Poll: Draft Grade?

[Major Harris]

Originally posted by yoskins

The whole post.

no, actually i agree with a lot of it. i was just pointing out that tampa didn't make the playoffs, yet they are listed as a team that did.

[omerwig]

Originally posted by skin-n-vegas

Obviously, Gregg Williams didnt think so, Why would you then?

Oh, my bad. I didn't realize that Gregg Williams was in charge of personnel. Honestly, bro, there was so much depth at corner in this years draft that we could've gotten several other guys to fill that need. Walt Harris stepped in and played well last year. Trust me, after living out here in LA the last 3 years and going to MANY USC games, Mike Williams is going to be a great player and would've filled a big need for us. Gibbs won Superbowls with people helping him select talent. I love him as a coach, but the Brunell fiasco shows me that he's not that great at evaluating players. Carlos Rodgers is going to be a good corner, but we could've gotten the best WR in the draft and someone like Marlin Jackson or Corey Webster rather than Rodgers and throwing away next years' first rounder for an unproven QB. But wait, I guess since I haven't posted 4 gazillion times then I must be less of a 'Skins fan and my opinion doesn't count...

[boobiemiles]

Originally posted by GSF

I'm going to grade your post an F based on lack of reasearch or informed opinions. You seriously need to change your name since you are still alive and have obviously given up on Gibbs.

I'm sick and tired of people like you. Just because I disagree with some of the moves Joe has made doen't mean I've given up. But here is the bottom line for me. Joe does not know how to grade out talent. This draft says as much. The cardinal rule is you draft a QB for the future if you're going to be the coach of the future. Most coaches that get new jobs usually drafts a new QB, ie Aikman and Johnson, Nolan and Smith, Coughlin and Manning. Joe is not starting over. This isn't his first year. He doesn't have the time to sit back and watch a QB develope. With Brunell the arguement was we needed a veteran to manage the game right, look where that got us. Now it's we need somebody to back up Ramsey just incase the some catastrophy happens. Why not just use the bum we already have. Can we really live with having a rookie at QB. And please don't say "Pittsburg did it". That was Pitt. They had devastating running game, and a cast of good recievers. All Joe did with this draft was make him seem like he is not a man of his word. He sucks at diplomacy. You don't draft a QB of the future when you already have one. We had bigger needs elsewhere. Can anybody really say Campbell is better than McPherson, who was picked up in the 5th round?

[skinsfan_north]

I believe the Skins would have been much better of having selected Mike Williams and then a CB with the second pick (and there were still a few good one available although not as good as Rogers - who in my opinion is the best CB in the draft - but only time will tell). The reason is not because the Skins receiving core is poor, but its because the offense last year was the area of weakness and Mike Williams would definitely help (he was also the best player available at that point if you use that logic). Had he been taken by another team prior to the Redskins selection I would have been elated with the Rogers pick.

The Second pick in the first round in my view was an error. In today's age of the NFL you do not have the luxury of having multiple expensive prospects in any one area. Having Ramsey (who I personally feel is good) and Campbell is something that should not be done in today's NFL. I do not want to knock Campbell because I do think he has great potential, I just feel getting into a trap of having multiple highly paid people at a particular position will not help build a sustainable quality team.

I personally think that N.E. late selection of Matt Cassel was brilliant. A player who played his career in college behind Carson Palmer and Matt Leinart (but was comparable to Leinart when they competed to replace Palmer) - great prospect. That having been said he is a risky selection but worthwhile.

The other picks in the draft I will wait and see. Thought they were fine. I am now hopeful that they pick up Matt Grootegoed - he was awesome on SC and would at the very least be a stand out special teams player.

(As you can probably tell I know quite a bit about SC since I went to school there and follow them carefully - I recognize I have some bias).

