restored. " Kefka, every country in the WORLD was started out in a non-peaceful means. EVERY SINGLE country in the history of the world has carved it's borders through war and blood and sacrifice. Yet, we live in peace with Japan and Gemany. England lives peacefully with the U.S. which was started by non-peaceful means. You see, the war against the Israeli state has gone on for years. And no matter how large the threat against it by the number of Arab nations involved, Israel defeated your brothers and earned the right to exist. Sadat and Begin, Israel and Egypt, have long since come to a peaceful accord. Saudi Arabia recognizes Israel's right to exist. Peace is in the hands of the defeated. I'd take it before you have to lose yet more territory to help Israel defend itself further. "Thats right Art, the American Government has done absolutely nothing wrong. They are innocent." The smartest things you have said in this thread are here. Too bad they are sarcastic. "That is a bunch of bs. American is not an invading society? Yes it is, b/c it started out by killing all the Native Americans (who are now only remembered on the helmets of our beloved Redskins)." You are incorrect, Kefka. Again, the British are an invading society and THEY invaded the country of America and colonized it. America, upon gaining freedom through violence against England went to war with the Indians and expanded after purchasing the territory legally from the French. The Indians may not have recognized the laws of the civilized world, but, you are strictly incorrect about this and I think that's fully demonstrated. Also, Indians are remembered in the opening ceremonies of the Olympic Winter games in which five nations came together and were honored by the organizers. Of course, I'm just glad the Indians did it themselves because had a white guy done it to honor them, we'd be racist. But, that's a different story. "It supports an invading society. $500 million to who? that is a lot of money the Muslims don't see. Your puppet leaders (ie - Arafat ) must be storing it away in his Swiss Account." Arafat even is our puppet leader now, is he? You are a riot. As Clinton discovered -- and this is historically true -- at the end of his Presidency, Arafat is a criminal and a brutal dictator. Arafat called Clinton and told him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "No. I'm a failure. And you made me one." Clinton then told Powell that Arafat could not be trusted or believed. As we know, this is true and the arms shipments we've taken have demonstrated that as clearly as the terror against Israelis that Arafat refuses to stop, though he has the power to do so. No, Kefka, Arafat is not our puppet. It's a shame he is not. There'd be peace if he was. "Oh, the fighting won't cease to end until justice is served. You calling use terrorist doesn't help." Terrorism is the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. We're not calling you terrorists, Kefka. You are terrorists. You see, in Palestine, where Arafat, in public at least, calls for hostilities to end, and they do not, those that commit those crimes are terrorists because they are violating the rules of the state and the laws of the area to fulfill their political or religious designs. I know, those Muslims in India who burned the train of Hindus were really not terrorists but rather freedom fighters or something, right? I know the people who killed Danny Pearl weren't terrorists? What is, is, Kefka. You are terrorists. Sorry, but, that's what you are. [ February 28, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Art ]

Kefka · February 28, 2002

"Kefka, every country in the WORLD was started out in a non-peaceful means. EVERY SINGLE country in the history of the world has carved it's borders through war and blood and sacrifice. Yet, we live in peace with Japan and Gemany. England lives peacefully with the U.S. which was started by non-peaceful means. You see, the war against the Israeli state has gone on for years. And no matter how large the threat against it by the number of Arab nations involved, Israel defeated your brothers and earned the right to exist. Sadat and Begin, Israel and Egypt, have long since come to a peaceful accord. Saudi Arabia recognizes Israel's right to exist. Peace is in the hands of the defeated. I'd take it before you have to lose yet more territory to help Israel defend itself further." Go tell that to the old women whos homes have been bulldozed, property destroyed, children killed, and dignity humilated. Are these not "terrorist" actions? Oh yeah.. they're "defending" themselves by killing children and destroying homes. You don't seem to have a heart, do you. "You are incorrect, Kefka. Again, the British are an invading society and THEY invaded the country of America and colonized it. America, upon gaining freedom through violence against England went to war with the Indians and expanded after purchasing the territory legally from the French. The Indians may not have recognized the laws of the civilized world, but, you are strictly incorrect about this and I think that's fully demonstrated." Yes there after fighting against (Not so) Great Britain, you killed the "uncivilized" Indians. Now Hundreds of years later they're remembered them at the Olympic Games. How nice. "Arafat even is our puppet leader now, is he? You are a riot. As Clinton discovered -- and this is historically true -- at the end of his Presidency, Arafat is a criminal and a brutal dictator. Arafat called Clinton and told him, "You are a great man." Clinton responded, "No. I'm a failure. And you made me one." Clinton then told Powell that Arafat could not be trusted or believed. As we know, this is true and the arms shipments we've taken have demonstrated that as clearly as the terror against Israelis that Arafat refuses to stop, though he has the power to do so. No, Kefka, Arafat is not our puppet. It's a shame he is not. There'd be peace if he was." Terror? You call defending your home terrorism? Go ahead and call the bombings inside Israeli territory terrorism (which the Israelis also did during the 1940s during British Mandate). But when the Israeli's enter into Palestinian territory, how do you call that terrorism? Two faces of Israel and the US. "Terrorism is the unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons. We're not calling you terrorists, Kefka. You are terrorists. " Call me what you want, but the truth is you won't ever understand the situation, b/c you've never witnessed it. You side w/ the agressors so you are part of the problem. Simple as that. Like I said when the thread started, don't expect the Muslims to be overjoyed w/ the US. "You see, in Palestine, where Arafat, in public at least, calls for hostilities to end, and they do not, those that commit those crimes are terrorists because they are violating the rules of the state and the laws of the area to fulfill their political or religious designs." Your full of it. They are fighting to get their homes back. What part of that don't you understand? But in doing so they are labeled terrorists. The state of Israel as no right to exist. Like I said its even against orthodox Judaism. But you wouldn't know that Art. "I know, those Muslims in India who burned the train of Hindus were really not terrorists but rather freedom fighters or something, right? I know the people who killed Danny Pearl weren't terrorists? What is, is, Kefka. You are terrorists. Sorry, but, that's what you are." I know, those Israelis who shot children walking to school are not terrorists but rather defending their state, right? or boys playing soccer a mile away, or pregnant women with their husbands rushing to the hospital, or boys in their father's arms kneeled on the ground, or 27 Muslims in a Masjid praying (then later the Jew who shot them in the back is called a hero and his grave made into a national monument)....

Art · February 28, 2002

Let's reply to both threads at once, shall we? Art how nice of you to step in for Kilmer17, you must have a strong brotherhood. "First you don't know arabic. Second you must be reading english translations of the meaning of the Qur'an." Kefka, I don't have to know Arabic. Is the word infidel contained within the original text of God? Is war defined and against whom is it defined? The Koran is a very clear book. It calls for very specific things. I've read translations of several passages of the Koran. There's no disputing what the text calls for and against whom the call is made. Are you disputing that? If so, put your big brain out there. And, after doing that, tell me how the killing of Daniel Pearl is a thing of justice. Or the WTC attacks. Or the constant Muslim violence committed against anyone not Muslim? Did you know in Pakistan the law is that a Muslim who kills a Muslim is himself killed, but a Muslim who kills a non-Muslim is not subject to the death penalty. Afterall, it's just an infidel afterall. "Third your interpreting it the way you want. All of which is wrong. This what happened to the bible, the original text was destroyed, which led to the corruption of the religion. But Qur'an is in its original text from God, in arabic." Kefka, you are a fruit cake. The Koran isn't the original text from God. God didn't speak it and it was written. The prophet Mohammed was illiterate himself, but he was a great orator. The Koran is simply what people wrote that he said and like other religions I question the intelligence of people so easily caught up by an illiterate huckster and con-artest, but, I digress. Mohammed was not God. His words fill the Koran, not God's words. You can say Mohammed was God's conduit, but, that doesn't change the fact that the Koran is not direct from God. It's as written down by those listening to the prophet Mohammed since he wasn't even sharp enough to write it down himself. Again though, I don't believe in any book written by man as a fair representation of God. I'll make as little fun of you as I do my Mormon friends when they talk about the modern prophet that founded their religion. I'll just say, you see far less violence by the Mormons, so, perhaps their prophet wasn't as crazy. Who knows. "After you learn arabic in its fasih from you can come and debate w/ me about my religion." You don't want to debate, Kefka. You and your brothers are ignorant wretches and you enjoy that status. I enjoy you being one as well. We've no difficulty there. "Art explain to me how England had control of that portion of land in Palestine please. Lets go back a little in history. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> " Part of the English Empire was land they controlled in the Middle East. Part of that land was carved out for the state of Israel. You understand, don't you, that, if England didn't have the authority to do what they did they couldn't done it. It's not like I was sitting in my room and suddenly declared the state of Israel. The country in possession of the area carved out that which it desired. That country left the region and others within tried to expel that country. They've failed. Egypt, though, learned the folly and made peace in 1977. The rest of the area would be smart to follow suit. "And so long as the US continues to fund Israel (ie, money, weapons, UN veto power). The US is part of the problem." The U.S. funds Egypt too. It funds the Palestinians. It funded the Taliban. The U.S. funds everyone everywhere. It's like Enron giving campaign contributions to both parties. The U.S. belief that innocent Jewish people in Israel shouldn't be killed by violent Muslim fruitcakes is not part of the problem. The whole of the problem is the violent Muslim and Arab nuts who don't realize THEY are the problem. If Israel so desired, it could lay waste and take over the entire Middle East. We don't allow it to do so. For that, you should be thankful. But, make no mistake. Israel's defensive nature is encouraged by the U.S. because the problem lies with the insanity of too many others. "Since you believe in the survival of the fittest, let the Muslims "carve" out some land in the US and than give it to Israel." Again, if Muslims were strong enough, they'd actually not be third world, 15th century living cretins that they are. So, I'm dubious that the Muslims could be successful in carving out any land in the U.S. for Israelis. Of course, we in the U.S. allow Israeli citizens to travel here freely as we encourage openness and an inclusive society. I know your Muslim brothers don't understand such decadence, but, again, quit eating those figs for a couple of weeks, invent something and improve your situation, and who knows, perhaps you won't have to resort to the land promised you by an illiterate con man named Mohammed and you can actually improve the land you do control without killing everyone who doesn't happen to believe the same thing you do. How'd that be?

