Phat Hog Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Originally posted by Predicto It is a woman's body and a woman's issue. If the fetus is fully human, it's a woman's and a baby's body - both deserving protection. It's a human issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Originally posted by Phat Hog If the fetus is fully human, it's a woman's and a baby's body - both deserving protection. It's a human issue. But I cannot separate the concept from the fact that the fetus is fully contained in the body of a woman, with complete autonomy and rights of her own. I cannot tell her what to do with her body. And I don't think anyone else should either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 My wife is pregnant, the only way she'd have an abortion is if her life was in jeopardy or if the fetus/child/unborn had severe problems/deformities etc... That being said, It's not my place to tell someone else what to do with their body. If the fetus can live outside the body, remove it and give it to a prolifer to adopt. We don't need anymore unwanted kids in the system being supported by tax payers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Originally posted by Predicto But I cannot separate the concept from the fact that the fetus is fully contained in the body of a woman, with complete autonomy and rights of her own. I cannot tell her what to do with her body. And I don't think anyone else should either. You restated your premise and didn't address my statement. I'll ask a direct question...is the fetus fully human? Consider the Scott Peterson case/conviction in your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Originally posted by codeorama My wife is pregnant, the only way she'd have an abortion is if her life was in jeopardy or if the fetus/child/unborn had severe problems/deformities etc... That being said, It's not my place to tell someone else what to do with their body. If the fetus can live outside the body, remove it and give it to a prolifer to adopt. We don't need anymore unwanted kids in the system being supported by tax payers. Heard your baby's heart beat yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLadyRaven Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Originally posted by Phat Hog You restated your premise and didn't address my statement. I'll ask a direct question...is the fetus fully human? Consider the Scott Peterson case/conviction in your answer. Depends at what stage - there is a difference between 2 weeks and 9 months Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Originally posted by DarkLadyRaven Depends at what stage - there is a difference between 2 weeks and 9 months There are indeed obvious differences...still does not address the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by Phat Hog You restated your premise and didn't address my statement. I'll ask a direct question...is the fetus fully human? Consider the Scott Peterson case/conviction in your answer. The fetus has the potential to someday be fully human. But I cannot be the judge beyond that, because it is not inside of/part of my body, it is inside of/part of a woman's body. I am an autonomous being, and there is nothing anyone can tell me to do with my body or make me do with my body if I don't want to. I feel it necessary to give the same deference to women with their bodies. Regardless of whether or not they are pregnant, it is still their body, and their choice. I don't see any way around it unless I give women second-class citizen status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 I prefer DarkLady's statement: Its a boy/its a girl i don't care it has to go if the women wants it to go period.. Easy to defend, and a simple statement even if i dont believe it.. It's the people that say.. Its not a human, it can't survive outside the womb.. Its yellow on a tuesday in april...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 50 million dead babies since roe vs wade “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” (Proverbs 31:8-9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLadyRaven Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by prophet 50 million dead babies since roe vs wade “Speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves for the rights of all who are destitute. Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.” (Proverbs 31:8-9) I can use this quote to defend Socialism, communism, and high taxes. I have also seen quotes from Paul that defend slavery. One can use bible quotes to defend anything- I have literally seen this in church Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by DarkLadyRaven I can use this quote to defend Socialism, communism, and high taxes. I have also seen quotes from Paul that defend slavery. One can use bible quotes to defend anything- I have literally seen this in church apples and oranges.. and what church? whats the name of it? where is it? anyone that actually reads the text knows that Paul was speaking about how to handle unfair treatment... and that is our call in life to respond correctly when we are mistreated. What we do know for a fact is that in this country we have seen people of color called non-human's. and most people for a good period of time did nothing about it because it didn't benifited them(out of convience). But atleast those people of color had a voice to speak up for their rights, and fought back. I wonder if we went back 150 years.. which side people would be on? 50 million murders against babies alone in this country since 1973. This blood guilt will not go unnoticed. You shall besiege it...for I have assigned you the same number of days as the years of their sin." (Ezek. 4:3-5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkLadyRaven Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by prophet apples and oranges.. and what church? whats the name of it? where is it? anyone that actually reads the text knows that Paul was speaking about how to handle unfair treatment... and that is our call in life to respond correctly when we are mistreated. What we do know for a fact is that in this country we have seen people of color called non-human's. and most people for a good period of time did nothing about it because it didn't benifited them(out of convience). But atleast those people of color had a voice to speak up for their rights, and fought back. I wonder if we went back 150 years.. which side people would be on? Mount Olive Baptist church Alexandria Va.