An Example of How An Organization HELP Can Bring You Down with bad Press.

[DieselPwr44]

ZoEd is right, the vets act as if Gibbs is God and cannot make a mistake.

Gibbs is human and can and has made some mistakes in his football life.

If you were a betting man,betting the percentages of who's right more times than not, who would you put your money on? Lavar or Gibbs??

Gibbs put the only Lombardi trophies this franchise has ever seen in the trophy case out at Redskins Park so forgive me if I lay my money down on Gibbs to win. :2cents:

[SkinsFTW]

Yeah but Lavar helped us to an 8-8 record back in 2001. Cant forget that now.

[Ghost of]

McCardell, 11th round pick, long shot to stick around here anyways. He made it, good for him

?

How is it I was all of 14 when I went to Carlisle and figured out that McCardell was someone we should keep but a HoF staff didn't see that? Seriously.

Granted, it did take him a few more years, but it's not as if we couldn't have kept a 5th guy or stashed someone on IR.

that's why I don't automatically buy into every line that gets sold here at Extreme. Because I remember my own thoughts at the time and I know that us laymen can hit on things that others miss on.

[Ghost of]

The majority (not all) of the "I support Lavar" arguments have been pretty much built on fact-free patent nonsense and emotionally- or ego-disrupted thinking, revisionist history, and idealized speculation to date.

And other than a handful of posters, you can't say the same for the other side? :2cents:

Please. You're better than that.

All I know is that every time we have a debate on this board, Pravda and its numerous outlets take one position and if you deviate from it, no matter how much supporting evidence, you get criticized for either presuming to know more than the "Hall of Fame" coaches or for not toeing the line of the cognoscenti here at Extreme.

It's not possible to be a positive OVERALL person but have specific criticisms. either you're a jerk who is always wrong or you're "right" and mr. Positive. If Antonio Brown doesn't return a kick for a TD, this whole board and the tenor of these debates change.

But only for a short while. As soon as they can scrape the barrel for the most tenuous link to their positions, they hold it up in the twilight and proclaim their victory and superiority. God forbid the other side do that, though.

I love the people who talk about deactivating him for the playoffs, as if in a 3-4 game tournament we wouldn't need his services. :doh:

[Jumbo]

Well Jumbo Hail to the Redskins brother. Here's to kicking the snot out of the Eagles and to agreeing to disagree. :laugh: A little healthy banter is good for all of us, keeps up from doing it with the wives.

Sure wish there was more hunting in the desert though.

Back atcha. A buddy of mine who's very much a hunter says that the best country in the SW is in NW Arizona and New Mexico. I guess unless you're into snakes and lizards it' hard to hunt, at least legally. But I really don't know the area. Ifyou do like varmit-type hunting, those new .17 calibre rifles are pretty damn cool. Sorry about the non-football post guys, next time I'll take it to PM.

:eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck

[altair4]

Another Lavar apologist. I'm sorry. He is out of line and over the hill.

[Jumbo]

And other than a handful of posters, you can't say the same for the other side? :2cents:

Please. You're better than that.

All I know is that every time we have a debate on this board, Pravda and its numerous outlets take one position and if you deviate from it, no matter how much supporting evidence, you get criticized for either presuming to know more than the "Hall of Fame" coaches or for not toeing the line of the cognoscenti here at Extreme.

It's not possible to be a positive OVERALL person but have specific criticisms. either you're a jerk who is always wrong or you're "right" and mr. Positive. If Antonio Brown doesn't return a kick for a TD, this whole board and the tenor of these debates change.

But only for a short while. As soon as they can scrape the barrel for the most tenuous link to their positions, they hold it up in the twilight and proclaim their victory and superiority. God forbid the other side do that, though.

I love the people who talk about deactivating him for the playoffs, as if in a 3-4 game tournament we wouldn't need his services. :doh:

:laugh: That wasn't for you Ghosty. And I did qualify the comment. But I do mean it, and stand by it, even if it remains painting with a bit too broad a brush.

And brother, I was one of those street marchers in the late 60's before I could legally drive a car ( I've changed a little :laugh: ), so I fully support your whole anti-establishment gig. But I don't see the enemy as you see them, or at least what I see is a notably less ominous and less organized opponent than I believe is the one you tilt your lance at. Not that I wouldn't change anything you say, and you make a great advocate for your positions.

One thing I will defintely stand by you on, shoulder to shoulder, is the idea that topics like lavar, QB's, Snyder, portis, bad deals, Gibbs, management, drafts, etc. can be used as single-issue litmus tests for defining whether or not someone is a true Redskins fan. At some point, though, I do believe patterns, trends, or totals, can reasonbly be cited to indicate a reptitive style of stance for a poster that hardly seems fan-like in any normally defined manner. But that's a complex matter .