Overall, although I am disappointed with the draft I feel the Redskins have improved for the coming season for a few reasons:

(1) The get back Jansen - which is huge

(2) They improved at Center

(3) 1 and 2 above should improve our running game which will improve our passing game automatically (better play action)

(4) Santana Moss adds speed and Patten is a solid WR

(5) Gibbs will make adjustments from what he learned last year

Although I was sorry to see Smoot and Pierce go, they were necessary decisions. We already have significant $$$ tied up in the LB core (with Washington and Arrington) and cannot afford to spend significantly more on one position. Given our Cap space holding onto Smoot would have also been difficult.

Those are just my thoughts on both the draft and offseason.

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by omerwig

Oh, my bad. I didn't realize that Gregg Williams was in charge of personnel. Honestly, bro, there was so much depth at corner in this years draft that we could've gotten several other guys to fill that need. Walt Harris stepped in and played well last year. Trust me, after living out here in LA the last 3 years and going to MANY USC games, Mike Williams is going to be a great player and would've filled a big need for us. Gibbs won Superbowls with people helping him select talent. I love him as a coach, but the Brunell fiasco shows me that he's not that great at evaluating players. Carlos Rodgers is going to be a good corner, but we could've gotten the best WR in the draft and someone like Marlin Jackson or Corey Webster rather than Rodgers and throwing away next years' first rounder for an unproven QB. But wait, I guess since I haven't posted 4 gazillion times then I must be less of a 'Skins fan and my opinion doesn't count...

Of course you opinion counts, in that it's just that, opinion.

You are acting rediculous in thinking that Gibbs didnt have input from Gregg Williams!

Name one Corner who was left at #9 that is on par with the way Rogers fits with the Williams D?

Are you honestly saying that you know more about the player evals because you watched M. Williams play 2 seasons ago in college?

Pretty full of yourself bud.

PS

If Mike Williams was the best WR in the Draft, howcome he wasnt picked until #10 even though other teams had as much "glaring need" at WR as we did?

Maybe they, like the skins weighed the risk vs. reward the same way?

I agree that Willimas can and probably will have a good NFL career, but I say that because he landed with a team that can use him in a role that fits him ideally. :2cents:

[yoskins]

Originally posted by skinsfan_north

I believe the Skins would have been much better of having selected Mike Williams and then a CB with the second pick (and there were still a few good one available although not as good as Rogers - who in my opinion is the best CB in the draft - but only time will tell). ...

I do not want to knock Campbell because I do think he has great potential, I just feel getting into a trap of having multiple highly paid people at a particular position will not help build a sustainable quality team. ...

The other picks in the draft I will wait and see. Thought they were fine. ...

Overall, although I am disappointed with the draft I feel the Redskins have improved for the coming season for a few reasons:

(1) The get back Jansen - which is huge

(2) They improved at Center

(3) 1 and 2 above should improve our running game which will improve our passing game automatically (better play action)

(4) Santana Moss adds speed and Patten is a solid WR

(5) Gibbs will make adjustments from what he learned last year

Although I was sorry to see Smoot and Pierce go, they were necessary decisions. We already have significant $$$ tied up in the LB core (with Washington and Arrington) and cannot afford to spend significantly more on one position. Given our Cap space holding onto Smoot would have also been difficult.

Just a few thoughts about your points:

A) More reasons why the skins will be better next year: 6) We drafted some fullbacks that can move the pile and score on the ground close-in; 7) our special teams will be better with the new players, though I don't remember how much, if any, Smoots & Pierce played on special teams--and we signed Prioleau and others;

Mike Williams vs. Rogers: Mild disagreement: I still think it's harder to find a shutdown CB than to find a fast and larger WR. At CB, we're pretty thin even with Harris, but certainly after Harris and Springs. On the other hand, we have similar quality receivers in Jacobs, Patten, Moss, McCants (with his size and new contract, we don't play him??); Thrash; and Gardner. Like soccer, it's harder to make up a score after a TD yielded than to to grind out a score under your own regime. I'd rather have Rogers and not give up the killer TD than have a Mike Williams and still play and play-call stupidly on offense;

C) As for not having multiple highly paid people at a position: cut Brunell, gone is the big salary. Though we'd have to eat more bonus money: maybe a june 1 decision;