- How is what I said appels and oranges? Speaking of Apples and Oranges--- Black people and fetuses that cannot live without the mother are exactly this. How are they equal - I have seen pics of 5 weeks old fetuses and have said what the hell is this? I speak from what I feel- I feel that a decision made between a person and the mighty god is just between them and non of my business because I can barely handle my business. I will not go to another person and tell them how to live their life. I dont have the time or the GALL to do that right now. What goes on between God and a person who makes a choice is their business. Would you take care of those allegeded 50 million- or would you cut welfare and let them cruely starve in the street to avoid the welfare state or high taxes? If you want to be prolife- help those who are already here- like the homeless, people without health care including illegals, those suffering human rights abuses in China and around the world, people dying of Aids in Africa, and those dying in Sudan.( No matter the cost) Our country has been blessed greatly- those that are given the most have the most requirements on them- in my opinion. Until you are pro-life in all regards- shut up because I dont want to here pick and choosers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by Predicto The fetus has the potential to someday be fully human. You are classifying the fetus as non-human based on what? I am making that assumption based upon your statement above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by DarkLadyRaven I speak from what I feel- That is the whole unfortunate concept behind the pro-abortion crowd. It's never based upon clear evidence of what defines a human being. Same concept that brought us the extermination of Jews and the enslavement of Blacks...when you make a segment of society less than human, then it's socially permissible to do what you will. But we can all rest now because Predicto has informed us all that the fetus is not human - only potentially human, making a lot of scientists green with envy. :notworthy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 I used to think i was incapable of raising two girls by myself also. It's amazing what you can do when lil smiles shine up at you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEF Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by Phat Hog That is the whole unfortunate concept behind the pro-abortion crowd. It's never based upon clear evidence of what defines a human being. Same concept that brought us the extermination of Jews and the enslavement of Blacks...when you make a segment of society less than human, then it's socially permissible to do what you will. But we can all rest now because Predicto has informed us all that the fetus is not human - only potentially human, making a lot of scientists green with envy. :notworthy I thought she told you to shut up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 I thought we "Proved" a fetus is a human being. When the women went in to get an abortion she had twins. The abortion killed "something" and the "twin" lived. Now she is sueing to get money to help raise that child... So now we have evidence that the "something" was a child and the twin survivor was also a child and the case can now be closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by Phat Hog Heard your baby's heart beat yet? No, too early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 I guess what baffles me is how so many people can get so uptight about OTHER people. I know, the first thing some of you are going to say is "it's murder..." etc... But most of you are the same people saying abortion is ok in cases of rape and incest. Why??? Did the fetus/child do anything to deserve to be murdered (since that's how you feel about it). If it's murder, it's murder, the child/fetus is innocent. Why make it ok to murder them in that situation? I wouldn't have an abortion. There's my answer. But I'm not going to make it illegal. You want my true feelings? Maybe there should be more abortions. There are too many kids having kids. We have threads every day talking about how bad parenting is, how bad kids are becoming... Why is that? Because kids are having unprotected sex... we can't teach them to use protection because that's not the moral thing to do, it's only ok to teach them NOT to have sex, but lets face it, we know how it was when we were kids... Is abstinance really going to work?? So lets force more kids to have kids and put more financial burdens on the tax payers. More foster kids. In a perfect world, everyone would be responsible and face up to their responsibilities. But that's not the world we live in. If you are so gung ho about abortion being murder, then #1, don't have one in ANY situation and #2 go adopt some foster kids and don't accept any government money for it. Just my 2cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by Thiebear Ahhh I'm the idiot... Yet you just said again If a person I'm with gets pregnant and its MY kid, I deserve some say.. BUT YOU DON'T. I have 2 children.. how many do you have and do you know the law? NO?, cut back on the "idiot" statements then there lippy... So now your saying 4-5 weeks isnt human or alive? So your limit now is 4-5 weeks? So at 23 weeks its good and in the picture drinking from a bottle but 17 weeks before that its not even human? Thats a tough line to follow... You say genocide? I was using the: See that was the exact same thing said about that also and that was only 6 million people...(this is what 42 million give or take a couple million so although you are correct in a sense, i still have a fraction of a point... Then you say: If a person I'm with gets pregnant...... as then you will pay attention? Cause if you wait till then you get what you deserve by not planning ahead.. Thanks for the idiot remark though cause I can see you put a lot of thought into Pregnancy and how it would affect you... Aight, legally, I probably have no say. But between two parents they should atleast talk about it, ya know what I'm sayin? Let's get rid of the genocide talk, because it has nothing to do with abortion. We're not wipping out a entire race with poison gas now are we? I don't know exactly when a fetus is developed enough to survive outside the womb. If it's 4-5 weeks like you said(which doesn't sound right), that should be enough time to make up your mind on whether or not to have an abortion. That is a harsh line, no doubt about it, but that's how I feel about the issue. * :laugh: lippy, man, that's some funny mess... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by codeorama I guess what baffles me is how so many people can get so uptight about OTHER people. I know, the first thing some of you are going to say is "it's murder..." etc... But most of you are the same people saying abortion is ok in cases of rape and incest. Why??? Did the fetus/child do anything to deserve to be murdered (since that's how you feel about it). If it's murder, it's murder, the child/fetus is innocent. Why make it ok to murder them in that situation? I wouldn't have an abortion. There's my answer. But I'm not going to make it illegal. You want my true feelings? Maybe there should be more abortions. There are too many kids having kids. We have threads every day talking about how bad parenting is, how bad kids are becoming... Why is that? Because kids are having unprotected sex... we can't teach them to use protection because that's not the moral thing to do, it's only ok to teach them NOT to have sex, but lets face it, we know how it was when we were kids... Is abstinance really going to work?? So lets force more kids to have kids and put more financial burdens on the tax payers. More foster kids. In a perfect world, everyone would be responsible and face up to their responsibilities. But that's not the world we live in. If you are so gung ho about abortion being murder, then #1, don't have one in ANY situation and #2 go adopt some foster kids and don't accept any government money for it. Just my 2cents. The question is how easy is it to prevent a pregnacy? its not like people don't know how to prevent it. Lets kill a human life, because they are careless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by prophet The question is how easy is it to prevent a pregnacy? its not like people don't know how to prevent it. Lets kill a human life, because they are careless. Like I said, in a perfect world we could solve that. So let me ask, are you one of the typical right wing christians that is against teaching kids about contraceptives and the risks of unsafe sex? You probably think sex ed shouldn't be taught in school, it's the parents responsibility, right? Or am I mistaken about you? Because I agree that we need to teach people that having sex has implications and when they have sex and and a child, it's their responsibility to deal with it. The problem is that kids have kids and society ends up paying for it. Now kids are being raised by grandparents, or don't have any parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by codeorama Like I said, in a perfect world we could solve that. So let me ask, are you one of the typical right wing christians that is against teaching kids about contraceptives and the risks of unsafe sex? I prefer abstinence. but the fact of the matter is people will have sex. I don't know about you, but I knew from 10 what caused someone to get pregnant, and how to prevent it.... ? what most people don't want is a school system showing everyone how to have sex, and thats its ok to do it. If you need your kid taught how to protect his/her self from having self control... let it be something you sign them up for. It SHOULD NOT be something that is forced on every child. These young kids that are getting pregnant... know what they are doing, and how to prevent it. They don't care, because we allowed them to many options as a society. they have been taught that there are no consequences for their actions. and its not typical right wing chirstians that are not the problem... its the carefree society that "again" has absolutly no morals. When we have 12 year olds having sex its not the "right winged christians" fault. Its the sorry butt parents fault first, and then I woulds say the media outlets second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Originally posted by prophet I prefer abstinence. but the fact of the matter is people will have sex. I don't know about you, but I knew from 10 what caused someone to get pregnant, and how to prevent it.... ? what most people don't want is a school system showing everyone how to have sex, and thats its ok to do it. If you need your kid taught have to protect his/her self from having self control... let it be something you sign them up for. It SHOULD NOT be something that is forced on every child. These young kids that are getting pregnant... know what they are doing, and how to prevent it. They don't care, because we allowed them to many options as a society. No consequences for their actions. and its not typical right wing chirstians that are not the problem... its the carefree society that "again" has absolutly no morals. When we have 12 year olds having sex its not the "right winged christians" fault. Its the sorry butt parents fault first, and then I woulds say the media outlets second. First, I'm like you, I understand the ramifications of having unsafe sex. We are not the problem. Second, since we are adults and not the problem, we realize that the problem is with the other people who are irresponsible. So while my child and your child may NOT need sex ed through school, maybe the kids who's parents don't give a damn about them do? Maybe they need some sex ed, maybe their parents are not there for them who knows, but just telling kids to not have sex isn't going to work, you admit that yourself. No finally, we both agree that the problem is that there are no consequences for their actions. So what should the consequences be? Force them to take care of a child they don't want? That could be abusive to a child. Imagine that, having a parent that didn't want you. Don't say to put the child up for adoption, that only works for white newborn kids. Not too many people out there trying to adopt kids of other races (sorry if that offends anyone, but from what I see in my area, that tends to be the case). Then you have tons of kids that are NOT newborns that don't have parents and are wards of the state, the only people that take them in are the foster parents that are getting paid by the state, here in Va it's like 1800 a month per child. Probably more now, but I know of 10 people alone that have 8 or more foster kids and treat it as a business for the money. Can't say that they treat the kids all that great, but hey, what is social services going to do? The problem is that you can't teach kids (other kids, not ours, because we will teach our kids correctly, we are good parents) about safe sex, they can't have abortions if they are not ready for a child and then as a conservative, we don't want to fund welfare ( I sure don't) so who pays for all these kids that no one wants to adopt yet their own parents don't want them? My point is that while I won't have an abortion, I see no need to take that option away from others. While I wouldn't do it, it actually is benefitial to me if there are less unwanted kids in the world. I personally wouldn't want to grow up a ward of the state. I had 2 loving parents and wouldn't want it any other way. However, I totally understand that someone else may have a different opinion, so I maintain, this is my opinion only, I see no need to enforce my non abortion views on others. Let them choose what's right for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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