Let the Military on Campus

[Larry]

BTW, I didn't explain my own position on this subject, earlier. (I know you were all disapointed).

There are so many reasons why they should have recruiters on campus that it isn't funny.

For one, they should be there so that the Professors don't look like, well, liberal elitist Professors, the next time somebody asks why they're teaching about the philosophy of the electron, and the Professor responds that college isn't about practicalities, it's about 'broadening exposures" or some such.

If having a gay pride parade is about broadening students' exposures, then why isn't having an Army recruiter?

Or, if you just want to think of a university as a job factory, then what's wrong with a job in the military? College graduates get to start as officers. How many private industry jobs give supervisory experience to entry-level employees? (I recall an observation in a book, about how different the world would be if the military and fast food weren't the only industries to actually train their own employees.)

Or how about just maybe teaching their students about how to interact with the lesser classes without looking down on them?

Yes, the military does have what I consider to be an unforgivable policy towards gays. But I'd also bet (based, admittedly, from no first-hand experience) that they're the least racially-segregated profession out there. Granted, it took a while, but the rule of "all one color: Green (or blue)" seems to have really taken hold.

And y'know, it you're just some yuppie wannabe who's in school to 'network' on your way to a corner office, and all you care about is the great Me: An honorable discharge and an officer's commission on your "ego wall" can count for a lot of brownie points in a lot of professions, too.

(Although, I'd suspect, if you view your military carrer with an attitude of being better than everybody else who's just on your way to someplace better, I'd bet your time will be educational, too.)

[Prosperity]

"By the way, I've got two degrees from outstanding schools. I speak from experience, not conjecture."

UVa doesn't count

[JoeSkins]

Originally posted by Liberty

"By the way, I've got two degrees from outstanding schools. I speak from experience, not conjecture."

UVa doesn't count

Dem's fightin words....:redpunch:

[Tarhog]

Nice post Larry. I think thats the primary issue and you have to wonder, what specifically IS it that they're so afraid of?

As for the gays in the military issue, I think that 'don't ask don't tell' policy is pretty weird myself. You either think its acceptable or you don't. I don't quite get the 'its okay if you're homosexual as long as you don't admit it' thing, at least as an institutional policy. I think it reflects a certain predominant sentiment among MOST heterosexual males, not just in the military, that we don't really care what an individual does, we just don't particularly want to see it or hear about it. When my young daughter starts having sex, I don't want to hear about that either, so I don't think its a particularly ominous or evil way to approach it.

What makes it so awkward in the military is that you potentially punish those who have the integrity to admit what they are, while those that 'hide' and 'lie' (and with institutional encouragement) are rewarded. Somethings inherently wrong with that.

Personally, I think the whole things overblown. Its hilarious in a sense, because I can assure you, unless you're in the Air Force and stationed in co-ed areas, VERY few folks in the military are having sex, of ANY kind. You become your own very close friend, or you are celibate to a large degree Sure I knew guys who preferred something other than what I preferred, and I didn't care. It wasn't an issue. As Stu said, having the opposite sex around would probably have been far far more destructive than non-hetero's could ever be.

And I do believe the military is the least racially divided corner of our society. Wonder how that fits into the whole belief that we're mindless conformists? You work alongside people of all types every day, people who are radically different, and yet you find, not that different. It just happens. There are still issues, but its not like what you see in 'open society'. College universities in stark contrast are the most segregated places in America in a lot of ways. People hang and organize with those that look like them. Some might call THAT conformist.

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by Liberty

"By the way, I've got two degrees from outstanding schools. I speak from experience, not conjecture."

UVa doesn't count

:laugh:

[du7st]

Originally posted by Tarhog

Thats just a total crock. No offense du7st, but you just don't know what you're talking about. Theres a huge difference between 'discipline' and 'command structure' and 'conformity'. Guys who join the military often do so because they've been unable to conform, not because they're conformist. You are so wrong about that. You walk up to any military guy and tell him he's a conformist (and I DO understand you don't intend it as an insult). They'll laugh in your face.

We are not on the same wavelength so let me try to clarify. I use the term conformity to define military protocol. Conformity is "action in accordance with some specified standard or authority." Soldiers must conform to create an army. As a soldier, you learn to conform. An army of pure individuals won't win many battles. This does not mean that soldiers, when they have time off duty, are not individuals. They are people just like anyone else. Now, why in the world would you think a large portion of university students would jump at the chance to go along that career path? University students have many more options than high school dropouts, so they are less likely to want to join the military then the latter. I don't see how the facts can be debated.