Kefka · February 28, 2002

Art when you have no clue about the situation, when all you do is watch the Western Media that covers the truth, please don't post trying to teach me whats right and whats wrong. The state of Israel is in fact in itself a crime. Period.

Kilmer17 · February 28, 2002

There's a shock. When faced with facts and truths, the terrorist hides behind a propoganda slogan.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

"Kefka, I don't have to know Arabic. Is the word infidel contained within the original text of God? Is war defined and against whom is it defined? The Koran is a very clear book. It calls for very specific things. I've read translations of several passages of the Koran. There's no disputing what the text calls for and against whom the call is made. Are you disputing that? If so, put your big brain out there. And, after doing that, tell me how the killing of Daniel Pearl is a thing of justice. Or the WTC attacks. Or the constant Muslim violence committed against anyone not Muslim? Did you know in Pakistan the law is that a Muslim who kills a Muslim is himself killed, but a Muslim who kills a non-Muslim is not subject to the death penalty. Afterall, it's just an infidel afterall." You prove your arrogance and ignorance. You must, its is a must to know the Arabic language in its Fasih( original form ) to understand what is intended by the verse. You must read Tafsir, which explains when the verse was revealed, during what situation and what is meant by it. Anyone can interpret the Qur'an by just reading it translation, same goes for the Bible. There is no way you can substitute one word from the English Language for an arabic word. Doesn't work like that. When did I justify the killing of Daniel Pearl, did I type that in? I must be losing my memory. WTC? no proof it was Muslims. When you have a socialist militaristic leader (ie Ataturk) what do you expect? If you had done your homework you would know in Islam if you kill another person w/out just cause the penalty is death no matter if the person is Jew/Christian/Muslim/Art's Religion .... "Kefka, you are a fruit cake. The Koran isn't the original text from God. God didn't speak it and it was written. The prophet Mohammed was illiterate himself, but he was a great orator. The Koran is simply what people wrote that he said and like other religions I question the intelligence of people so easily caught up by an illiterate huckster and con-artest, but, I digress. Mohammed was not God. His words fill the Koran, not God's words. You can say Mohammed was God's conduit, but, that doesn't change the fact that the Koran is not direct from God. It's as written down by those listening to the prophet Mohammed since he wasn't even sharp enough to write it down himself. Again though, I don't believe in any book written by man as a fair representation of God. I'll make as little fun of you as I do my Mormon friends when they talk about the modern prophet that founded their religion. I'll just say, you see far less violence by the Mormons, so, perhaps their prophet wasn't as crazy. Who knows." Again when you don't know what your talking about, don't try to teach me. The Qur'an is revelation from God onto Muhammad(S). Sometimes via Angel Gabriel, sometimes direct into his heart. Him being illiterate just proves that it is from God. He simply could not have written what is in the Qur'an on his own. Yes and Muhammad than recited what inspiration which was written down by his companions. You are the crazy one for not believing in God. You must have created the Heavens and the Earth yourself Art...right? "You don't want to debate, Kefka. You and your brothers are ignorant wretches and you enjoy that status. I enjoy you being one as well. We've no difficulty there." Don't put words in my mouth. You prove your ignorance my calling me a ignorant wretch. You don't know what in my heart to be telling me what I enjoy or not. Though I enjoy watching you prove your ignorance. "Part of the English Empire was land they controlled in the Middle East." Nice explanation lol. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> "The U.S. funds Egypt too. It funds the Palestinians. It funded the Taliban. The U.S. funds everyone everywhere. It's like Enron giving campaign contributions to both parties. The U.S. belief that innocent Jewish people in Israel shouldn't be killed by violent Muslim fruitcakes is not part of the problem. The whole of the problem is the violent Muslim and Arab nuts who don't realize THEY are the problem." The US funds the people who are against Islam. The US is part of the problem, you can't deny it. Its a fact. Your only fooling yourself. "If Israel so desired, it could lay waste and take over the entire Middle East. We don't allow it to do so. For that, you should be thankful. But, make no mistake. Israel's defensive nature is encouraged by the U.S. because the problem lies with the insanity of too many others." THe Muslims don't need the help of the US. I don't thank anyone but God or those who do good and prevent evil. "Again, if Muslims were strong enough, they'd actually not be third world, 15th century living cretins that they are. So, I'm dubious that the Muslims could be successful in carving out any land in the U.S. for Israelis. Of course, we in the U.S. allow Israeli citizens to travel here freely as we encourage openness and an inclusive society. I know your Muslim brothers don't understand such decadence, but, again, quit eating those figs for a couple of weeks, invent something and improve your situation, and who knows, perhaps you won't have to resort to the land promised you by an illiterate con man named Mohammed and you can actually improve the land you do control without killing everyone who doesn't happen to believe the same thing you do. How'd that be?" Again you prove that the US and the European nations are part of the problem. If you recall the Muslim empire was one empire. Now its all divided into countries. Divide and Conquer. Nationalism. At least those Muslims have the guts to fight, more than I can say for you.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

Kilmer17 either grow up or get a life.

