Question for Aethists/Evolutionists

[inmate running the asylum]

Glenn X,

I am sure you can cut and paste the words you want to colorize, but this is the way I control and do it. As far as highlighting sentences in color, on the menu above you have a choice of colors you can use. Click on this and the drop down will show you the choices you have available. For example, take the first one which is "sky blue."

All you have to do is type [/color=sky blue] and then type the words or sentences you want colorized between this and [/color].

Everything typed between those coded letters will be colored accordingly. If you want to use a different color, you just type the name of the different color, such as [/color=limegreen].

Note: I deliberately used slashes marks within the brackets in error, so that I could show you what to do. Actually you are only supposed to use just one "slash" mark like this > "/" within the 2nd brackets at the beginning. Within the 1st bracket no slash mark is typed. Otherwise it won't work correctly. If it doesn't work, its because of a typo and you typed the coded letters in the wrong sequence. You simply go back and correct it.

Try practicing on a short sentence or an old post .... I'm sure you will get the hang of it.

[Terry]

On a side note, PBS just had a documentary on bi-pedal hominnids existing over 6 million years, which would destroy previous ideas of Man evolving from four-legged apes in the convetional chart where you see the different stages of Man's evolution from an ape to a bi-pedal neanderthal type creature to modern day Man.

Not necessarily.

Even if you find a bi-pedal creature, perhaps a hominid, from 6 million years ago, it doesn't automatically mean that it was an ancestor of humans. Bi-pedalism goes back to the dinosaurs and the age of reptiles before that. Evolutionary pressures might have forced an early simian to take an upright posture and walk on two legs.

But that may have been an evolutionary dead-end for that particular branch of the simian family. Indeed, bi-pedalism may have occurred in fits and starts several times until some primates 'got it right'.

They have to prove four things right for their discovery to stand:

their date of 6 million years is correct,

the creature was bi-pedal,

the creature was a hominid,

the creature was an ancestor and not another branch that died out.

[dchogs]

for an interesting read on evolution, humans, and religion, try reading Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. goes into a lot of environmentalism as well. really a great book...

[dchogs]

upon reading my email today, i came across a perfect example of modern day evolution...

One afternoon at Cheers, Cliff was explaining the Buffalo Theory to his

> buddy Norm...

>

> "Well ya see Norm, it's like this... A herd of buffalo can only move as

> fast as the slowest buffalo. And when the herd is hunted, it is the

> slowest and weakest ones at the back that are killed first. This natural

> selection is good for the herd as a whole, because the general speed and

> health of the whole group keeps improving by the regular killing of the

> weakest members.

>

> "In much the same way, the human brain can only operate as fast as the

> slowest brain cells. Excessive intake of alcohol, as we all know, kills

> brain cells, but naturally it attacks the slowest and weakest brain

> cells first. In this way, regular consumption of beer eliminates the

> weaker brain cells, making the brain a faster and more efficient

> machine. That's why you always feel smarter after a few beers."

:laugh:

[OrangeSkin]

I pose one question...how did all life start?

[dchogs]

depends on who you ask...

evolutionists say life started in the primordial slime, and these beginnings have been simulated in a lab setting.

creationists say life started via the hand of God, though this has not been simulated in any setting.

[Yomar]

Originally posted by OrangeSkin

I pose one question...how did all life start?

When did time begin? Out of what was energy and matter created? If our entire frame of reference is based within the confines of space and time, how could there ever have been a beginning and how could it ever possibly end?

dude...:high:

[OrangeSkin]

Funny that religion can answer those questions, but science can't.

[Yomar]

Originally posted by OrangeSkin

Funny that religion can answer those questions, but science can't.

hell, I can "answer" these questions. just don't ask me to prove anything.

[Ignatius J.]

Funny, Orangskin, what answers are those?

Where did god come from?

-DB

[inmate running the asylum]

Terry,

That was a very interesting link you posted on Darwin's finches. Personally I'm partial to yellow warblers over flycatchers myself. :laugh: ....... just kidding Terry.