Originally posted by Tarhog

In a lot of ways, the military puts more power, responsibility and individual decision-making freedom in front of its youthful members than any other life decision they could make.

For some young people, the military is the perfect way for them to gain many life skills. It's not for everyone though. One group who is much less likely to yearn for this is elite university students.

Originally posted by Tarhog

And I'd also argue that most universities have an agenda, both administratively and in their curriculums and choice of staff that often stifles debate, and doesn't encourage it.

Agreed. The structure of mass education creates a certain level of conformity. When you mass people, they conform. My point was the elite universities do this less then any other mass education system I can think of. Feel free to fire back if you disagree still.

Originally posted by Tarhog

Do me a favor? Stand up in the middle of your next lecture class and tell the professor he's dead wrong and then try to explain why. See how much he or she urges on your 'individualism' and 'free thinking' mindset. It'll be a great life lesson for you.

I did something similar just yesterday. I met with a professor of mine to discuss a presentation grade. My presentation had better material, better diagrams, was longer, more original, and overall better then any other given all semester. After telling my professor that and insisting that anything less then an A was the wrong grade, he shot back with the oldest line in the book "life isn't fair." I already have professors that patronize me, I don't need it from you too.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Originally posted by Stu

I agree with you on that. My question is why the elite at these universities choose not to serve, especially the liberal elite?

What makes you think they don't? I have a fair number of friends who chose to serve. And many people choose ROTC as a way to pay the tuition.

[Larry]

I suspect, 'hog, that one reason for the cohesiveness in the military (at least, the one I imagine) is the military emphasis on mission. The system in which every action, from guarding a hospital to painting rocks, has a purpose. (It may be a stupid purpose, but . . )

Let's face it. In "real life", there are a lot of people in a lot of jobs where the mission is pretty vague. (And, in some cases, the stated mission is, in fact, the opposite of the actual mission.)

In case you can't tell, I suspect my life would be quite a bit better if I'd decided to join the military on the two occasions when I considered it. (In both cases, I allowed friends to talk me out of it.) (Although, I also have to admit, what I'm doing is comparing my reality against an imagined military. My brother, who was 'in' for a while, tells me that members of his unit stole from each other. So I may simply be full of it, too.)

[JoeSkins]

I have a friend who is in that same boat. He goes to George Washington, voted against Bush, and needs the money to pay for school. Politics doesn't always influence someone's choice to serve. You're absolutely right.

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by du7st

We are not on the same wavelength so let me try to clarify. I use the term conformity to define military protocol. Conformity is "action in accordance with some specified standard or authority." Soldiers must conform to create an army. As a soldier, you learn to conform. An army of pure individuals won't win many battles. This does not mean that soldiers, when they have time off duty, are not individuals. They are people just like anyone else. Now, why in the world would you think a large portion of university students would jump at the chance to go along that career path? University students have many more options than high school dropouts, so they are less likely to want to join the military then the latter. I don't see how the facts can be debated.

For some young people, the military is the perfect way for them to gain many life skills. It's not for everyone though. One group who is much less likely to yearn for this is elite university students.

Agreed. The structure of mass education creates a certain level of conformity. When you mass people, they conform. My point was the elite universities do this less then any other mass education system I can think of. Feel free to fire back if you disagree still.

I did something similar just yesterday. I met with a professor of mine to discuss a presentation grade. My presentation had better material, better diagrams, was longer, more original, and overall better then any other given all semester. After telling my professor that and insisting that anything less then an A was the wrong grade, he shot back with the oldest line in the book "life isn't fair." I already have professors that patronize me, I don't need it from you too.

I really wasn't trying to patronize you. You'll have to take my word on that.

I haven't argued that the reason recruiters should be allowed is because they'd find large #'s of college students eager to join up. Where I differ with you vehemently is your assumption that none of them would. You know why I'd vehemently disagree? Because I had a full ride at a top 25 school. 2 years in do you know what I did? I walked into a recruiting office and joined up. Gave up a cush scholarship, college women, and non-stop parties to sleep in the mud, walk long distances in horrible weather, and hang out with nothing but men for 5 years.

And honestly, your assumption that the military's made up of largely 'high school dropouts' is just plain ignorant. I'm NOT trying to be patronizing, but in this particular case, I know what I'm talking about, and you don't. Its that simple. There are lots and lots of college grads in the military, and guys from middle and upper class backgrounds. It ain't the Vietnam era, and your information is incorrect. I don't know how to say it any more politely than that. Sorry.