D) as for not having enough money to pay for Antonio Pierce, don't even go there, his $6.5 million over 6 years is paltry compared to Barrow, Brunell, McCants, et. al. Why don't we cut those folks (rumors are we will cut Hall and Morton after June 1), along with Raymer/or Friedman and anyone else too old or not being used by the Skins. While Smoots was asking too much money, I still question our paying Brunell what we did; what we will pay Moss; what we are paying McCants while not playing him. Holding on to Smoots is indeed difficult--though not impossible--when you screw up so many other personnel decisions that you're afraid to cut the mistakes because of cap hits. Somewhere I remember seeing that we are paying over $10 million/year for players no longer on the team.

Mainly like you I am guardedly optimistic that Gibbs and staff will get smarter and we open ourselves up to building a core of younger talent while eschewing big monies for over the hill talent--while getting bigger, faster and tougher.

[skinsfan_north]

I agree with many of the points you made, however let me expand a little.

I see you are unhappy with the loss of Pierce (I too am unhappy but understand the move). Part of the move occurs given the poor personal decisions you have alluded to (paying past their prime players ... all pro dollars).

With regards to WR I agree that a great talent at WR will not help unless the playcalling improves. That having been said I believe Mike Williams will be a star (I like McCants but I don't think he will be in the same league as Williams). As well, I worry about the Skins overpaying Moss - although I believe he is talented he is not worth the money he is seeking (I heard he is seeking top 5 money). I just felt getting MW and a CB rather than another QB would have helped the team more. Of course, if Campbell proves to be unbelievable I will be more than happy to be proven wrong!

I hope the skins do cut many of their mistakes, but they need to be careful of the cap, if they did not need to I most certainly think Brunell would be gone! I believe the Skins are not in a great position due to the cap and pray they do not make similar mistakes in the future (i.e. paying too much for marginal players). I am all for the Cornelius Griffin's and Shawn Springs (who are still young enough and have shown great talent).

[Monks04]

Carlos Rodgers is a stud. He's the best CB we will have since Champ. He is big and can tackle, unlike the smaller Smoot. I do question the Campbell pick but in Gibbs I trust. For a guy that had a different offensive coordinator each year, Campbell shows he can adjust very well. The book is out still and we may not know for a while. The tweener in Manual White reminds me of the Stephen Davis pick... Gibbs likes those big backs (i.e. Riggins, Riggs, Byner). McCune is chisled and looks to be a solid pick.

[KDawg]

Pet peeve time... If he's going to play for us, you gotta spell his name correctly...

Carlos Rogers, NOT Rodgers.

Thank you

[Tmac1577]

im gonna give it a B Carlos Rogers has better upside that both rolle and jones Jason Campbell is probably gonna wind up being the best qb to come out of the draft I was soo hopeful that the skins would have picked up heath miller with that pick but now to hear coach gibbs speak about his decision the more it makes good sense to me if god forbid ramsey gets hurt or doesnt pan out then we have a solid guy to step in lets face it brunell is over the hill he will make a good mentor but thats it and hasslebeck has shown flashes of being a solid qb but he is still inconsistant

[omerwig]

Originally posted by skin-n-vegas

Of course you opinion counts, in that it's just that, opinion.

You are acting rediculous in thinking that Gibbs didnt have input from Gregg Williams!

Name one Corner who was left at #9 that is on par with the way Rogers fits with the Williams D?

Are you honestly saying that you know more about the player evals because you watched M. Williams play 2 seasons ago in college?

Pretty full of yourself bud.

PS

If Mike Williams was the best WR in the Draft, howcome he wasnt picked until #10 even though other teams had as much "glaring need" at WR as we did?

Maybe they, like the skins weighed the risk vs. reward the same way?

