sonsofwashington Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller Many people in the world, don't have the choice whether they want to be like us or not. So I suppose by default we just decide for them I sure as hell would not want another country coming into the United States and demanding that we change our lifestyle because they feel theirs is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike Oh you must be referring to the Kurds that George Bush's dad promised U.S. military support if they started an uprise against Saddam, then promptly turned his back on them and left them to get slaughtered by the weapons Rumsfield and the like sold to Saddam. Gee, why do the Iraqis have any reason not to trust our government? Horrible act on our part. No excuse for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by sonsofwashington So I suppose by default we just decide for them I sure as hell would not want another country coming into the United States and demanding that we change our lifestyle because they feel theirs is better. I know it's hard for libs to grasp this. But we're the good guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by NoCalMike Actually no, you are completely wrong, as the big picture is not set in stone yet. War Orphans make easy impressionable terrorist recruits. We won't know the big picture for about AT LEAST 20 years from now. If we won't know for 20 years, what makes YOU so convinced that YOU are right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller Lets see...on one hand you have Saddam. Saddam was a terrrorist to his own people. Invaded other countries. Killled Iraqis by the 1000's with chemical weapons. Etc. Etc. On the other hand you have a budding Democracy, where the Iraqi people for the first time in decades are deciding who their leaders will be. A constitution will be written. The Iraqi people will decide who their leaders are. Which one do you think is safer? Or are you a pessimist? In taking a conservative stance, why is this our problem? And in taking a liberal stance, are we going to attack North Korea, Iran, heck China anytime soon? They are in need of a regime change for the some of the same reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 I know it's hard for America hating libs to grasp this. But we're the good guys. America hating? that wasn't cool at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by sonsofwashington So I suppose by default we just decide for them I sure as hell would not want another country coming into the United States and demanding that we change our lifestyle because they feel theirs is better. Need I remind you, it's the Iraqis who are voting for their Parliament, not the Americans. It's the Iraqi assembly who will decide on a Constitution for Iraq. It's the Iraq people who will decide what form of government, they want to live under....and I gaurantee you this. It will be much closer to America's Democracy, then Saddams dictatorship. Atleast now, they can make that choice for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Bufford America hating? that wasn't cool at all. you're right, I editted it. Mea Culpa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 So you think he changed his ways? Who has he invaded since then, and even if he wanted to by what means? We killed so much of his army the first time around he was on Iraqi tv asking women to have more babies to repopulate his army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 you're right, I editted it. Mea Culpa. thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by KevinthePRF Who has he invaded since then, and even if he wanted to by what means? We killed so much of his army the first time around he was on Iraqi tv asking women to have more babies to repopulate his army. Since then he 1- Consistently attacked our aircraft 2- Ignored dozens of UN resolutions 3- Kicked out Weapons Inspectors 4- Funded Terrorist groups Do you REALLY think he wouldnt do anything ever again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller If we won't know for 20 years, what makes YOU so convinced that YOU are right? I didn't say I know I am right. In fact, I think eventually we will accomplish the goal in Iraq, I just think it is going to take a lot longer then the adminstration wants to admit, and I think the governments planning was horrible and not well thought out. And quite frankly I am tired of hearing "it's hard work" from Bush as an answer to everything when over a year ago he was on an aircraft carrier playing dressup and proclaming "mission accomplished" andthen turning on the cable news to hear "it is going fantastic in Iraq, couldn't be better" from Pundits. The government officials and the whitehouse already admit to underestimating the insurgents will to fight and the overall resistence, when there was plenty of people telling them beforehand what it would be like once Saddam was taken out and I personally feel it was a sh!tty thing to do to ARTIFICIALLY make Iraq the center of the war on terrorism by starting an occupation and having to put Iraqi civilians through the trauma of DRAWING TERRORISTS into their country where they weren't previously. IMO, we should have finished business in Afgantistan, then picked up the trail on other AL QAEDA/TALIBAN strongholds long before every worrying about transforming a country to democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted January 28, 2005 Author Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller Need I remind you, it's the Iraqis who are voting for their Parliament, not the Americans. It's the Iraqi assembly who will decide on a Constitution for Iraq. It's the Iraq people who will decide what form of government, they want to live under....and I gaurantee you this. It will be much closer to America's Democracy, then Saddams dictatorship. Atleast now, they can make that choice for themselves. And this upcoming "election" could lead to civil war in the near future. We just don't know yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsofwashington Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 0 Originally posted by Painkiller Lets see...on one hand you have Saddam. Saddam was a terrrorist to his own people. Invaded other countries. Killled Iraqis by the 1000's with chemical weapons. Etc. Etc. On the other hand you have a budding Democracy, where the Iraqi people for the first time in decades are deciding who their leaders will be. A constitution will be written. The Iraqi people will decide who their leaders are. Which one do you think is safer? Or are you a pessimist? I admit those are greats steps for Iraq. But how are our children safer? Does this mean that terrorism is dead? It's election time in Iraq. Tell me who feels safe right now? Not even our own soldiers feel safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by KevinthePRF In taking a conservative stance, why is this our problem? And in taking a liberal stance, are we going to attack North Korea, Iran, heck China anytime soon? They are in need of a regime change for the some of the same reasons. This is our problem because we have learned that we can't take growing threats lightly. History has repeatedly proved this fact time and time and time again. We can't sit around, and hope for the best anymore...if we are to learn anything from our past. Are we going to attack North Korea, China, and Iran? Probably not. I believe China will eventually switch to a democracy type government on it's on own. Continued U.S. relations with China will only help this to happen. North Korea? Containment. We didn't do enough to stop North Korea from building Nukes, so now our inaction (there is that old learning from your past mistakes thing popping up again) has upped the stakes considerably. Starving people will eventually become desperate, and probably a bloody revolution will occur. Iran on the other hand. I could definately see us invading Iran if they don't stop building their "peaceful" Nuclear Arsenal. Do you want a Nuclear Iran in the middle east? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsofwashington Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 I know it's hard for libs to grasp this. But we're the good guys. You cannot self proclaim yourself a good guy. I'm not saying were are bad guys, but we overrate ourselves a bit too much. We do execute our fair share of bad guy actions. I'm not an America hater, but I certainly don't take the stace where you are either 100% with me or 100% against me. It's stubborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Bad guy actions? Examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller This is our problem because we have learned that we can't take growing threats lightly. History has repeatedly proved this fact time and time and time again. We can't sit around, and hope for the best anymore...if we are to learn anything from our past. Are we going to attack North Korea, China, and Iran? Probably not. I believe China will eventually switch to a democracy type government on it's on own. Continued U.S. relations with China will only help this to happen. North Korea? Containment. We didn't do enough to stop North Korea from building Nukes, so now our inaction (there is that old learning from your past mistakes thing popping up again) has upped the stakes considerably. Starving people will eventually become desperate, and probably a bloody revolution will occur. Iran on the other hand. I could definately see us invading Iran if they don't stop building their "peaceful" Nuclear Arsenal. Do you want a Nuclear Iran in the middle east? Well I'll say this, your foreign policy on North Korea is something very close to what I would of advised for Iraq before the war. Because it involves the deaths of zero American lives instead of well over a 1000 and counting, and a fraction of US tax dollars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsofwashington Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Painkiller Need I remind you, it's the Iraqis who are voting for their Parliament, not the Americans. It's the Iraqi assembly who will decide on a Constitution for Iraq. It's the Iraq people who will decide what form of government, they want to live under....and I gaurantee you this. It will be much closer to America's Democracy, then Saddams dictatorship. Atleast now, they can make that choice for themselves. ...and democracy will live happily ever after in Iraq. Cmon, we underminded our intentions of creating a democracy in Iraq when we leveled the country with our bombs killing 100,000+ citizens. Very democratic of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 100k civilians? cmon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by sonsofwashington I admit those are greats steps for Iraq. But how are our children safer? Sons...our children are safer because a brutal, tyrannical, mad man is out of power. How can it be any more plain than that? Originally posted by sonsofwashington Does this mean that terrorism is dead? Of course not. Will terrorism ever truly be dead? No. You will always have crazy people, and you will always have people who don't like you, because your you...no matter what. However, does that mean we shouldn't fight? Should we just accept that a few casualties from car bombs, and a few crashed planes are just a "fact of life?" Of course not. Originally posted by sonsofwashington It's election time in Iraq. Tell me who feels safe right now? Not even our own soldiers feel safe. When their job is done, that's when I want our soldiers to feel safe. Feeling safe right now, might get them killed. They need to have their guard up. The Iraqis need to overcome their fears, and take control of their country. More Iraqis are dying then American soldiers. It's time for them to take their country back. I believe they will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 100k civilians? cmon. Right now it just depends on who you ask Kilmer: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/29/iraq.deaths/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonsofwashington Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Bad guy actions? Examples? :doh: You really DO think we are 100% the good guys. I think I now see the root of most of your problems. I'm not gonna pretend to know all the bad things the US does. I'd rather point them out as they come. I suppose this will undermine all I have stood for in this post, but I would rather answer your question comprehensively then get into a bickering match about good and bad. So, in time I will answer this question............and we'' probably disagree then too. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by sonsofwashington :doh: You really DO think we are 100% the good guys. I think I now see the root of most of your problems. I'm not gonna pretend to know all the bad things the US does. I'd rather point them out as they come. I suppose this will undermine all I have stood for in this post, but I would rather answer your question comprehensively then get into a bickering match about good and bad. So, in time I will answer this question............and we'' probably disagree then too. :laugh: I believe that 100 percent of our actions have good intentions behind them. I KNOW we've done more, are doing more, and will continue to do more good in the world than all other countries combined. In terms of money, defense, etc. The only thing you could argue against might be culture. Hollywood being what it is and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander PK Posted January 28, 2005 Share Posted January 28, 2005 Originally posted by sonsofwashington ...and democracy will live happily ever after in Iraq. Cmon, we underminded our intentions of creating a democracy in Iraq when we leveled the country with our bombs killing 100,000+ citizens. Very democratic of us. Saddam would have killed many more than that if left in power, just over a longer period of time. Civlian casualties occur in war. It can't be helped. Germany and Japan seem to have forgiven us. Why can't democracy live happily ever after in Iraq? The fact that you and I can sit here and debate at all, shows the greatness of democracy. Atleast here, guys won't show up at your door and cart you off to a prison, because you speak ill of Bush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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