And, in case its got lost, re: Lavar, I'll re-iterate some other views I've posted: I want him on the team, IF he can cease his media-centered disruptive behavior. I think he's a definite contributor on the field, at times awesome, AND at times a definite f-up. Sorry. Its the same thing Williams, Lewis, and many many others say, and its hardly a ridiculous position on my part. But he's capable of being SO great if we could just get around the "I need to talk to the press today" syndrome. So I'm not in the "he's punk-azz useless" or the "he's an etrenal beast" camp. I like him and love what he says about the skins 50% of the time. The other half, he sucks, is distracting and destructive. I get genuinely concerned for him at times.

I hope I can always count on you to keep me on my game, Ghosty

[ZoEd]

Gibbs is human and can and has made some mistakes in his football life.

If you were a betting man,betting the percentages of who's right more times than not, who would you put your money on? Lavar or Gibbs??

Gibbs put the only Lombardi trophies this franchise has ever seen in the trophy case out at Redskins Park so forgive me if I lay my money down on Gibbs to win. :2cents:

The thing is most of us in Lavar's camp are not making this a Lavar/Gibbs arguement. Most of us are simply stating that the majority want to crucify Lavar for speaking out about what he feels is poor treatment by the FO.

It's easy to sit back and say JG won three trophies I believe him over Lavar but three trophies doesn't exonerate him from liability in the situation. Most of us want to believe that Joe and Gregg are in total control of this team but to think that Dan doesn't still pull the strings is just naive. There has to be something to all of this besides Lavar just being a crybaby.

When Joe benched Patrick a lot of us were outraged because Joe said he would be the starter and many people argue that fact that he was, for 1 half. He looks like a genius now and who can argue with his decision since MB has put together an excellent season. That doesn't mean the situation was handled correctly. PR played his guts out for this team and was rewarded with national humiliation. That's just not right, but as many of you will argue, as long as we win who cares. Call me a wuss, but I do.

Patrick has handled the situation like a trooper and it may have bought him more years in Washington. Lavar on the other hand has not, and may have very possibly sealed his doom. But to say it's all his fault for not keeping his mouth shut for what he feels are injustices is just crazy. How many of you have wanted to or have told your bosses to shove it where the sun don't shine? Lavar's living in a 20,000sqft home and obviously has the luxury to do just that. Poor timing? Maybe but if any of you think Lavar staged this to coincide with this game then I think you're making him out to be more of a jackass then what he really is.

I've spent 16yrs in the USAF and everyone is well aware how the rank structure in the military works. I however no matter what the persons rank is allow someone to speak to me like I am a child or speak down to me like I am less of a man than they are. When the uniform, military or sports, comes off we are all just men. For a coach to berate a player is pure bull****! Even if he totally screwed up that doesn't give a coach the right to speak to someone like they're anything less than a man. He's lucky Lavar didn't rip his head off. Then again he's just an emotional loose cannon that spouts off for no reason but has enough sense to not throttle someone berating him in front of his friends and teamates. I know this whole story hasn't been confirmed but from what I've read about Lindsey and how he treats players I'm sure there is some substance to it.

Bottom line if we look at these players as if they're a commodity and their only purpose in life is to be a company man then it's easy to disconnect. But if you look at them like they're men who happen to play a sport then it makes it diffucult to see things like this transpire. At what point do they become men with the right to speak out when they're being treated different or unjust?

I'm over it, bring on the Eagles.

[TheLongshot]

It's easy to sit back and say JG won three trophies I believe him over Lavar but three trophies doesn't exonerate him from liability in the situation. Most of us want to believe that Joe and Gregg are in total control of this team but to think that Dan doesn't still pull the strings is just naive. There has to be something to all of this besides Lavar just being a crybaby.

Considering that just about everyone says that Danny doesn't? Considering that most of us know that Gibbs wouldn't put up with it? Considering that the moves in the past couple of years are not much like the ones previous to that. Yes, the owner has some say, but Gibbs has the final word right now, mainly because Danny respects him.

When Joe benched Patrick a lot of us were outraged because Joe said he would be the starter and many people argue that fact that he was, for 1 half. He looks like a genius now and who can argue with his decision since MB has put together an excellent season. That doesn't mean the situation was handled correctly. PR played his guts out for this team and was rewarded with national humiliation. That's just not right, but as many of you will argue, as long as we win who cares. Call me a wuss, but I do.