I agree that Willimas can and probably will have a good NFL career, but I say that because he landed with a team that can use him in a role that fits him ideally. :2cents:

I'm not saying that Gregg Williams didn't have input and I'm certainly not saying that I know more about player evaluation that the 'Skins staff. I'm merely pointing out that our problems last year had nothing to do with the defense. We had two starting linebackers injured and we did quite well putting in lesser known players who performed quite well. I'm not saying Walt Harris is the answer, but he definitely proved himself as a quality DB. We also have a couple of young guys who stepped up and played well last year. Remember Rufus Brown (a STUD at Florida State) and Ade Jimoh? We're not hurting as bad at the corner position as many think. Furthermore, I'm getting really tired of the term "shutdown corner." There is no such thing, especially since the 5-yard rule is in effect. I like the Rogers pick and I think he's going to be very good. But, like I said, our problem isn't the defense...it's our pathetic offense. We could've gotten Mike Williams at #9 and a "value" CB like Marlin Jackson (from Michigan...a big, physical guy much like Rogers), Stanford Routt (Houston...sub 4.45 40 time), Corey Webster (LSU), Darrent Miller (Oklahoma State) or Justin Miller (Clemson). Any one of these guys would've excelled in Gregg Williams' scheme. Oh, wait...you've probably never heard of any of these guys because they weren't featured on ESPN every five seconds. It seems to me skin-in-vegas, that you're too wrapped up in the media hype surrounding the top 3 corners and not very aware of the depth at that position in this years' draft. Rather than select the best PLAYER in the draft with our 9th pick, we took a safe pick. The Redskins front office has done a HORRIBLE job handling personnell issues and I fear that the Broncos will have a VERY HIGH first round selection in the '06 draft courtesy of another sub-par Redskins season that we're all going to suffer through. I hope to God that I'm totally wrong about everything I've written...but I don't think I am. Oh, to answer your question about why Mike Williams wasn't taken earlier? It's because scouts get a hard-on when some no-name runs a 4.3 40 yard dash. God forbid 6'5", 230lb Mike Williams can only run a 4.6...whatever.

[VMAN911]

While listening to Channel 4 Sports yesterday, Coach Gibbs said something that put a huge Smile on my face. When he was defending the Campbell pick, he said that the pick was for the FUTURE of the Skins. George Michael then asked him if he planned on being here long enough to develope his QB Protoge, Gibbs then said something to the effect that he was here for the LONG HAUL!!... With that being said, I now feel a lot more comfortable with the Jason Campbell pick!!...:cool:

[SnyderShrugged]

Originally posted by omerwig

I'm not saying that Gregg Williams didn't have input and I'm certainly not saying that I know more about player evaluation that the 'Skins staff. I'm merely pointing out that our problems last year had nothing to do with the defense. We had two starting linebackers injured and we did quite well putting in lesser known players who performed quite well. I'm not saying Walt Harris is the answer, but he definitely proved himself as a quality DB. We also have a couple of young guys who stepped up and played well last year. Remember Rufus Brown (a STUD at Florida State) and Ade Jimoh? We're not hurting as bad at the corner position as many think. Furthermore, I'm getting really tired of the term "shutdown corner." There is no such thing, especially since the 5-yard rule is in effect. I like the Rogers pick and I think he's going to be very good. But, like I said, our problem isn't the defense...it's our pathetic offense. We could've gotten Mike Williams at #9 and a "value" CB like Marlin Jackson (from Michigan...a big, physical guy much like Rogers), Stanford Routt (Houston...sub 4.45 40 time), Corey Webster (LSU), Darrent Miller (Oklahoma State) or Justin Miller (Clemson). Any one of these guys would've excelled in Gregg Williams' scheme. Oh, wait...you've probably never heard of any of these guys because they weren't featured on ESPN every five seconds. It seems to me skin-in-vegas, that you're too wrapped up in the media hype surrounding the top 3 corners and not very aware of the depth at that position in this years' draft. Rather than select the best PLAYER in the draft with our 9th pick, we took a safe pick. The Redskins front office has done a HORRIBLE job handling personnell issues and I fear that the Broncos will have a VERY HIGH first round selection in the '06 draft courtesy of another sub-par Redskins season that we're all going to suffer through. I hope to God that I'm totally wrong about everything I've written...but I don't think I am. Oh, to answer your question about why Mike Williams wasn't taken earlier? It's because scouts get a hard-on when some no-name runs a 4.3 40 yard dash. God forbid 6'5", 230lb Mike Williams can only run a 4.6...whatever.