Art · February 28, 2002

"Go tell that to the old women whos homes have been bulldozed, property destroyed, children killed, and dignity humilated. Are these not "terrorist" actions? Oh yeah.. they're "defending" themselves by killing children and destroying homes. You don't seem to have a heart, do you." Israel, after repeatedly being attacked through war and terrorism has rightfully expanded "dead" areas arount it's territory to improve lines of fire and make the approach more difficult. The old woman who's property was destroyed, children killed and dignity humiliated has the responsibility of teaching her children it is not something to be honored to kill yourself and innocents in Israel. The young woman who recently blew herself up so stupidly was probably one of these poor wronged people. She wrote a letter, then went to kill herself and some Israelis. The letter was read by a supremely proud father who was happy his daughter wanted to be a martyr. This is INSANITY that the Palestinian people have committed against the Israeli people. Israel does not expand itself. It flattens areas of danger. Today, in breaking a long held policy not to invade refugee camps due to the large number of casualties, the Israeli armed forces did just that. Why? Because in those camps was the straps the latest suicide bomber was wearing were made to hold her bomb. Israel responds and that is all it does. It does not initiate. After an attack, Israel responds. It should respond. It MUST respond. If one Israeli dies it must respond with furious anger and kill more. Eventually since more of the Palestinian people are dying than the Israelis, this will be a moot point, but, that won't be the fault of Israel. If those ignorant *******s would stop attacking innocent Israeli people shopping then the Israeli guns would cease. Don't get upset with Israel for responding to the provocations. Blame your brothers who teach there is honor to killing innocents. Afterall, they are just infidels and all. No biggie. And you question my heart? "Yes there after fighting against (Not so) Great Britain, you killed the "uncivilized" Indians. Now Hundreds of years later they're remembered them at the Olympic Games. How nice." England was the most powerful country in the world right up until WWII. A small bunch of rabble in the colonies threw them back. Indians honored themselves at the Olympic Games. It was nice, Kefka. "Terror? You call defending your home terrorism?" How is blowing yourself up in a crowded bus or shopping mall defending your home exactly? Wouldn't defending your home require you to actually be near your home, preventing someone from taking it from you? Israel was a very tiny nation and still, largely is. Yes, it has grown because ignorant Arab and Muslim states continued to stupidly attack it, lose and see the Israeli people expand the borders to defend itself against further attacks. Sorry, you lost the war. War is different than terror. War is sponsored by a state and whether you agree or not, it is different than the unlawful aggression committed by groups of people unhappy with the current situation. Arafat is the leader of these people and when they openly defy him -- though we know he lets them because he can stop what he wishes to stop -- they are no longer at war. They are terrorists. Just like like the peaceful Muslims that killed the hindus on the train. Just like the peaceful Muslims that killed those Christians in the Sudan. Just like those peaceful Muslims who killed Daniel Pearl. Just like those peaceful Muslims who slammed planes and killed innocents on Sept. 11. Those same acts, if sponsored by a state, would really not be terrorism to me, but rather, war. So, when Israel responds, and ONLY responds to the aggression against it, it's war not terrorism. When four Arab nations attacked Israel to kill it and were all defeated like the wicked animals they are, it was war. What is happening today is terrorism. What is, is. I can't change it. Neither can you. "Go ahead and call the bombings inside Israeli territory terrorism (which the Israelis also did during the 1940s during British Mandate). But when the Israeli's enter into Palestinian territory, how do you call that terrorism? Two faces of Israel and the US. " Israel enters Palestinian territory after a stupid brother of yours decides to kill an Israeli that is NOT in Palestinian territory. At no point does Israel expand into Palestinian territory until one of your terrorist brothers sneaks in to kill him some Jews and bang 90 virgins in Heaven. Or, whatever that illiterate con-artist named Mohammed might have said God said would be waiting. Even you must understand the distinction. Israel is purely a responsive state. It does not initiate aggression. If it did, this would all be over, because the entire region would be under the Israel name on a map. We won't let them do more than they are doing. Maybe we should. "Call me what you want, but the truth is you won't ever understand the situation, b/c you've never witnessed it. You side w/ the agressors so you are part of the problem. Simple as that. Like I said when the thread started, don't expect the Muslims to be overjoyed w/ the US." I do not side with the aggressors. I side with the those defending themselves. No matter how you spin it, all Israel does is in response to attacks made against it. You can't define that as aggression. As for Muslims being overjoyed with the U.S., I don't expect them to be. I never said I did. I don't expect a backward, brutal, repressive, ignorant, insane, violent batch of people to ever be happy with an open, inclusive, free, charitable, fair, prosperous batch of people. It's envy, Kefka. While your boys are still eating dates, we, in just over 200 years, essentially impose our beliefs of freedom, respect and openness on the rest of the world. No. I don't expect your brothers to be happy. You haven't evolved far enough for that. Maybe in a few hundred more years you'll get to the point the peaceful world lives in. That is if the book spoken by the illiterate con-artist allows you to go that far. "Your full of it. They are fighting to get their homes back. What part of that don't you understand? But in doing so they are labeled terrorists. The state of Israel as no right to exist. Like I said its even against orthodox Judaism. But you wouldn't know that Art." The terrorists killing innocent Israelis with no provocation are not defending their homes. They are attempting to eradicate Israel. You've said it here. Israel doesn't have a right to exist. If you can't even see that, you are too blind and violent, probably through the teachings of the Koran, to see clearly. Israel IS REAL and has a right to exist. When these wicked animals stop attacking her, she'll stop beating you back like the backward people you are. The leader of the Palestinian people has called for the violence to stop. Those breaking his request are committing acts of terrorism. All the while Israel sits within its borders wondering when the next backward Arab nation will attack it and force it to increase its borders further still. Oh well. To the victors go the spoils. And yet, Israel doesn't gloat. Israel says it will give some land back. It will pull back. It will help fund and create a Palestinian state. All it asks is to stop being attacked. Just stop attacking us and recognize our right, after 50 years -- longer than MOST of her neighbors have been led by a single government -- to survive. It's time to put down the guns. When your brothers do, they'll stop getting killed by a country that's asking you to stop and offering you the path to that end. "I know, those Israelis who shot children walking to school are not terrorists but rather defending their state, right? or boys playing soccer a mile away, or pregnant women with their husbands rushing to the hospital, or boys in their father's arms kneeled on the ground, or 27 Muslims in a Masjid praying (then later the Jew who shot them in the back is called a hero and his grave made into a national monument." In war, innocents die. We have killed innocents in our war in Afghanistan. It is a shame. But, when a country rightfully reacts to continued attacks and innocents die, it's tragic. It's horrible. Israel agrees it is not right and wishes it to end. All that has to happen is you have to stop killing her people. You just have to back away and stop making her respond. Why should the Jews turn the other cheek when you believe in an eye for and eye? When your brothers stop calling for the eradication of a country and a people, Israel, the rightful and fair nation, will stop going to war against your brothers. But, you have to stop since all Israel is doing is reacting. Of course, Kefka, your response is telling. I'm asking you about Muslim violence throughout the world. The fundamental inability for Muslims to live in peace with anyone who is not Muslim everywhere a Muslim lives is what I asked about. You responded with Israel. As if somehow Israel responding to attacks is what causes Muslims in India to burn Hindus or kidnap Pearl or fly planes into American buildings. You don't even see how lost you really are. [ February 28, 2002, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Art ]