I agree with this for the most part. I think it wasn't handled very well, and I think if you asked Gibbs about that, he might agree with you.

Patrick has handled the situation like a trooper and it may have bought him more years in Washington. Lavar on the other hand has not, and may have very possibly sealed his doom. But to say it's all his fault for not keeping his mouth shut for what he feels are injustices is just crazy. How many of you have wanted to or have told your bosses to shove it where the sun don't shine? Lavar's living in a 20,000sqft home and obviously has the luxury to do just that. Poor timing? Maybe but if any of you think Lavar staged this to coincide with this game then I think you're making him out to be more of a jackass then what he really is.

The fact is, Lavar did call a reporter to his house to tell him something. I believe he told whatever he wanted to say, period.

I've spent 16yrs in the USAF and everyone is well aware how the rank structure in the military works. I however no matter what the persons rank is allow someone to speak to me like I am a child or speak down to me like I am less of a man than they are. When the uniform, military or sports, comes off we are all just men. For a coach to berate a player is pure bull****! Even if he totally screwed up that doesn't give a coach the right to speak to someone like they're anything less than a man. He's lucky Lavar didn't rip his head off. Then again he's just an emotional loose cannon that spouts off for no reason but has enough sense to not throttle someone berating him in front of his friends and teamates. I know this whole story hasn't been confirmed but from what I've read about Lindsey and how he treats players I'm sure there is some substance to it.

At the same time, has Lavar acted like an adult in this whole deal? Has he acted like a professional? I know if someone continued to act like a child in front of me, I might lose it as well. It goes both ways. It certainly doesn't make it right, but that's one incident by a coach, as opposed to many by Lavar in over a year. The fact is, Lavar has more evidence against him. Patrick, in the meantime, bided his time, knowing his opportunity will come around again, and it has. Lavar makes it as painful as possible.

Jason

[ZoEd]

I guess we'll never know the truth. Let's just hope he can help us beat Philly, after that I guess it's just business.

[Ghost of]

Something that the NFL Access guys Terrell Davis and Rod Woodson pointed out, with great enthusiasm I point out, is that Junior Seau was a huge freelancer and Woodson, a HOF defensive player said that when you have a guy who can create havoc like an Arrington (and he believes he does when he plays) that such a player is special and there shouldn't be a question about whether or not you keep them.

I just thought that was interesting considering the discussions on this board where it's automatically assumed that certain traits are a negative, mainly because they heard someone else use the word in a pejorative sense.

[DCMONEY]

The thing is most of us in Lavar's camp are not making this a Lavar/Gibbs arguement. Most of us are simply stating that the majority want to crucify Lavar for speaking out about what he feels is poor treatment by the FO.

It's easy to sit back and say JG won three trophies I believe him over Lavar but three trophies doesn't exonerate him from liability in the situation. Most of us want to believe that Joe and Gregg are in total control of this team but to think that Dan doesn't still pull the strings is just naive. There has to be something to all of this besides Lavar just being a crybaby.

When Joe benched Patrick a lot of us were outraged because Joe said he would be the starter and many people argue that fact that he was, for 1 half. He looks like a genius now and who can argue with his decision since MB has put together an excellent season. That doesn't mean the situation was handled correctly. PR played his guts out for this team and was rewarded with national humiliation. That's just not right, but as many of you will argue, as long as we win who cares. Call me a wuss, but I do.

Patrick has handled the situation like a trooper and it may have bought him more years in Washington. Lavar on the other hand has not, and may have very possibly sealed his doom. But to say it's all his fault for not keeping his mouth shut for what he feels are injustices is just crazy. How many of you have wanted to or have told your bosses to shove it where the sun don't shine? Lavar's living in a 20,000sqft home and obviously has the luxury to do just that. Poor timing? Maybe but if any of you think Lavar staged this to coincide with this game then I think you're making him out to be more of a jackass then what he really is.

I've spent 16yrs in the USAF and everyone is well aware how the rank structure in the military works. I however no matter what the persons rank is allow someone to speak to me like I am a child or speak down to me like I am less of a man than they are. When the uniform, military or sports, comes off we are all just men. For a coach to berate a player is pure bull****! Even if he totally screwed up that doesn't give a coach the right to speak to someone like they're anything less than a man. He's lucky Lavar didn't rip his head off. Then again he's just an emotional loose cannon that spouts off for no reason but has enough sense to not throttle someone berating him in front of his friends and teamates. I know this whole story hasn't been confirmed but from what I've read about Lindsey and how he treats players I'm sure there is some substance to it.