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by Larry

I suspect, 'hog, that one reason for the cohesiveness in the military (at least, the one I imagine) is the military emphasis on mission. The system in which every action, from guarding a hospital to painting rocks, has a purpose. (It may be a stupid purpose, but . . )

Let's face it. In "real life", there are a lot of people in a lot of jobs where the mission is pretty vague. (And, in some cases, the stated mission is, in fact, the opposite of the actual mission.)

In case you can't tell, I suspect my life would be quite a bit better if I'd decided to join the military on the two occasions when I considered it. (In both cases, I allowed friends to talk me out of it.) (Although, I also have to admit, what I'm doing is comparing my reality against an imagined military. My brother, who was 'in' for a while, tells me that members of his unit stole from each other. So I may simply be full of it, too.)

No one performs more pointless and patently stupid tasks than the United States military. Your instincts are dead-on (and theres not a trace of sarcasm here). When I served in the 8th Marine Regiment, their motto was (and still is) 'Doing what has to be done!'. We used to say it should be 'Doing what doesn't really NEED to be done, but that we're going to do anyway, and you'll damn well like it!'

There are many monikers for the USMC which also illustrate the point:

Uncle Sam's Misguided Children

U Signed My Contract

You get the feeling. Marines are only truly proud when they're home on liberty. The rest of the time is mostly spent ****ing. Thats a fact Its a source of great pride.

[Larry]

Originally posted by du7st

Now, why in the world would you think a large portion of university students would jump at the chance to go along that career path? University students have many more options than high school dropouts, so they are less likely to want to join the military then the latter. I don't see how the facts can be debated.

I'll debate them.

In my experience, a college degree is a great thing to have, to help get your first job.

But, after the first job or two, nobody cares about your degree any more. They care about your last job or two.

I would bet that, by the time most graduates are 30, their degree really doesn't affect their carrer that much. (My brother, for example, has spent the last 20 years as MIS director for various law firms, in several states. His degree from GMU is in Biology. He's never taken a computer class.)

OTOH, after you've been on the job for 30 years, being able to call your boss 'squid' (and therefore, remind him that you're in the same club) is still worth something.

Even if you ignore all the things that can be learned from a job like that, even if you only think of it in terms of "how much money will it put in my pocket", you can still claim that military service is the largest, most recognised fraternity in the US.

[Larry]

Originally posted by Tarhog

When I served in the 8th Marine Regiment, their motto was (and still is) 'Doing what has to be done!'. We used to say it should be 'Doing what doesn't really NEED to be done, but that we're going to do anyway, and you'll damn well like it!'

If you saw the movie Backdraft, there was a (real) sign in the firehouse, displaying the official motto of the Chicago Fire Department:

150 Years of Tradition, Unimpeded by Progress.

[du7st]

Originally posted by Tarhog

I haven't argued that the reason recruiters should be allowed is because they'd find large #'s of college students eager to join up. Where I differ with you vehemently is your assumption that none of them would. You know why I'd vehemently disagree? Because I had a full ride at a top 25 school. 2 years in do you know what I did? I walked into a recruiting office and joined up. Gave up a cush scholarship, college women, and non-stop parties to sleep in the mud, walk long distances in horrible weather, and hang out with nothing but men for 5 years.

When did I say none of them would? You aren't patronizing me now - you are just putting words into my mouth. Saying none and a small amount are very different things. Good for you for the decision you made. You seem to be happy with it so what do I care. I just don't see many others in a smiliar situation that went down the same path you did. If you can name a lot of people who were in your same situation and made the same decision, then I will consider my assumption wrong.

Originally posted by Tarhog

And honestly, your assumption that the military's made up of largely 'high school dropouts' is just plain ignorant.

Again, I never said it. The words in the mouth thing. I'll follow up at the bottom.

Originally posted by Tarhog

I'm NOT trying to be patronizing, but in this particular case, I know what I'm talking about, and you don't. Its that simple. There are lots and lots of college grads in the military, and guys from middle and upper class backgrounds. It ain't the Vietnam era, and your information is incorrect. I don't know how to say it any more politely than that. Sorry.

I know there are a lot of college grads in the military. The military helps pay for college so its pretty obvious that that would be the case. However, I bet more often then not, those military people with college degrees joined the military before they graduated then after. That is the whole point of having the military pay for college and its a great program for those who couldn't go otherwise.