Art · February 28, 2002

"You prove your arrogance and ignorance. You must, its is a must to know the Arabic language in its Fasih( original form ) to understand what is intended by the verse." No, Kefka, I don't have to know the Arabic language in original form to follow the meaning of the Koran. Really. I don't. People that DO know the Arabic language in original form have been so kind as to provide the meaning of the book of fiction in an English form. If you speak Arabic you don't have to know English to understand the Lord of the Rings if someone that does know Arabic puts it into words you grasp. Again, I'll ask the simple questions. What is an infidel. You tell me. Educate me. Is that word in the Koran as I'd understand that word? What are the three worlds of Islam? Tell me what they are. These are central tenants. Describe to me what the ultimate Muslim land contains of in geographical terms. Again, I don't have to know Arabic to know that someone who does is fine. Several translations are acceptable and all agree the information I'm referencing agree. Even you agree. But, go ahead and explain it to me in ways those people failed to. You can be the great educator. You don't want this task though, and we both know it, because, like the Old Testament, the Koran is a joke and wholly unsupported and without meaning in a modern world. "You must read Tafsir, which explains when the verse was revealed, during what situation and what is meant by it. Anyone can interpret the Qur'an by just reading it translation, same goes for the Bible. There is no way you can substitute one word from the English Language for an arabic word. Doesn't work like that." So, I have to read Tafsir -- which there are differences as well -- to understand the Koran? Why would I need to do that? Why wouldn't I just read the direct word of God as you've described is possessed in the Koran? The Holy Bible, translated into Arabic by a person understanding the languages would convey the meaning the Bible intends to convey. Just as does the Koran. "When did I justify the killing of Daniel Pearl, did I type that in? I must be losing my memory." You justified it when you asked about Israel killing innocents. You excused it. "WTC? no proof it was Muslims." You are a loon. Bin Ladin SAID he did it and he's a Muslim. More than once he's said it. No proof it was Muslims? I guess it was coincidence the 19 people we know that did the deed had the Koran found in their gear. This is absolutely the most ignorant thing you've said. If you do not recognize this very evident truth, you are absolutely not worth having a conversation with and I'm very sorry to have even started one with you. I do not have time for this stupidity Kefka. The next words out of your mouth will be, "Ok, my bad, we do know Muslims did it," and after that we'll continue. On this I'm serious. We'll go no further and you'll speak no more on this topic until we've addressed those responsible for the WTC attacks. If you have reason to suggest it wasn't Bin Ladin and his group, you can also offer that. Otherwise, you aren't putting this cr@p out without more info. We're not Al Jazerra here. We demand you actually have a clue. "When you have a socialist militaristic leader (ie Ataturk) what do you expect? If you had done your homework you would know in Islam if you kill another person w/out just cause the penalty is death no matter if the person is Jew/Christian/Muslim/Art's Religion ...." How can I do my homework on Islamic religion, Kefka" You've told me here I have to speak Arabic in the original form to even have a chance. So, really, how am I to keep up? "Again when you don't know what your talking about, don't try to teach me. The Qur'an is revelation from God onto Muhammad(S)." Again, God didn't speak. Muhammad did. You can't deny that fact. No one claims it was God who spoke. It was the prophet Muhammad speaking on God's behalf as his oracle. So, again, you don't know what you are talking about. Trust me, the day God shows up and talks to us, we'll all know about it. But, as long as he continues to send false prophets, we'll all just giggle when you tell us something is the book of God when it was spoken by an illiterate con-artist named John Smith, er Muhammad. "Sometimes via Angel Gabriel, sometimes direct into his heart. Him being illiterate just proves that it is from God. He simply could not have written what is in the Qur'an on his own." That's good, because he didn't write it on his own. People listening to him wrote it down as he was speaking it. And, trust me on this Kefka, there is no God as described by your illiterate prophet. Really, God doesn't have that large a sense of humor to have his chosen people eating dates centuries after the rest of the world has landed on the moon. He's just not that funny. "Yes and Muhammad than recited what inspiration which was written down by his companions. You are the crazy one for not believing in God. You must have created the Heavens and the Earth yourself Art...right?" I believe in a power that created the universe as we know it. I've stated that repeatedly. I believe in science and I understand science has a role in many things, but, at the beginning there wasn't science. Something created. There has to be something that is responsible for the FIRST thing. I'm just telling you, God is not described by Mormons or Jews or Catholics or in Christ or by a guy wearing a makeshift turbin around his head in Cuba. God created and man was left to discover. To grow. To learn. And man has. Some better than your Muslim brothers, but, hey, not everyone can be so bright. Anyway, what God created he has left for man to understand. Man has learned much of the way of the world and has much more to go. When man reaches a level of understanding this creator is comfortable with, he may just reveal himself. But, he didn't do it to an illiterate named Mohammad. His son wasn't Jesus. These are historical figures who may have strongly believed. But, God revealed a world to man, man is only beginning to grasp. You're crazy to think God appeared and left his wisdom with your violent insane brothers. Hell, if we're going to believe in God, we're at least not going to believe in the God as practiced by your backwards society. "Don't put words in my mouth. You prove your ignorance my calling me a ignorant wretch. You don't know what in my heart to be telling me what I enjoy or not. Though I enjoy watching you prove your ignorance." I'm sure you enjoy watching what your mind can't comprehend, so therefore you shun it. This is typical of your close-minded beliefs and your backwards ways. Hell, you said in this very thread there's NO proof Muslims were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. We need not go any further in comparing our ignorance. "The US funds the people who are against Islam. The US is part of the problem, you can't deny it. Its a fact. Your only fooling yourself." It is not a fact. The only people against Islam are Muslims who continue to create desperation, death and strife wherever they congregate. If your brothers would simply practice a belief that allows other people to also exist, they'd be much better off and until they do so, you are only fooling yourself. "THe Muslims don't need the help of the US. I don't thank anyone but God or those who do good and prevent evil." The Muslims needed our help in Kuwait and Saudi Arabia to prevent being killed by Iraq. The muslims in Afghanistan needed help being removed from the repression of the Taliban. No, muslims probably need more help than anyone. They're just to ignorant to accept it. But, hey, you are thoroughly making me understand the crusades. "Again you prove that the US and the European nations are part of the problem. If you recall the Muslim empire was one empire. Now its all divided into countries. Divide and Conquer. Nationalism. At least those Muslims have the guts to fight, more than I can say for you." At one point the Muslim Empire was one Empire and THAT's the root of the problem with Muslims. They think it's their right to have it the same way. Yet, they aren't even strong enough to lead in Saudi Arabia or Indonesia or Pakistan or anywhere they reside because their beliefs are so abhorrant to so many, such governments can not survive. Again, the U.S. has never been an Empire. European nations have been. In 1910 25 percent of the land mass of this planet was under English control. Empires come and go. Like the Muslim Empire of long ago. The difference is, the English, Greeks, Romans, French and Germans have found a way to strive and succeed after their empire was beaten back. Muslims just pout and wonder what happened to those great Muslim lands and even when they remain in those lands, they lack the strength to rise up and control for themselves, allowing the world to be included in their success. Such a sad life you lead. But, no matter. The next words out of your mouth are about the WTC attacks and who was responsible. That's all we're talking about until we've exhausted that issue. This is an administrative order from this admin to you. You will back that statement up. You will not make such an idol idiotic statement then run away. Oh, but I forget. I'm too afraid to fight.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

Israel is the agressor by being in the land of the Muslims. You don't understand do you. Do I have to spell it out for you? The Muslims are at WAR ... W A R ... with those who are in their homeland. Call them what you want but the state of Israel is in itself a crime. "Israel, after repeatedly being attacked through war and terrorism has rightfully expanded "dead" areas arount it's territory to improve lines of fire and make the approach more difficult." Where are you getting your news from??? Dear God, you don't know do you, you are seriously blind about whats going on. "Dead" areas after its been masacared with. You think Israel would be stupid enough to fully declare war? It would be ovious than and than the real fight would begin. Rather Israel, poor Israeli is hiding behind the US. "The old woman who's property was destroyed, children killed and dignity humiliated has the responsibility of teaching her children it is not something to be honored to kill yourself and innocents in Israel. The young woman who recently blew herself up so stupidly was probably one of these poor wronged people. She wrote a letter, then went to kill herself and some Israelis. The letter was read by a supremely proud father who was happy his daughter wanted to be a martyr." Who are you to say this? When you don't even believe in God? "This is INSANITY that the Palestinian people have committed against the Israeli people." This is the Palestinian people fighting for their lives, homes, and to get their own state. "Israel does not expand itself." A flat out lie. "It flattens areas of danger." Palestinian land. "Today, in breaking a long held policy not to invade refugee camps due to the large number of casualties, the Israeli armed forces did just that. Why? Because in those camps was the straps the latest suicide bomber was wearing were made to hold her bomb. Israel responds and that is all it does." And you wouldn't fight back? You would sit on you *** and accept the agression? What do you expect the Palestinian people to do when their houses have been bulldozed. I thought you had some moral judgement Art. "It does not initiate." Yeah tell that to the 80 year old Palestinian who lost his home. "After an attack, Israel responds. It should respond." You mean after Palestinian people respond to Israeli attacks, Israelis get pissed and go kill some Palestinian children. "It MUST respond. If one Israeli dies it must respond with furious anger and kill more." You just prove you are an arrogant racist. "Eventually since more of the Palestinian people are dying than the Israelis..." Yet you still fail to see who is the agressor. "...this will be a moot point, but, that won't be the fault of Israel. If those ignorant *******s would stop attacking innocent Israeli people shopping then the Israeli guns would cease." If Israeli would admit that the land doesn't belong to them the fighting will cease. " Don't get upset with Israel for responding to the provocations. Blame your brothers who teach there is honor to killing innocents." THe Palestinian Muslims are just defending themselves and their homes... but you call that terrorism. "Afterall, they are just infidels and all. No biggie. And you question my heart?" You fail to realize that under Muslim rule jewish people and muslims lived under peace and justice. But after WWI/WWII is when you the European nations caused a lot of mischief. "How is blowing yourself up in a crowded bus or shopping mall defending your home exactly?" THe Palestinians are only doing what the Jews were doing during British Mandate. But hey... Jews can never be terrorists right? "Wouldn't defending your home require you to actually be near your home, preventing someone from taking it from you?" Hmmmm lets see... Palestinians living peacefully in their land. Palestinians no longer living peacefully in their land. Duh... " Israel was a very tiny nation and still, largely is. Yes, it has grown because ignorant Arab and Muslim states continued to stupidly attack it, lose and see the Israeli people expand the borders to defend itself against further attacks." No your puppet leaders attacked them. Not the Muslims, b/c if the Muslim attack there will exist not a Israeli state. " Sorry, you lost the war. War is different than terror." What an idiotic statement... when there is no Muslim state what do you expect the Muslims to do? Follow their corrupt leaders into oblivion? All your saying is War is sponsored by a "state", terrorism is sponsored by a "group". lol " Arafat is the leader of these people" Arafat is definately not the leader of the Muslims. Arafat is too stupid to be a leader though the US only has dialouge w/ him. "and when they openly defy him -- though we know he lets them because he can stop what he wishes to stop" like I said he is not the leader of the Muslims. They could care less about him. -- they are no longer at war. They are terrorists. Just like like the peaceful Muslims that killed the hindus on the train. Just like the peaceful Muslims that killed those Christians in the Sudan. Just like those peaceful Muslims who killed Daniel Pearl. Just like those peaceful Muslims who slammed planes and killed innocents on Sept. 11. Those same acts, if sponsored by a state, would really not be terrorism to me, but rather, war. So, when Israel responds, and ONLY responds to the aggression against it, it's war not terrorism. When four Arab nations attacked Israel to kill it and were all defeated like the wicked animals they are, it was war. What is happening today is terrorism. What is, is. I can't change it. Neither can you." Sorry Art but that is the stupidist justification you can give for being ok for Israel to attack but not for the Palestinians. They have to be sponsored by a "state" not by a "group". Learn to write. "I do not side with the aggressors. I side with the those defending themselves. No matter how you spin it, all Israel does is in response to attacks made against it. You can't define that as aggression. As for Muslims being overjoyed with the U.S., I don't expect them to be. I never said I did. I don't expect a backward, brutal, repressive, ignorant, insane, violent batch of people to ever be happy with an open, inclusive, free, charitable, fair, prosperous batch of people. It's envy, Kefka. While your boys are still eating dates, we, in just over 200 years, essentially impose our beliefs of freedom, respect and openness on the rest of the world. No. I don't expect your brothers to be happy. You haven't evolved far enough for that. Maybe in a few hundred more years you'll get to the point the peaceful world lives in. That is if the book spoken by the illiterate con-artist allows you to go that far." You side with the agressors b/c the US is built upon the act of agressors. Period. If you had studies Islam at all you would see you there is more freedom to do as you please as long as its within the law, shariah. Go read a book. "The terrorists killing innocent Israelis with no provocation are not defending their homes. They are attempting to eradicate Israel. You've said it here. Israel doesn't have a right to exist. If you can't even see that, you are too blind and violent, probably through the teachings of the Koran, to see clearly. Israel IS REAL and has a right to exist. When these wicked animals stop attacking her, she'll stop beating you back like the backward people you are. The leader of the Palestinian people has called for the violence to stop. Those breaking his request are committing acts of terrorism. All the while Israel sits within its borders wondering when the next backward Arab nation will attack it and force it to increase its borders further still. Oh well. To the victors go the spoils. And yet, Israel doesn't gloat. Israel says it will give some land back. It will pull back. It will help fund and create a Palestinian state. All it asks is to stop being attacked. Just stop attacking us and recognize our right, after 50 years -- longer than MOST of her neighbors have been led by a single government -- to survive. It's time to put down the guns. When your brothers do, they'll stop getting killed by a country that's asking you to stop and offering you the path to that end." No provocation? How about have your homes destroyed? You simply aren't reading are you Art? Israel doesn't have a right to exist. Period. Wether you label it terrorism or war, Israeli has no right to be there harrassing the people of Palestine. "In war, innocents die. We have killed innocents in our war in Afghanistan. It is a shame. But, when a country rightfully reacts to continued attacks and innocents die, it's tragic. It's horrible. Israel agrees it is not right and wishes it to end. All that has to happen is you have to stop killing her people. You just have to back away and stop making her respond. Why should the Jews turn the other cheek when you believe in an eye for and eye? When your brothers stop calling for the eradication of a country and a people, Israel, the rightful and fair nation, will stop going to war against your brothers. But, you have to stop since all Israel is doing is reacting." Like the innocent dieing DAILY in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Bosnia, Sudan, Somalia. I can go on and on. THough you could care less, you side w/ the agressors. "Of course, Kefka, your response is telling. I'm asking you about Muslim violence throughout the world. The fundamental inability for Muslims to live in peace with anyone who is not Muslim everywhere a Muslim lives is what I asked about. You responded with Israel. As if somehow Israel responding to attacks is what causes Muslims in India to burn Hindus or kidnap Pearl or fly planes into American buildings. You don't even see how lost you really are." Again all you seem the the Media here which distorts or hinds the facts. Millions of people travel to the middle east and asia, why aren't millions of people dieing? huh? what? say again?