Bottom line if we look at these players as if they're a commodity and their only purpose in life is to be a company man then it's easy to disconnect. But if you look at them like they're men who happen to play a sport then it makes it diffucult to see things like this transpire. At what point do they become men with the right to speak out when they're being treated different or unjust?

I'm over it, bring on the Eagles.

Good post. The mere fact that these coaches would insinuate that Holdman was better for defense challenged the intelligence of the fans. Once again Lavar can make more plays by accident than Holdman would on purpose. Holdman started at WLB. How in the hell can't you make plays. Most times your responsibilty is the FB. People spout off Gibbs credentials like he can't be wrong in certain instances. All the Lavar bashers have to admit that the organization in Lavar's case looks suspect also. Lavar is definitely wrong in the timing of this interview though.

[SkinsFTW]

The question I have now is can the site change the avatar for 3000-4000 posts (i'm going to have it after a while, lol)?

Lavar isn't the franchise player anymore. I think it should be Portis or Moss now, maybe even Washington since he isn't going to be the Pro Bowler for long now since he was stiffed.

[TheLongshot]

Good post. The mere fact that these coaches would insinuate that Holdman was better for defense challenged the intelligence of the fans. Once again Lavar can make more plays by accident than Holdman would on purpose. Holdman started at WLB. How in the hell can't you make plays. Most times your responsibilty is the FB. People spout off Gibbs credentials like he can't be wrong in certain instances. All the Lavar bashers have to admit that the organization in Lavar's case looks suspect also. Lavar is definitely wrong in the timing of this interview though.

Only if you ignore what is out there. Did you read what I posted? :doh:

Something that the NFL Access guys Terrell Davis and Rod Woodson pointed out, with great enthusiasm I point out, is that Junior Seau was a huge freelancer and Woodson, a HOF defensive player said that when you have a guy who can create havoc like an Arrington (and he believes he does when he plays) that such a player is special and there shouldn't be a question about whether or not you keep them.

It all depends if "freelancing" is part of the defense. From watching Williams D, it feels like a very coordinated thing where you have to know what the other guys responsibilities are so you know where you are supposed to be.

Jason

[Jumbo]

Something that the NFL Access guys Terrell Davis and Rod Woodson pointed out, with great enthusiasm I point out, is that Junior Seau was a huge freelancer and Woodson, a HOF defensive player said that when you have a guy who can create havoc like an Arrington (and he believes he does when he plays) that such a player is special and there shouldn't be a question about whether or not you keep them.

I just thought that was interesting considering the discussions on this board where it's automatically assumed that certain traits are a negative, mainly because they heard someone else use the word in a pejorative sense.

Terrell & Rod state a pedestrian but valid point, depending on team/player/situation context, though I don't see it as bringing anything new to discussions on Lavar & the Redskins for many of us. But your second paragraph reaches a bit.

First, you sometimes do what you chastise others for in your energetic effrots to advocate for Lavar. Specifically, here you repeat the behavior of lumping all dissenters with your position together, something you understandably detest when you believe it's being done on the other "side".

Saying something is "automatically assumed" on "this board" is obviously unsupportable at face value, so serves no purpose other than to make you seem pedantic. And to quote an intelligent poster I know, "you're better than that".

You may guess at which indivduals arrived at a conclusion after thought and which are just reflexively parroting a POV they've adopted for whatever reason by their patterns, but either way there are always both types of reaction. They're obviously not all "automatic", especially just because they may (may) disagree with you in large volume. I, for instance, have given more than a little thought to the different approaches that have already been explored with Lavar's playing assignments, from freelancing to systemizing his play with varying degrees of control, in forming my opions.

And having formed a "read" on many other posters here, I have no doubt that though they may be far less favorable in their Lavar views, they have thought of how freelancing can be a fine quality, depending on the actual, real, consistent skils of the player, and the contextual setting for the defensive schemes as well as team chemistry. Therein lies many value judgements about those factors, and we can differ on whether its worth adjusting them towards re-emphasizing a freelancing Arrington or not.

And "this board", as you like to point out with justifiable intensity at times, can hardly be reduced to some narrow frame even on any one side of an issue.

BTW, :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck

[JuiceMan_74]

This is not a clear cut issue, and the Redskins front office does have to take some of the blame in the way this has played out. Arrington wouldn't be the first player the team has handled poorly. Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar.

thank you, you mean to tell me that every player the redskins phased out is a malcontent?? no there more to it. the redskins do a great job of spinning stuff in there favor, erybody used to love lavar arrington and you guys have turned on him its ridicolous.