Going back to the high school dropout comment, I mentioned high school drop outs because they have very little opportunity. More correctly I should have said high school grads and GED holders as I figure its probably still difficult to join the military after dropping out. Do you think IBM or Goldman Sacs will hire them? Well they won't but the military might. The prime military recruiting population is high school grads in financial need, not current college students. I guess universities could let military recruit on their campus if they wanted to but you shouldn't force a private organization to allow it.

[Tarhog]

You said: University students have many more options than high school dropouts, so they are less likely to want to join the military then the latter. I don't see how the facts can be debated.

That statement is pretty clear. You believe that the majority of those who join the military do so because they have no other options. I don't think I'm reading into anything here, I believe thats exactly what you believe.

There ARE lots of guys like me in the military. And theres nothing especially admirable about it. I'd never argue there is. Its a life choice like a lot of other life choices. So why shouldn't those attending college have the opportunity to hear about the military, and whats public or private got to do with it? What 'right' do private corporations and businesses have to advertise their firms at a university that supercedes a branch of the US military? Why does the military deserve special rules and restrictions? I'll tell you why. Because leaders and senior decision-makers at US universities don't LIKE the military. They don't understand it. They don't appreciate it. They generally know nothing about it. Many of them loathe it. Perhaps if they had the opportunity to speak to representatives of the military in person, they might have a more enlightened (one might even say an 'educated') perspective.

And you, again through no fault of your own (you can't help that you know nothing about which you now speak), you miss the mark. The military is made up of 10's of thousands of college graduates. They are non-commissioned and commissioned officers. Most of them possess their degrees before entering the military. Some complete it while enlisted. They're not all privates seeking their GED.

Again, sorry to pummel you, but its not my fault you keep posting. And continue not to know what you are talking about.

[luckydevil]

When was the last time youve meet a radical guerilla who want to overthrow the " Rich" in this country or destory the system?

I work with one, self-proclaimed communist( really cool guy might I add). I have encountered many on campus.

Phishhead on this board is a fairly radical leftist.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Ancalagon the Black

What makes you think they don't? I have a fair number of friends who chose to serve. And many people choose ROTC as a way to pay the tuition.

Some do but I think most don't. While anecdotal, I can probably count the number of liberals I have met in the military on my two hands. Same can be said for Harvard, Yale, etc. grads.

I chose ROTC but the overwhelming percentage of folks with me were conservatives.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Tarhog

You get the feeling. Marines are only truly proud when they're home on liberty. The rest of the time is mostly spent ****ing. Thats a fact Its a source of great pride.

Reminds me of our version:

A ****ing Sailor is a happy Sailor.

[Stu]

Originally posted by Tarhog

You said: University students have many more options than high school dropouts, so they are less likely to want to join the military then the latter. I don't see how the facts can be debated.

That statement is pretty clear. You believe that the majority of those who join the military do so because they have no other options. I don't think I'm reading into anything here, I believe thats exactly what you believe.

There ARE lots of guys like me in the military. And theres nothing especially admirable about it. I'd never argue there is. Its a life choice like a lot of other life choices. So why shouldn't those attending college have the opportunity to hear about the military, and whats public or private got to do with it? What 'right' do private corporations and businesses have to advertise their firms at a university that supercedes a branch of the US military? Why does the military deserve special rules and restrictions? I'll tell you why. Because leaders and senior decision-makers at US universities don't LIKE the military. They don't understand it. They don't appreciate it. They generally know nothing about it. Many of them loathe it. Perhaps if they had the opportunity to speak to representatives of the military in person, they might have a more enlightened (one might even say an 'educated') perspective.

And you, again through no fault of your own (you can't help that you know nothing about which you now speak), you miss the mark. The military is made up of 10's of thousands of college graduates. They are non-commissioned and commissioned officers. Most of them possess their degrees before entering the military. Some complete it while enlisted. They're not all privates seeking their GED.

Again, sorry to pummel you, but its not my fault you keep posting. And continue not to know what you are talking about.

What he said. And then repeat it again.

Also, not much mention of a little thing called "service". I respect that some of my left wing brethren want to serve via the PeaceCorps or Americorps. Accordingly, I would think they would understand the similar call for many others via our military. It's not always about job opportunities and money.

Besides, in a battle of wits I would put one of my Sailors up against a college kid anyday. He'd win the girl and take the college kid's lunch money to boot.

(Apologize for the triple post. Just got back from a show with my better half.)