Kefka · February 28, 2002

Your ignorance of the situation says it all. When you learn to talk like a human being not like an arrogant jack *** will I come to your terms. There is NO PROOF. Videotape you say? Prove to me it wasn't doctored. Prove it right now. If you can, I'll shut up and leave. "Oh, but I forget. I'm too afraid to fight" Seems like it. Easy way for you to leave. Round 1 for Kefka. Woohoo. I'm off to do some work. [ February 28, 2002, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

The Grey Wackey · February 28, 2002

I know 5 muslims from other countries that i talk to occassionally since I worked with them and still see them around. A syrian, 2 kuwaites, 2 egyptions. I also know a Egyption Orthodox Christian. He actually rooms with one of the muslims. I knew them before 9/11 and still talk to them occassionally. Thus far, none has been harassed by any american. I have also talked to about 10 others, from arab-muslim and American muslim cultures. My wife, who is from a country that has a population of muslims greater than in the US but not a majority, has also contributed to my understanding of this group. She also has a American friend who converted to Islam from Christianity after marrying her husband who is from pakistan and now a US citizen. The next couple of paragraphs are my OPINIONS based on a limited sample through my conversation with them. It has no statistical significance in regards to scientific rigor nor pretends to be. This would be a preliminary step for a further research into the beliefs and opinions of these people. My methodology is discovering what they "really think", therefore when I am discussing different issues, I take more of a devils advicate position w/o revealling my opinions or thoughts (for example, some in the US would argue...). This is attempt to get them to truelly express their opinions and beliefs w/o worrying about me being overly critical. In a few cases this isn't necessarily based on the individuals need/desire to express their opinions unabashedly. Just remember this is based on anecdotal evidence that should not be treated like they were some sort of axioms. Here is a summary of the more common beliefs. 1) Israel should be driven into the sea. This is arab land and belongs to palestine. Driven into the seas is the most common expression (not an interpretation). 2) US government is controlled by Jews and permits Israel to act the way it does (circular reasoning in the sence Jews control US, US controls Israel) 3) Oil is the only reason US is interested in the middle east 4) 9/11 was actually the work of the Massod. 5) 4000 jews Left the WTC before the explosion, proving number 4. 6) The US doesn't understand the historical situation in the Middle east 7) The US doesn't understand the Koran. It is a book of peace. 8) The US policy caused the the WTC (remember at the same time many are denying that WTC was committed by any arabs...huh). 9) US government is evil. People are not (lists an encyclopedia of historic occurrences that are interpreted as evil). 10) The US is killing large number of Afghanistan civilians (ranges from 500 to 6000. I find # virtually impossible to determine and wonder how it is derived) 11) US is responsible for 5000 child deaths a month in Iraq (Reason mag articles calls those inflated numbers in question). I have a notebook of common beliefs that # around 20. I am not at home right now so their are 9 more I'll provide later. Actually, the more I've talked with the muslims the more I'm getting better at asking certain questions. I am glad kefka is presenting this beliefs/opinions in this forum (You can see he echos some of them). Unfortunately, they are not all that unusual or radical among the arab world in my initial exposure to them. It is too bad the most americans are not aware of these opinions because i guarantee that would change some of our immigration and foreign policy in regard to muslims in our country and abroad. I have a relative who in a leadership capacity in the Senate (50/50 chance - he is either the majorit/minority leader). I am compiling my information so that I can present it to him so he can view some of the different beliefs in the Arab/muslim and American/muslim communitees (I have no other access than that I am related to him). I kind of also with this would have been left in the main lobby so others can see what I, unfortunately, already know. Next post, I'll talk about what muslims believe in regard to the koran or quran (gotta go). Art, your post is not far off from what the muslims have told me and what i have read (I'm about half way through the English translation of the koran). I think they think I can be converted...hehe

Terry · February 28, 2002

"The U.S., you may not know, is the country that overthrew England to gain independence. It is hardly the child of England." I don't know. The American struggle for independence could arguably be called an English civil war. It's causes and effects are little different than that which started the English cicil war of 1642 - namely taxation without representation. The principles involved when the colonists were defining personal and civil liberties were the direct descendents of English political thinkers, such as the Levellers and John Locke. America was evolving separately from England, but it is not incorrect to say that the colonies were a "child of England". "The British are an invading society" That's debatable. From the perspective of brute conquest by force of arms, that was rarely the case at all. Often, as in India, mercantile interest led to official bureaucratic oversite, resulting in political hegemony. But more often than not it was economic competition with other European powers that won England her colonies. A sound drubbing of Spain might result in all Spanish Hispaniola posessions falling into her lap. Perhaps it might be more appropriate to say that HUMANS are an aggressive and invasive species. After all, England herself was one invasion after another: . Iron age Celts push out an older group of Britons. . Scotti from Ireland invade what we now call Scotland and carve Dalriada from the Pictlands. . Roman legions conquer most of Britain up to Hadrians wall. . After the Romans leave, Angles, Saxons, Frissians, Jutes, and proto-Vikings invade and push the Celts to the periphery of the Isles. . Vikings invade England, conquer most of the mainland except for the saxon kingdom of Wessex, invade eastern Ireland and build the city of Dublin, and take all the outer isles of Scotland . The Vikings are finally either driven out or assimilated by the Saxons, who unite the country, only to face an invasion and subjugation from 3rd generation Vikings coming from Normandy under William, after beating back a Danish invasion. So maybe the later British were merely having their innings. [ February 28, 2002, 08:19 PM: Message edited by: Terry ]