[Skins24]

rskin 24,

So if you don't believe in evolution rskin24, whats the alternative for you? What do you believe in .... God created the universe in 6 days and rested on the 7th?

????

I just asked for some

REAL proof of evolution, did I say what I believe or did not believe in?

What's easier to believe?

A bunch of cells make themselves, get together for a meeting and decide to create an living being. After a while, some of the cells start to rebel and create their own clan. Millions of years have passed now, and the cells have evolved into these massive creatures called dinosaurs. Meanwhile, the rebelous cells are still just cells. Millions more years pass and the dinosaurs are eventually wiped out. The rebels are still alive however and decide this is the time to rise up. However there are rebels within the rebels. It seems some want to become those massive creatures again, while the others don't necessarily want that. The rebel rebels, after millions of years, don't become quite as big as they would like but some are big nevertheless. Some, for an unknown reason, are very tiny; some learn to swim; some even learn to fly. These cells come to be known as 'animals'. The original cells form is to something quite different. They start off as 'animals' but then they realize they made a mistake in their calculations. Eventually they get it right and become what's known as 'humans'.

or

God created both humans and animals.

[OrangeSkin]

It's now harder to believe in God, since society has taken a decided turn towards teaching scientific theories as fact, but the bottom line is, scientific theories on how the Earth began, when time began, how all life began, and how the universe came to be, hold no more water than religious theories.

[inmate running the asylum]

Orangeskin,

I will grant you that science cannot explain everything YET. But science has come up with a lot of answers and the human race has made a lot of progress as a result. I mean afterall we are not living in caves anymore and thanks to science now you can watch Redskin games over television sets that science invented.

On the other hand where has organized religion proceeded over the centuries? Besides encouraging animosity between men, they still can't prove anything significant that is in the Bibles and are still telling us to believe in invisible angels; talking animals; supernatural events; Noah's ark; invisible gods and devils; exorcisms; and dead people who could come back to life. Yeah right. :laugh:

We don't believe in witches and burning them at the stake anymore.... but we can't even give organized religion credit for that revelation! What I can't figure out is how come the story of the Easter bunny and tooth fairy didn't wind up in my Bible? :laugh:

Rskin24,

So you don't believe or can't accept the information on evolution about the ancient horses evolving into modern day horses? :high:

[Skins24]

Evolution...

What is the purpose?

The purpose is to evolve into a better more perfect being right?

Once perfection is reached...then what?

Do we then start to de-evolve?

If so, then evolution is rather pointless....

[Yomar]

perfection is transitory, a Polar Bear has evolved towards a harmonious existence in freezing temperatures, don't think it would enjoy much success down at the equator.

what's more important, dissecting God (read Life) or appreciating God? personally I prefer to appreciate God first, know God second and only as a way to more greatly appreciate Him. Science is a tool, but in and of itself it is pretty hollow.

[dchogs]

the greeks, romans, norsemen, and countless other cultures have used religion to explain things that they have observed in the world that they didn't understand. their stories seem silly to us now since we understand why the sun travels across the sky (not via chariot, fyi) and why there is lightning and thunder based on scientific research. it seems to me that religion is used to explain that which we don't understand fully; it's a temporary stopgap until science can reveal the truth.

[Glenn X]

Test. Test. One. Two. Three.

Thanks, Inmate.

[inmate running the asylum]

Geez, I just made a couple of posts on this thread a few days ago, referring to this author, Stephen Jay Gould, and now I just read where he died! He was only 60.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/20/obituaries/20CND-GOULD.html

[Barney B]

Inmate, pleaase don't punish yourself over this. It probably had nothing to do with you whatsoever.

[DaFunky1]

I'm going to jump into the fray here and show my ignorance again...

