Joe Sick Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I guess any riots that happen in the next couple of days will be the FBIs fault. Gitmo Guards Accused of Mistreating Koran Newly Released FBI Documents Detail Allegations http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/25/AR2005052501395.html By Dan Eggen Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, May 25, 2005; 4:54 PM Nearly a dozen detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran, including one who said in 2002 that guards "flushed a Koran in the toilet," according to new FBI documents released today. The summaries of FBI interviews, obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union as part of an ongoing lawsuit, also include allegations that the Koran was kicked, thrown to the floor and withheld as punishment and that guards mocked Muslim prisoners during prayers. The release of the new FBI documents comes in the wake of an international uproar over a now-retracted story by Newsweek magazine, which reported that an internal military report had confirmed that a Koran was flushed down a toilet. The retracted story has been linked by the Bush administration to deadly riots overseas. Nearly all of the hundreds of pages of documents consist of FBI summaries of detainee interrogations, and therefore do not generally provide corroboration of the allegations. At least two detainees also conceded that they had not personally witnessed mistreatment of the Koran but had heard about incidents from other inmates, the records show. But the records, many of which were heavily edited by the government, further underscore the widespread nature of allegations related to the Koran and Islam among detainees at Guantanamo. Red Cross investigators in 2002 and 2003 documented what they considered reliable allegations of Koran mistreatment at the facility, and some detainees have made similar allegations through their attorneys. A Defense Department spokesman was not immediately available for comment today. Pentagon officials have said previously that detainee allegations about the Koran have not been considered credible, although authorities have launched an internal review in the wake of the Newsweek controversy. Amrit Singh, an ACLU attorney, said in a press release that "the United States' own documents show that it has known of numerous allegations of Koran desecration for a significant period of time." "The failure to address these allegations in a timely manner raises grave questions regarding the extent to which such desecration was authorized by high-ranking U.S. officials in the first place," Singh said. The new documents include other allegations of questionable treatment at Guantanamo, including two reports of beatings by guards and a report that a female guard told a prisoner she was menstruating and then "wiped blood from her body on his face and head." The latter incident, which would be considered highly offensive to a Muslim man, is similar to a claim made by Erik Saar, a former Army translator at Guantanamo who has written a book about mistreatment of detainees there. The government has said two female interrogators have been reprimanded, including one for smearing fake menstrual blood on a captive. Following the reports of Koran mistreatment by the Red Cross and others, the Pentagon issued rules in January 2003 governing the handling of the book and forbidding its placement on the floor, near a toilet or in other "dirty/wet areas." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 "Nearly a dozen detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison in Cuba told FBI interrogators that guards had mistreated copies of the Koran" "Nearly all of the hundreds of pages of documents consist of FBI summaries of detainee interrogations, and therefore do not generally provide corroboration of the allegations." They have no problem killing other people and chopping their heads off. Yet, their statements would be taken as fact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manleyistheman Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by Johnny Punani [bThey have no problem killing other people and chopping their heads off. Yet, their statements would be taken as fact... [/b] Good point. The fact that they kill people does not automatically make their statements false, however. Neither you nor I, will ever know if its true or not so people need to stop talking as if they know for a fact what happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 I'm sorry. Isn't it already a proven fact that Newsweek made the whole thing up out of thin air, and did so because they hate Amarica and freedom, and want to whip up opposition to our fighting men in the Middle East? I read it on this board, over and over. It must be true. Stop spreading this filthy FBI propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 There has been no evidence presented in any court of law anywhere in the world demonstrating that any of these people have ever attempted to or collaborated in the killing of any people. That's not to say it hasn't been done, but guilty until proven innocent isn't a bad policy. To say that these guys are murderers is kind of silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by Ignatius J. There has been no evidence presented in any court of law anywhere in the world demonstrating that any of these people have ever attempted to or collaborated in the killing of any people. That's not to say it hasn't been done, but guilty until proven innocent isn't a bad policy. To say that these guys are murderers is kind of silly. We wouldn't be holding them completely incommunicado for three years if they weren't guilty as sin. This is America, buddy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by Ignatius J. There has been no evidence presented in any court of law anywhere in the world demonstrating that any of these people have ever attempted to or collaborated in the killing of any people. That's not to say it hasn't been done, but guilty until proven innocent isn't a bad policy. To say that these guys are murderers is kind of silly. Huh? Most of the people in custody were captured during combat against US Forces. Yet, there is no evidence they tried to kill Americans? Amazing... Also, courts of law don't apply in their case. They are enemy combatants and subject to the UCMJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 We shouldn't be holding them if they aren't guilty as sin, but unfortuantely, I'm not willing to trust our government. Punani, they were not all captured during combat against US forces. They were captured because they were suspected enemy combatants. What does that even mean? Suppose that a group of "terrorists" came into a house and pointed a gun at the owner. They then fired on several US positions and left. Is the owner of the house an enemy comabatant? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 This just goes to show how truly sad our administration is. THey come out and rip Newsweek, when they did their job. Now it turns out that the article was true. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by Johnny Punani They have no problem killing other people and chopping their heads off. Yet, their statements would be taken as fact... Um, a great many of the people in Gitmo have really good alabis for the times of the beheadings. Unless you're intent is to say that folks were beheaded by Muslims, and the folks in Gitmo are Muslims, and that's close enough for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by chomerics This just goes to show how truly sad our administration is. THey come out and rip Newsweek, when they did their job. Now it turns out that the article was true. :doh: Unless we are cutting their balls off and shoving leeches down their throat, I don't want to effing hear it. The sympathy felt for a terrorist in Gitmo makes me sick to my stomach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle Unless we are cutting their balls off and shoving leeches down their throat, I don't want to effing hear it. The sympathy felt for a terrorist in Gitmo makes me sick to my stomach. Swing and a miss. . . The point was that the administration cried foul, put up a stink and got everyone riled up about a story that was true. . . but then again, how can you see this if you can't see the turmoil going on now int the RRR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by chomerics Swing and a miss. . . The point was that the administration cried foul, put up a stink and got everyone riled up about a story that was true. . . but then again, how can you see this if you can't see the turmoil going on now int the RRR. DETAINEE COMPLAINTS!!!!!! You believe them??? wow............... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle DETAINEE COMPLAINTS!!!!!! You believe them??? wow............... I believe the FBI papers, which is what the Newsweek story was on, lest we forget. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by portisizzle DETAINEE COMPLAINTS!!!!!! You believe them??? wow............... I believe that Newsweek had a basis for its story. That is the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by Predicto We wouldn't be holding them completely incommunicado for three years if they weren't guilty as sin. This is America, buddy. So, for example, the Canadian citizen we kidnapped from the international terminal at JFK, and flew to Syria with a list of questions that the US wanted the Syrians to ask him while they were torturing him, because we wanted to know if he had ever worked for the same company as the brother of a suspected terrorist, (and who was then released, after a year of torture, without any charges filed), he was "guilty as sin", right? Or are you going to claim that the international terminal, technically, isn't US territory (legally, he never entered the US), so therefore, this kind of thing does happen, but not in the US? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Conservatives simply do not understand the issue here. They say that since we accused them of being terrorists they must be terrorists. This is a joke. While most of the people at Gitmo are not worthy of sympathy, the denial of due process means that some people in gitmo are innocent. Those people absolutely deserve sympathy because they are not terrorists. Why not make the process transparent? Portisizzle, why do you think it is wrong to have sympathy for a man who was wrongly imprisoned? (I'm not talking about the terrorists) Are you simply saying that the US army is infallible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Now, hopefully, in an attempt to discuss the actuall, important, issue, here. In the last discussion of this subject, somebody (Art?) asked a question. AFAIK, I'm the only one who attempted to answer it. The question was: If these allegations were true, do you have a problem with that? My response was: No, flushing a book isn't torture. No, it doesn't even qualify as "going too far" in an interrogation. But, yes, I believe our interrogators shouldn't do it, because we know that our enemies in this war are going to claim that the war is between the evil infidels and Islam. And, to me, if we're doing things like this, then it hurts our PR war. I would condone it if it worked (which I'd consider unlikely, but as I'd read once, "If it's stupid, but it works, then it isn't.) and if there was a good reason. (I'm not aware of any rule that we have to be "nice" all the time. But I'd be aware that tactics like this (if true) have a cost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 25, 2005 Share Posted May 25, 2005 Originally posted by Ignatius J. Why not make the process transparent? I agree. Just as the Muslims aren't helping their cause by rioting in the streets because somebody made a movie that had a Muslim terrorist in it, The Bushies aren't helping their cause by prosecuting people for simply trying to reveal the names of the people being held. The more they try to claim that civilization would colapse if they even revealed a rough estimate of the number being held, the more people will imagine dark and sinister things going on behind that wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by chomerics This just goes to show how truly sad our administration is. THey come out and rip Newsweek, when they did their job. Now it turns out that the article was true. :doh: That article doesn't prove anything. Did you even read it Chom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Larry Um, a great many of the people in Gitmo have really good alabis for the times of the beheadings. Unless you're intent is to say that folks were beheaded by Muslims, and the folks in Gitmo are Muslims, and that's close enough for you? Oh, you are privy to those alabis Larry? I would love to hear some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 We have the Virgin Mary covered in Elephant feces and a cross put into a glass of Urine upside down... AND thats a Museum say in N.Y. just for the outrage.. IF they flushed the Koran what is the big deal other than it brings out the nutjobs that are willing to kill people over it... To report that the Koran was flushed is a story how? What Geneva Convention rule was broken? What Moral or Ethical rule was broken? What was the point that started this firestorm of nothing? Other than 24hrs to fill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Johnny Punani Oh, you are privy to those alabis Larry? I would love to hear some. Many of then were in Gitmo at the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Punani2 Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Larry Many of then were in Gitmo at the time. Were they at Gitmo when they were shooting at American Forces? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted May 26, 2005 Share Posted May 26, 2005 Originally posted by Johnny Punani Were they at Gitmo when they were shooting at American Forces? Oh, so now we've gone from "They have no problem killing other people and chopping their heads off" to "they were shooting at American Forces". Is this going to be like "Thank you for playing 'Why We Went to War!'"? If I point out that several people have already been released from there, who've said that they were unarmed, and were simply rounded up in a sweap of the general area of a battle, are you going to show me what's behind Door Number Three of "Why they're all guilty, every single one of them, I just can't think of why"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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