Kefka · February 28, 2002

<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/rant/truthaboutpalestine/TheHistoryofPalestine.html" target="_blank">Truth about Palestine</a>

Art · February 28, 2002

Your ignorance of the situation says it all. When you learn to talk like a human being not like an arrogant jack *** will I come to your terms. No, Kefka, you will come to my terms now. You will not say there's no proof Muslims conducted the attacks on the WTC without basis. You're done talking until that has been talked. When your learn to speak without childish, inane idiocy I will let you continue your propoganda. But, until then, you will begin backing your stupidity because we're going to focus your efforts now and direct your energy to backing up this very stupid claim you've made. Or, you'll cease to exist. I don't have time to debate wretched children too racist and delusional. So, you'll get to prove you aren't before we continue. "There is NO PROOF. Videotape you say? Prove to me it wasn't doctored. Prove it right now. If you can, I'll shut up and leave." Kefka, I don't want you to leave. I want you to grow, learn, expand your beliefs and attempt to enjoy some moderate capability of understanding which is so much a part of this society. I don't have to PROVE to you the videotape wasn't doctored. Do you not know why? Because AFTER the video tape in which Bin Laden admits his crime, he released a tape of his own through Al Jazerra that was stolen by CNN and played for the world in which he CONFIRMS it. Further, we KNOW the identities of those that committed the crime. Even with no ties to Bin Laden we know they were Muslims from the information we found. For you to deny this proven and known and admitted fact shows such an audacious nescience you are unworthy of further communication. So you see, you get to PROVE to me that both Bin Laden tapes were doctored and suggest the identities of those that committed the crimes is somehow fradulent. I realize you are comfortable living in a fantasy world, but, I'm not, so, you get to be rational or you get to be silenced. Your call. ----"Oh, but I forget. I'm too afraid to fight" Seems like it. Easy way for you to leave. My boy, you have my home address. Give me a call if you can't find the street and I'll come pick you up. You spew the type of ignorance that is too common among your brothers. You are a sad and lost wretch.

Art · February 28, 2002

"Israel is the agressor by being in the land of the Muslims. You don't understand do you. Do I have to spell it out for you? The Muslims are at WAR ... W A R ... with those who are in their homeland. Call them what you want but the state of Israel is in itself a crime. " Kefka, to be honest, you must understand that it takes more than 10 guys sitting around in towels to declare WAR against a country. It takes a nation to declare war. What has happened over the history of Israel's existence since the English created the area the Jews would occupy has consisted both of state sponsored war and militant group terrorism. You can't be so daft as to not know the difference. The land Israel now resides on is not much different than the land that was part of the Kingdom of Israel in the centuries Before Christ. When the English carved out a portion of land for them in this area and then left the area, the Israeli people got to fight for themselves for the right to exist. And at every turn they've beaten back your date eating brothers no matter war or terrorism. And the whole of the time they've remained the defensive, responsive nation. They respond to aggression. Israel IS REAL and has a right to exist. Your inability to see this demonstrates your racist beliefs against the Jewish people and the faith. But, you're a Muslim and Jews are infidels so, by your nature as a non-peaceful people, you must be fanatical. You know what strikes me as odd is that there is not a place in the world where Muslims live where there is peace except the United States. Kind of funny how that works out. "Where are you getting your news from??? Dear God, you don't know do you, you are seriously blind about whats going on." Kefka, I get my news from history. Israel has repeatedly been attacked and Israel has repeated responded to attacks. Since the terrorism campaign has gone on, Israel has not initiated attacks against the Palestinians. They respond to each affront against their right to exist. As they should, must and rightfully persist in so doing. You can not deny that Israel only enters and kills after they are attacked. It's historically factual and there's sadly nothing you can say against it except, "They have no right to be there, therefore their entire existance is an intrusion and aggression." That is so stupid on the face of it it's laughable. ""Dead" areas after its been masacared with. You think Israel would be stupid enough to fully declare war? It would be ovious than and than the real fight would begin. Rather Israel, poor Israeli is hiding behind the US." Israel would devestate the entire Middle East if not cuffed by the U.S. and our sponsorship of their right to exist. I've often felt the best thing that could happen to the Middle East is a good Arab cleansing by the Jews because the Jews would make peace and accomodate the survivors while eradicating those that would seek to destroy it. But, we won't allow it. It's a shame. "Who are you to say this? When you don't even believe in God?" I do not have to believe in God to tell you what is insane. You may well be so you might not recognize it. "This is the Palestinian people fighting for their lives, homes, and to get their own state." Horsesh!t. This is the Palestinian people dressing themselves in bombs, walking into Israeli territory and killing innocents. They don't have the ability or willingness to fight for a state of their own. They just prattle on that Israel doesn't have a right to exist and sadly they find support in people such as yourself. Again, you don't defend your home by killing civilians. You defend your home by creating an army and dispatching an aggressor. That's how you do it. ""Israel does not expand itself." A flat out lie." On your part, yes. Israel has never expanded itself without aggression on the part of the Arab and Muslim world. That's historically accurate and you, sadly, have no point to the contrary. Every time Israel is attacked, it attacks back and adds a bit of a buffer against future attack. Keep it up and they'll have the whole of the Middle East. ""It flattens areas of danger." Palestinian land." No. Land where attacks against her people are carried out and therefore, a moat around the castle that is utilized to prevent such aggression. Why do you hate Jews so much? "And you wouldn't fight back? You would sit on you *** and accept the agression? What do you expect the Palestinian people to do when their houses have been bulldozed. I thought you had some moral judgement Art." What I expect of the Palestinian people is very simple. Their leader, Arafat, states in English in public something different than he states in Arabic in public, but, someone needs to listen to his English words and heed his calls for peace. Israel never leaves her land until she's attacked. That's historically accurate and is factual. The Palestinian people wouldn't have their homes bulldozed if they'd simply stop killing innocent Israelis simply for LIVING. This racist aggression against Jews is shocking and the whole of the world hates what the Muslims do wherever they are. ""It does not initiate." Yeah tell that to the 80 year old Palestinian who lost his home." Tell that to the 21 people who died in an Israeli mall the day before forcing Israel to respond. Sadly, Israel had to finally put Arafat under house arrest and hold him there under Tank barrel point to make him finally turn over Palestinians who killed a minister in Israel two years ago. These barbaric, wicked animals should be extinguished. Perhaps if Israel would adopt the same public stance you state, turning your words, to say, "The Arab world has no right to exist," we might finally end this whole thing. But, alas, no one but a violent Muslim, taught so by his book that preaches war and violence and killing for 90 virgins (God is great, and 90 virgins is a good number) thinks an entire people don't have a right to survive. "You mean after Palestinian people respond to Israeli attacks, Israelis get pissed and go kill some Palestinian children." No, that's not what I meant. What I meant was after a terrorist kills or attempts to kill an innocent Israeli on Israeli territory, Israel responds. And Israel has repeatedly said, if the violence ends, they'll stop responding. ""It MUST respond. If one Israeli dies it must respond with furious anger and kill more." You just prove you are an arrogant racist." I'm no racist, though you are making me understand the merits of the crusades. You, however, are clearly a racist. Talking as you have here that Jews should be eradicated and are criminals simply for LIVING is racist. Stating your wretched belief that Muslims are not responsible for the WTC attacks despite they themselves taking credit for it, is racist arrogance. But, what else do you know? Between eating your dates and reading your book as orated by your illiterate con-artist, you don't have time for reason. Oh, and isn't it funny that in order for me to understand the Koran I must first be able to read original Arabic when the guy who dictated the Koran couldn't even do that? Talk about a double standard eh? ""Eventually since more of the Palestinian people are dying than the Israelis..." Yet you still fail to see who is the agressor." I see the aggressor. I see how Israel retaliates every time a terrorist from Palestine attacks it. You must see that as well. Please do not allow your racism to blind you so. "If Israeli would admit that the land doesn't belong to them the fighting will cease." The land does belong to them. When the Palestinian people realized they are a conquered, defeated group lacking the intelligence or support to fight, they might be allowed to live under their own rule if they can demonstrate a capacity to do so peacefully. But, again, wherever there are Muslims there is violence and death so that is not a promising thought. "THe Palestinian Muslims are just defending themselves and their homes... but you call that terrorism." You can't defend a home by walking into a public bus and detonating yourself, killing innocents. No Palestine terrorist has ever died at his front door. They all die in Israeli lands killing innocents. "You fail to realize that under Muslim rule jewish people and muslims lived under peace and justice. But after WWI/WWII is when you the European nations caused a lot of mischief." Wherever Muslims live there is violence and chaos and repression and death. You fail to realize that your people are a violent, arrogant, smelly bunch that doesn't realize there's more to life than killing infidels, dreaming about empires lost and eating dates. There really is. Israel will live in peace with you. Like Americans live in peace with Muslims here in the U.S. An open, fair, intelligent people can take on a backward bunch and be kind to them. We've shown that here and Israel has shown the capacity for equity with those that continue to attack it. "THe Palestinians are only doing what the Jews were doing during British Mandate. But hey... Jews can never be terrorists right?" Jews can be terrorists. In the 1930s when the British were encouraging their movement into the area and they were fighting for a right to live and exist and control their own destiny, they were very likely resorting to terrorist acts against the rulers of the area and other enemies. I do not doubt for a moment this was the case in the 1930s. But, the essential difference is Jewish terrorism in the 1930s was done in a coordinated effort to survive, grow, prosper, and exist. Palestinian terrorism in the present is done with the single minded purpose of eradicating Jews altogether. Personally, I'm glad the Jews won. A violent racist like yourself probably is not. But, now that the Jews have won, all the Palestinian people must do is say, "Hey, let's stop killing people and live our own lives." That's all they have to do. "Hmmmm lets see... Palestinians living peacefully in their land. Palestinians no longer living peacefully in their land. Duh..." Hmm, let's see, Palestinians living peacefully in their land. Puts on a bomb, walks into Israeli land, kills Israelis and himself. Then Israel goes back into Palestinian land and kills others like him. This is a cycle started by the Palestinians. Israel likely had the same cycle. Israel just had a more just cause than do the Palestinians, which is a large reason why they've won. "No your puppet leaders attacked them. Not the Muslims, b/c if the Muslim attack there will exist not a Israeli state." Yawn. If the Muslims had the coordination and intelligence to attack, they'd be beaten back like dogs, just as the Arab and Muslim neighbors that have continually ruled themselves have been for years. Egypt, BTW, was long under Soviet control. Hardly an American puppet government. But, I forget, for you violent, ignorant Muslims, America is the root of all evil, despite the fact that ENGLAND created the Jewish state and all America does is defend Israel's right to exist. Again, our hands are clean. Your hands are not. "What an idiotic statement... when there is no Muslim state what do you expect the Muslims to do?" Create a Muslim state. I know it's a shocking concept. A government derives it's power from the governed. If Muslims want control, do what they did in Iran and take control. No one would stop them as no one stopped Iran. We just stop sadastic racial cleansing which would follow the creation of too much Muslim control so it would go ultimately very badly for the Muslims. What I expect Muslims to do is fight for their right to lead themselves and quit worrying about the rights of others to exist. "Follow their corrupt leaders into oblivion? All your saying is War is sponsored by a "state", terrorism is sponsored by a "group". lol" That is the difference between war and terrorism Kefka. And as Muslim people are too weak and cowardly to actually control a state, they resort to pathetic terrorism to wreak their havoc. If they'd put their efforts into constructing a better world for themselves, they'd be better off. But, that's not a possibility I know. "Arafat is definately not the leader of the Muslims. Arafat is too stupid to be a leader though the US only has dialouge w/ him." Arafat is the leader of the people. Period. Sorry to disappoint you. "like I said he is not the leader of the Muslims. They could care less about him." I'm certain that's true. Muslims don't care about morality or law. They only care about killing infidels and restoring a lost empire. Good luck. "Sorry Art but that is the stupidist justification you can give for being ok for Israel to attack but not for the Palestinians. They have to be sponsored by a "state" not by a "group". Learn to write." Kefka, a state can sponsor war. A group resorts to terrorism because it can't control a state. This is a simple equation. You are a terrorist. Jewish people are warriors. What is, is. Saying a group of fanatics can sit together, eat dates, praise Allah and declare "war" is the most terribly ignorant thing I can imagine. Can you declare war on me before visiting me with the address provided? No. You can be a terrorist though. That's all you have the power to be. "You side with the agressors b/c the US is built upon the act of agressors. Period. If you had studies Islam at all you would see you there is more freedom to do as you please as long as its within the law, shariah. Go read a book." I can't study Islam. Neither I nor Mohammad the prophet can read Arabic so neither of us is qualified to talk about Islam. Obviously. These people are not governed by the shariah. They are citizens of a state and have a duty to live by the laws of the state. "No provocation? How about have your homes destroyed?" After you've killed innocent civilians, we take homes from you. That's the equation. If you can't figure it out, you might want to put 2+2 together. "You simply aren't reading are you Art? Israel doesn't have a right to exist. Period. Wether you label it terrorism or war, Israeli has no right to be there harrassing the people of Palestine." Israel isn't harrassing the people of Palestine. Israel is existing because it has a fundamental right to do so and the Palestinian people won't stop harrassing them. if they would, they'd be ok. "Like the innocent dieing DAILY in Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Bosnia, Sudan, Somalia. I can go on and on. THough you could care less, you side w/ the agressors." The innocent do die in Palestine. In response to what people in Palestine bring on to themselves, the Jews kill innocents in response. This is a sad byproduct of war. And this war for the Jews is created by the terrorism of your backward brothers. The aggressors are the Palestinian people who encourage this type of terroristic behavior. The Jewish people bravely fight against these attacks like warriors. Sorry. "Again all you seem the the Media here which distorts or hinds the facts. Millions of people travel to the middle east and asia, why aren't millions of people dieing? huh? what? say again?" Kefka, I'm not one to defend the American media, given the fact that it so clearly tilts to the left and has a tendency to allow personal liberal leanings to cloud reporting. But, you are absolutely crazy if you think OUR media distorts and hides the facts. This is so incredibly and blindingly foolish my boy. No media reports and uncovers the truth like the American press. And, Kefka, millions of people ARE dying in the Middle East. I can't believe you don't know that. Too many of those people are dying at the hands of your violent brothers.