How can we assume life started from primodial ooze, or however it may have started, when we take the second law of thermodynamics into consideration? If everything goes from a point of order to disorder how is that life has evolved into this complicated mass of cells known as human beings, let alone the way the whole solar system is set up? Evolution the way I was taught was all about random chance. If one cell came out of that... how did it know to reproduce? Why would it not have just died out? How many random chances did it take for the cell to learn to divide, assuming it did?

I looked at the link regarding natural selection. So industry comes along, belches out black soot, the lighter moths get eaten because they can no longer hide. How is this evolution? I don't see any adaptation in this, all I see is certain moths being eaten, and the darker ones remaining. There was no change in the moths just in the proportions of the moths. Reminds me when the monk did the pea thing... He picked certain characteristics that were needed. In this case the characteristics were "chosen" by the soot. No adaptation needed because the darker ones would reproduce with darker ones since the light ones were gone. If they were all light and changed I would then be hard pressed to disagree with you regarding an evolution of sorts.

I used to be an evolutionist in my younger years... but there were too many questions for me that science can not answer. They have talked about the "missing link" between man and monkey/ape for years but have never found the "link". I have never seen the "link" between the other steps as well, only speculation.

Since I am not much of a science person these days I would like to ask one of the more learned of the group a question. How does carbon dating work? If I remember correctly that as long as we live we are "consuming" (for lack of a better word) the substance used to carbon date. Does that vary depending on how long we live or can we only "consume" a certain amount?

One last question... Wouldn't it be in the best interest of doberman pinchers if they were already born with their ears and tail cropped? Why haven't we seen an adaptation/evolution there?

I'm sure you science guys can pick me apart, but until I can have a solid satisfactory answer on these things, I'll take it for what it has been called... a theory, and not fact.

Peace

[Terry]

when we take the second law of thermodynamics into consideration? If everything goes from a point of order to disorder how is that life has evolved into this complicated mass of cells known as human beings, let alone the way the whole solar system is set up? Evolution the way I was taught was all about random chance.

OK, let's take the first part.

Consider a drop of water, in a cloud, floating in the atmosphere. The molecule is at a 'point of order' that is not that complex. But if the warm air mass within which it is travelling encounters a much colder air mass, then the droplet of water can freeze. And in freezing, it takes on a much more complex form - as a piece of hail, or even a snowflake. From simplicity to complexity all as part of a perfectly natural phenomonom.

So to say that everything is devolving to a less organized state from an organized state all the time is not true. Hydrogen and helium are the primary constituents of most stars. Yet when massive stars burn up theur nuclear fuel, they go through successive stages of fusing more and more complicated atoms together.

So a rather uncomplicated system - a mass of 90% hydrogen and 10% helium, collapsing under it's own gravitational potential, yet being blown apart by nuclear fusion due to the heat and pressure at the center of that collape, reaches a state of comfortable equilibrium for some billions of years, and starts a process that eventually converts all those simple hydrogen and helium atoms into elements as complex as oxygen and iron. And when it runs out of nuclear fuel and the perpetual nuclear explosion finally comes to an end, the resulting gravitational collapse creates such heat and pressure that all the other nown elements are formed within the resulting explosion.

Now, maybe within the grand scheme of the universe, such events happen in the blinking of an eye, and are thus mere anomalies on it's gradual ride into entropy, chaos, and decay.

But in the scale of time that represents life, that universal blink, (those manufactured anomalies) are the eons and stuff within and from which life (the universe) can find a way to behold itself.

As for how something as complicated as life can organize itself initially, we don't have the answer's yet. But that doesn't mean the answer isn't there, or involves a deity.

Here's my theory: Lets say that there were molecules of organic material within that water droplet as contaminants. And the molecules were frozen within the crystaline structure. Those molecules would be organized within the crystalline latttice in perhaps new and unconventional ways. Those more complex molecules then precipitate into the ocean and other places.

Perhaps the new shaped organic molecule has different valencies, can now bind with certain other molecules in a way that it couldn't before.

Basically, you're looking for a self replicating system. Not necessarily alive (whatever that means), but a system that can create a molecule that when it joins with other molecules can spin off copies of itself from whatever's left over.