[du7st]

Originally posted by Tarhog

That statement is pretty clear. You believe that the majority of those who join the military do so because they have no other options. I don't think I'm reading into anything here, I believe thats exactly what you believe.

And you, again through no fault of your own (you can't help that you know nothing about which you now speak), you miss the mark. The military is made up of 10's of thousands of college graduates. They are non-commissioned and commissioned officers. Most of them possess their degrees before entering the military. Some complete it while enlisted. They're not all privates seeking their GED.

There are many college graduates in the military. I get it. I think the facts still point towards the military targeting lower income kids with few prospects after high school. I am sure you are familiar with JROTC so maybe you can shed some light on some of the following information....

Approximately 310,000 students, ages 14 and up, participate in about 2,200 high schools nationwide. JROTC's funding has expanded by more than 80 million dollars since 1992; the number of units is expected to reach 2900 by 1996.

Fifty-four percent of JROTC participants nationwide are students of color.

There are currently 716 schools waiting for approval of JROTC programs.

45 percent of all cadets who successfully complete JROTC enter some branch of the service

The military is still disproportionately run by white people with people of color filling the lower ranks--32 percent of enlisted members are people of color, compared to only 13 percent of officers.

It is hard to find concrete income stats so the above collection is just based on race (though we are all familiar with the race v. income trends in this country). I went to the US Army ROTC website and found the following listing of schools in New Jersey that have programs...

Atco

Berkeley Heights

Burlington

Camden

Camden

Camden

Franklinville

Hillside

Irvington

Jersey City

Jersey City

Lakewood

Medford

New Brunswick

Newark

Newark

Patterson

Pemberton

Pleasantville

Riverside

Trenton

Union

I picked NJ cuz I know the area best. For those that don't - these are a pretty good list of your ghetto neighborhoods of NJ. I don't see any Princetons or West Windsors or Ridgewoods in here. My old high school was predominately middle class kids but is located near some rougher neighborhoods. There is a reason the military recruiters spent less time at my high school then the ones closer to Trenton - they knew where they were more likely to get new recruits.

[jpillian]

Just a point to throw in here to counter the whole "who wants to join the military but high school drop outs" train of thoughts: the military academies (West Point, Annapolis, and Air Force) are generally considered some of the most selective institutions of higher education in the country. Where does that fall into the equation?

[Tarhog]

Du7st,

Go to a JROTC unit. Take a close look. In many instances, its black former military men and women that are running these units. Its considered cool to these kids, not some act of desperation, to be a part of a JROTC unit. They learn complex drill and marching manuevers, compete in competitions all over the country, its a huge phenomenon in many places across America. Theres nothing about it thats pertinent to this conversation.

Theres no doubt that there are more whites in leadership and officer positions than blacks in the military. Thats also true of the American collegiate system, almost every medical and law school in America, and across society as a whole. If theres inequity there, its an American inequity, not a military one. IF you knew ANYTHING about the US military you'd know that its one of the most level playing fields racially you'll find anywhere. Its not perfect, but opportunity in the military is largely based on merit.

I'm not really sure what your point is, other than that there are a lot of JROTC units across America. I'll concede that.

If you really truly want to find out for yourself whether I'm right or you're right, theres really only one way I'll be glad to write you a recommendation and give you directions to the recruiting office nearest you.

[Stu]

Originally posted by du7st

There are many college graduates in the military. I get it. I think the facts still point towards the military targeting lower income kids with few prospects after high school. I am sure you are familiar with JROTC so maybe you can shed some light on some of the following information....etc

The schools and communities ask for JROTC units because they are seen as a positive influence in troubled neighborhoods. The recruiters go the JROTC units because it is somewhate fertile ground since the kids are familiar with the military and the JROTC kids get some entry benefits when entering the service that can be used as a small incentive.

Hey jpillian...

GO NAVY, BEAT ARMY!

[du7st]

Originally posted by Tarhog

I'll be glad to write you a recommendation and give you directions to the recruiting office nearest you.

How about you write me a recommendation for the air national guard when the draft is brought back

[gbrittain]

I speak from a little bit of experience here. I was a Captain in the Army, but I have been a civilian for about six months now.

The recruiters at the universities are not targeting the same people they would target at the local highschool.

The Army when on Campus is looking for JAG officers, nurses, doctors, and future leaders.

Some are trying to compare apples to oranges.

It is not a good idea to recruit at major universities it is a necessity. West Point alone can not staff all the doctors, lawyers, leaders, nurses, engineers and etc that it takes to run a highly efficient Army.