Riggo-toni · February 28, 2002

I can't take this anymore, I have to jump in here. Art, you have actually in part accepted some of the Palestinian propaganda. The Brits did NOT approve of Jewish immigration into Palestine, and they sure as hell did not help Zionists uproot Arabs to create a Palestinian state. Fact 1: Britain was horrified at how a Zionist movement would affect its relations w/ the Arab world, and when Herzl established the Zionist conference in 1897, Britain actually offered them part of Uganda to settle as an independent country instead. Brits were under orders to shoot Jews trying to emigrate to Isreal all the way up to their withdrawal in 47, and British troops fought on the side of Arabs to expel the Israelites in the 48 war. Why would Jews be targeting British posts if the Brits were so aggressively engaged in getting them a piece of the pie?! Kefka, the article you presented very conveniently omits a number of facts which invalidate your claim that Israel is a crime: "While the Ottomans realized the danger of allowing Zionists to settle in Palestine and passed restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine in the wake of the establishment of the Zionist movement, Jews circumvented these restrictions by acquiring the protection of foreign consuls under the capitulations laws." Ottaman officals passed a few token laws to placate peasants, but the same ones passing these laws turned were actively engaged in selling the Jews their land. Jews who emigrated to Palestine did either one of two things: Most settled in areas where noone else was living (i.e. The area that became Tel Aviv), while others bought farmland from Turkish lords. Granted, in some cases after buying the land, they then fired/expelled the serfs that had been working on that land for the Turks. But the Jews did not take this land by force, they bought it. Not from Brits coerced by some Zionist conspiracy, but from Turks whose families had owned the land for generations. If I buy a farm and throw squatters off my land, that may not be fair in the eyes of some, but I have that right. In addition, numerous Palestinians migrated into Jewish settled areas for employment. When Balfour made his simulataneous declarations of a Jewish state and an independent Palestinian state, his idea was to give Jordan to the Palestinians, and Trans-Jordan to the Jews. I guess what he didn't expect was how many of your Muslim brothers would decide to move into Jewish towns when they realized the Jews were better employers than the Turks. In any case, Britain reneged on its pledges to both the Jews and the Palestinians, and offered only partition. The Israelis accepted what they could get, but the Arabs did not. Immediately following British withdrawal, they vowed to drive the Israelis into the sea. The spiritual leader of the Palestinians The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who by the way was Arafat's uncle, told the Palestinians to leave their homes because the Arab armies would eradicate the Zionists and leave them all of Palestine. Many fled, while others fought alongside Egyptians and Jordanians. Arab nations had no intentions of helping the Palestinians; rather they simply wanted control of more territory. Of course, the Israelis held their ground, and not surprisingly, felt they could not accept the risk of allowing masses of Arabs to slip back into the sliver of territory they still held onto. Egypt occupied Gaza, while Jordan occupied the West Bank. Again, the Israelis offered to accept these borders, while Arabs pledged their destruction. Since then, Israel has offered time and again to relinquish lands under its control in exchange for peace, but each overture has met with more violence. To even suggest, however, that Israel is incapable of defending itself without the US as its protector is patently false and flies in the face of all evidence. Israel lost its only ally (France) prior to the 7 day war, and still beat back all the Arab armies in a week, with no help from us. In 73, Nixon did consider helping the Israelis, that was until the CIA assured him that the Israelis would win within 3 weeks (actually, it only took 2). Israel is one of the most technically advanced highly educated nations in the world with a living standard equal to the EC. Kefka - Do you really believe that your native Afghanistan for example, with an illiteracy rate of over 80%, could simply wipe them out if it weren't for us? Or for that matter, that the other Arab states could. Puh-lease! Kefka - you hint that you wish the US would help overthrow rulers in the Middle East. It seems to me that your own Afghanistan is a classic example of why we shouldn't. As soon as we helped you push the Soviets out, your country fell into chaos (civil war along ethnic lines) - a situation which you no doubt blame us for. For all the talk of Muslim brotherhood, racism is horrendously violent in virtually all these countries. Pashtun hate Tajiks, who hate Azeris who hate Uzbeks, who hate Shiites who hate Sunnis who consider Alawites subhuman heretics who hate Druze who hate Bedouins, who hate Palestinians, who hate Hashemites, and on and on and on. You no doubt, have a preferred faction in your fractious native land, and I would bet dollars to donuts whether you admit it or not, that it's based on your ethnicity. When we buy oil from rulers, you criticize us for propping up dictatorships, when we stop buying oil from Iraq, you blame us for impoverishing them, when we liberate the oppressed, you curse at us for interfering. As stated earlier- damned if we do, damned if we don't...