And basically, I find that concept far less far-fetched than a being that's always been there, who created everything, knows everyone intimately, and cares how you live your life yet not enough to interfere and prevent some tremendous suffering.

[inmate running the asylum]

Good post, Terry.

Just because science doesnt have ALL the answers at this MOMENT IN TIME, doesnt mean the answers are not out there to be discovered. In medieval times about 1/2 the people in Europe died mysteriously, and the Church blamed it on the Jews and the devil. They claimed that God was punishing everyone because the Jews had committed deicide. Of course we now know that the cause was the Black Plague -- or bubonic plague, carried and spread by fleas and rats.

Yes, evolution is a theory. And some scientists have tweaked the theory in recent years. But at least there is some attempt to explain something rationally found in the fossil records. Man didnt learn to fly either on his first attempt.

Organized religion on the other hand taught for centuries and still wants you to believe in superstitious fairy tales, such as supernatural events like: talking animals, Noah's ark, invisible gods, angels and devils, heaven and hell, dead people coming back alive; the parting of the Red Sea; etc. And they can offer NO PROOF or RATIONAL EXPLANATION!

Religion's argument doesn't hold water. Because if God created everything out of NOTHING, then where did God come from or who created God out of NOTHING? :doh:

[flashback]

DaFunky1, one of the things we've discovered about Science in the last 50 years is that it is much more adept at creating questions than answering them. In fact, for every question you answer with the scientific method, you will probably create at least 2. And as you continue to answer the questions you create, you will deal with smaller and smaller categories of knowledge, which is called "Learning more and more about less and less". So I hope no-one in here is suggesting that science is infallable, or otherwise analogous to God. But science is a different, and quite productive way of looking at the world. The Theory of Evolution is an attempt to explain our world using hypotheses, experimentation and observation. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Mickalino]

Originally posted by inmate running the asylum

Organized religion on the other hand taught for centuries and still wants you to believe in superstitious fairy tales, such as supernatural events like: talking animals, Noah's ark, invisible gods, angels and devils, heaven and hell, dead people coming back alive; the parting of the Red Sea; etc. And they can offer NO PROOF or RATIONAL EXPLANATION!

Inmate, the answers to these questions are out there, and even supported by scientific research. I'm starting to wonder if you have applied the same diligence to searching for clues that support the Bible, as you do searching for clues that support scientific theories.

One scientist found evidence of Noah's Ark's remains at Mt Judi, that was strong enough that the Turkish government endorsed it as the actual remains.

In addition , here is a small excerpt which strongly supports the Red Sea crossing :

Ron Wyatt, when searching for the Red Sea Crossing Site, found a beach on the Gulf of Aqaba which could easily have held the multitude, their flocks, and also pharaoh's army. Wyatt later went diving in the Red Sea and found various artifacts which he identified as chariot wheels and chariot cabs. He presented his findings to the head of antiquities in Cairo Egypt, who identified the chariot parts as those from the 18th dynasty.

Again these are small bits to the stories, but I can provide you with links and in-depth stories that elaborate on these and other Bible truths, if you care to read further.

Some of the findings do not necessarily provide 100% proof that these events occurred, they just show very very strong support for it. But for you to say that bible believers can show NO proof or rational explanation is FAR from being true.

And while we may not have reached the point where the biblical evidence is indisputable, neither do scientific theories provide you with infallible evidence, either. ( Although I am curious to hear your explanation as to any other way that chariot pieces from that period of time could have ended up at the very bottom and middle of the Sea). And it truly seems that the evidence provided shows more support for the biblical than the scientific. Unfortunately tho, there are always going to be skeptics of the Bible regardless of how much proof is shown because some people have already pre-determined what they will believe.

But for those who are looking for legitimacy to the Bible, they need not just look to the 'history' side of it and it try to match clues with it, but they may also look to the prophecy side of it and see how much of it's prophetic words have come true, and are unfolding as we speak.