It's ironic that you accuse me of being wrapped up in media hype over the corners, (which isnt true at all, in fact I tend to stay away from media projections entirely) while you are on the Mike Williams bandwagon.

My one and only point is that the Staff must have gauged the need higher at corner than WR.

When I see the O changes that were done this offseason, I tend to feel semi confident that we are signing blue collar, quality guys that fit a team and not just the sexy picks of old.

Every season over the past decade, we sign the big name and splash guys that only lead us down their own personal "I am Me" road. I like the fact that the team seems to becoming more and more of a unit rather than an individual focus.

[yoskins]

Originally posted by omerwig

Furthermore, I'm getting really tired of the term "shutdown corner." There is no such thing, especially since the 5-yard rule is in effect. I like the Rogers pick and I think he's going to be very good. But, like I said, our problem isn't the defense...it's our pathetic offense. ...

God forbid 6'5", 230lb Mike Williams can only run a 4.6...whatever.

I understand your point about the new NFL rules on contact. But this puts a greater premium on man coverage skills--if you're a blitzing defense (and we have no DE studs). I don't know how you define a shutdown CB, but if the offense only completes 18 of 65 passes thrown Rogers' way in his senior season, 1 of 4 passes as completions, I think we have some of idea how good he is. (Add in the fact offenses will throw away from his side of the field.) Of course there is no pre-cognition of how he will do in the NFL under the stringent rules, but I think the Skins have a near-shutdown corner with what information we have.

I would like to see how he matches up against Williams, when we play Detroit next, to see how a 6 foot 199 lb. 4.44 cover man does against a 6'4" 230 lb. 4.6 receiver. Put a chain fence around the arena.

[sweet daddy]

anything but an F is to high of a grade....

Sometimes people are so stupid and disorganized that they succeed. I hope this is the case with this office. Bunch of idiots......

[Waleo32]

This is what it is. Mike Williams isn't a sure thing at this point. He was the best WR on Mel Kypers Board, other boards Williams wasn't even the third or even 4th. Saying all that I like Mike Williams, but since he didn't get to play football all of last year, he's a question mark. Now Rogers is a sure thing, you know he's going to be good. He's the best DB since champ. I kind of Reminds me of Champ, (but champ being a little faster). Rogers is a little more physical than champ. He fits what Gregg Williams wants to do. Plus the Pac 10 isn't the strongest conference in football, so Mike Williams can florish in that system. Hell he wasn't even the best WR in USC ever. Keyshawn Johnson was a better college player than Mike. Johnson had a good NFL career but not great!

[skinsfan_north]

FYI - If I am not mistaken

A) Mike Williams was better than Johnson (Mike broke his single season records the last year he played)

Mike did play against some top teams (Michigan, Auburn)

C) There are no such things as sure bets in the NFL draft

I am not saying that he will definitely make it in the NFL - but he was incredible in college!!! I don't by the 'he played against poorer competition or the he is not as good as Johnson was' arguments.

[Waleo32]

Originally posted by skinsfan_north

FYI - If I am not mistaken

A) Mike Williams was better than Johnson (Mike broke his single season records the last year he played)

Mike did play against some top teams (Michigan, Auburn)

C) There are no such things as sure bets in the NFL draft

I am not saying that he will definitely make it in the NFL - but he was incredible in college!!! I don't by the 'he played against poorer competition or the he is not as good as Johnson was' arguments.

Your right out of all the teams he played Michigan, and Auburn. Two competitve teams. That's it. Braylon played the Big Ten teams all year. The Big Team is stacked. Rogers is a sure thing in my opinion. Mike hasn't even played Football since last year. This Mike's last name ain't Jordan. Keyshawn Johnson in college looked like the Greatest Wide Out in the game. And he didn't have a colbert, Steve Smith, who else do you want me to add playing opposite of him. I believe he broke a record at the Sugar Bowl. Keyshawn was way better than Mike in college.