CounterTre · February 28, 2002

Art...you get em boy! :lol: One point and then I will leave it to you Art... Hey Kefka that argument about not being able to understand the Koran without knowing Arabic is hogwash. If that were true, then you better have some answers for all of the Muslims who don't speak Arabic...after all how could they be Muslims if they can't even understand the Book that the religion is framed around? The ridiculousness of that vein is representative of the quality of your entire argument. You say so many unbelievably stupid and ignorant things that it's difficult to even figure out where to start. I'll just leave it to Art, he by himself is well more than you can handle.

Kefka · February 28, 2002

Sorry I did read your post, and you proved your point. That you are a racist arrogant *******. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> Mr. Atheist(Art for you those who don't know) here mocks my religion, all religions. And CounterTre( if you didn't read my reply cause Art deleted it), yes it IS a must to know the Arabic language to truely understand what its trying to tell you. And yes it is sad that a lot of Muslims don't know the Arabic language in its fasih (original form). But surprising, here in AMerica especially, new converts are stronger than those "born" into Islam. A lot of my American Muslim friends know arabic better than me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> [ February 28, 2002, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

Art · February 28, 2002

RT, I don't necessarily think the British were overly encouraging of Jewish migration during the Mandate. But, the Peel commission in 1937 began the thought of separating the Jews from the Palestinians into two states. Though that idea was shelved, it was later what, essentially, happened. At the end of WWI the "Mandate system was accepted by the Allied powers and those so associated as the vehicle for the execution of the policy of the Balfour Declaration, and, after a period of delay, the Mandate for Palestine was approved by the League of Nations and the United States. The Mandate itself is mainly concerned with specific obligations of equal weight--positive obligations as to the establishment of the National Home, negative obligations as to safeguarding the rights of the Arabs. The Mandate also involves the general obligation, implicit in every Mandate, to fulfil the primary purpose of the Mandate System as expressed in the first paragraph of Article 22 of the Covenant." That is an actual passage from the Peel Commission. Another interesting passage is, "During the first years of the Civil Administration, which was set up in 1920, a beginning was made on the one hand with the provision of public services, which mainly affected the Arab majority of the population. and on the other hand with the establishment of the Jewish National Home. There were outbreaks of disorder in 1920 and 1921, but in 1925 it was thought that the prospects of ultimate harmony between the Arabs and the Jews seemed so favourable that the forces for maintaining order were substantially reduced." In fact, your fact about the British being overly concerned about Jewish migration was untrue. During the Mandate it is interesting to note that leaders of the region felt Jewish settlement was a requirement because their financial resources would lift a region largely under utilized by the Palestinian Arabs. As the Peel commission pointed out, the Arabs in Palestine generally had an improved life after 1920 during the Jewish immigration and purchasing of land. Both the Arabs and Jewish settlers desired a national home. The claims of the Palestinians that the Jewish people were accorded a greater percentage of the good land in the area was found to be untruthful as the land that was orange groves and crops at the time (1936) was sand dunes and swamps when the Jewish people purchased it and set to work on it. But no matter. These are just intellectual conversations at present. I'd be happy to see some of the rationale behind what you wrote.

Art · February 28, 2002

"Sorry I did read your post, and you proved your point. That you are a racist arrogant *******. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> Mr. Atheist(Art for you those who don't know) here mocks my religion, all religions. " Kefka, I'm an agnostic, not an atheist. And it is true I tend to disbelieve and mock religion. Yours is just more easy to do so. Thank you for recognizing the proof I supplied and provided and that more of your violent backward Muslim brothers were responsible for the WTC attacks. You may now spread your propoganda, though, to be fair, none of us are believing it. Remember, the land the Jewish people purchased and later were granted by the British was largely land wildly undeveloped by the Arabs in Palestine. No homes were lost until the wars began breaking out and the belief in a racial superiority by the Arabs and Muslims in the area became the priority of the region. Trust me, my brother, none reading these posts and seeing your call for the eradication of Jews and an statements regarding who was responsible for the WTC attacks would confuse me for the racist you so clearly are.

Kefka · March 1, 2002

Sorry Art, when you bash Muslims, the Muslim religion, start calling names, justify the Israeli mass occupation and murders and say things like this. You are the racist. All I said what that the State of Israel in itself is a crime. I never called for "the eradication of Jews". Always resorted to lies Art, huh. A crime against the Paleistinian Muslims/Christians. In Lebanon, mostly Christian, they support Hamas... they are the ones who drove them out of Lebanon. But since the Israelis call them terrorits they must be. You just fail to see the facts of the matter. If your not Israeli, rather if your Palestinian you are treated like crap, more so if your a Muslim. Two strikes on them.

Art · March 1, 2002

Kefka, I don't bash Muslims. You bash Muslims by saying the things you do. I'm sorry if it shocks you to see how crude you are when speaking as you do. The state of Israel is a Jewish state. Calling for it to disappear and saying it has no right to exist means you are calling for the extermination of Jews. They are intertwined thoughts. You can't say you support Jews in "Muslim" lands but that you just draw the line at a Jewish state. You don't support Jews unless they are ruled by Muslims as Muslims see fit. You don't support Christians either. You are an isolationist. The term "racist" is not right for either of us because the fact is more than one race occupies a religion. But, you are so anti-Semetic it is frightening and I have no doubt the rest of your brothers agree with you. It's a shame that is so clear.

Kefka · March 1, 2002

Arabs are part of the semetic you fool. Arabs are the cousins of the Jews. lol. Proving your ignorance again. "Isolationist", did you come up with that all by your self? Heres a cookie. Enjoy. Islam tolerates all religions ... you don't. Mr.Atheist. I bet you bash your mother for being Christian. Sad... tsk tsk tsk [ March 01, 2002, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Kefka ]

Art · March 1, 2002

I do bash my mother for being a Christian. When she tells me, "God is the powerful and he grabbed dirt from other planets to create the ball that is the Earth. That is why there are dinosaur bones," I mock her. Just as I mock you when I hear you telling me the Muslims are peaceful when they do not live in peace anywhere they live, except in America. Or when you put on Israel the violence that always starts with those attacking it. I'm aware of what being an anti-Semite is, Kefka. If you think on it, you might even understand what a slight that is against you. But, try not to process too diligently tonight. I'll be back on tomorrow and give you another chance. Today, sadly, all you showed was you hate and will not tolerate Jewish people. That you are blind and unwilling to see the obviousness of the crimes Muslims create the world over. That you excuse these abominations because, afterall, they are committed against the infidel. So, like your prophet Mohammed, neither of us can read Arabic, but, we both are pretty clear on what you and your brothers stand for here. I sleep now. I'm positive you'll have more propoganda to spew tomorrow.

OT Poll In The Islamic World Shows....

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