Thoughts on QB

[Hog Fever]

I had a few football thoughts and concerns that I wanted to run by everyone. Most of these “observations” depend on certain things happening but I’m not trying to be Miss Cleo is anything. I realize too that the twists and turns of the season may make some of my observations way off target.

Let’s look at this scenario for a minute: The end of the 01 season, and the Skins have finished .500. I have to think that unless a small miracle happens George is going to be on the first bus out of town come the end of the season. Tony Banks had taken over at starting QB after game 3 and has shown flashes of great play. The great play at times has been offset by poor decision making and inconsistency at times too. He has not established himself as the future.

Ok, if we assume that scenario, what next? The QB to go with can make or break a franchise for years. You don’t have to look any farther than Pittsburgh for an example of what I’m talking about.

This season may reveal Banks to be the man, but what if he follows the pattern he has through his whole career? Do we look to free agency? Who would even be available? Would we be back to looking at Dilfer and Ferrotte as the answer? The draft would be a possible but we will have the pressing concerns of the D line to address at as well. If we draft our starting QB it’s safe to say that the franchise is going to be set back a few years. Would the risk of drafting our new starter be worth it, or do we hand the keys to Sage?

I’m not giving up on the season or anything. Hell, I’m still very positive about the season in a lot of ways. I’m just can’t help but think about the future of our Skins. The most important spot on the field is QB and that seems to be where the future looks so cloudy.

Thoughts?

[Art]

I think it would be great if we could single George out and say, "It was his fault," in the opener. But, we can't. Banks came in and did nothing himself. The problem in the opener went far deeper than the quarterback. George can be successful in this league as he has been. Davis can be successful in this league as he has been. Westbrook can be successful in this league as he has been. Alexander can be successful in this league as he has been.

In a game in which the offensive line played very well, and certainly far above all pre-game thoughts, I wish it were so easy to blame George. It isn't though. George didn't lose the game. I don't think you put this game on him. To me, it's a combination of offensive coaching and skill position disappearances. It's too early to know if the problem was solely coaching or solely the players. We won't know that for a little while with this staff and group of players.

The encouraging aspects of the game were there though. If the defense plays generally that hard and creates that many turnovers, we'll be ok. If every offensive skill player disappears again, we won't. I don't think anyone really expected quite THAT bad an offensive game. From game plan to performance. It was awful.

To me, it was far more by design than by player ability because absolutely NOTHING we did had anyone open. No receiver was even mildly uncovered on any play. To me, that's a sign the other team is just outsmarting us, or our game plan is so unimaginative, they had no problem keeping people in position to stop us.

The San Diego offense was hardly dominating, but, it certainly had plays where guys were actually running free. Short plays, granted, but, some plays nonetheless. The person I'll be watching most this game is Raye. HE is the one that I haven't seen enough to say he can perform in this league as he has. KC hasn't had great offenses. Last year, by sheer volume of passes, it was ranked well, but, none of us has seen nearly enough of the Chiefs to know whether his game plans are generally innovative or generally bland.

In the opener, the game plan was neither. It was confused in my view. Nothing was established. No plays were built of others. It was a lot like a blind guy throwing darts at a playbook and picking plays based on that. Good offense doesn't have to be complicated. It simply has to establish an identity and force the defense to be alert for what can come of any particular formation build.

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Doom is in the box.

[bulldog]

Marty has had some pretty good quarterbacks in his coaching career in Kosar, DeBerg, Montana and Gannon. All of those players were very competitive and showed a love for the game.

Neither George or Banks evinces those qualities. So I agree I don't think they will be back.

At the same time it is VERY difficult to judge who will be available next offseason. Which players are going to get hurt and have others step up and replace them?

Certainly, the Saints by going with Aaron Brooks have signalled that Jeff Blake is likely gone in 2002.

Will Steve Beuerlein come back this season to play for Denver or is he done? Certainly either Steve or Frerotte will be let go after the season is over.

Do we want any of these players? Probably not. Beuerlein is competitive and a good leader on the field but at 37 is busted up after years playing behind a poor line in Carolina.

Blake will be 32 and has also had a history of injuries.

Frerotte is 29 but is clearly a better #2 than #1.

But as I said others will come available. Is Charlie Batch done in Detroit? Does he have any talent or was the decision to bench him a signal he doesn't get along with the new management in Detroit?

What about the situation in Tampa? With Brad Johnson on the team and Joey Hamilton showing some promise, what happens to Shaun King?

I think in a better offensive system with a power running attack and a downfield threat King at 25 could still be an effective player in the NFL.

I am sure he is seething about Johnson being brought in and being given all that money after winning less games in both 2000 and 1999 than King did.

We'll have to wait and see. I think some guys will be available.

Of course the draft is another option, but I don't see any sure fire guys coming out this year that are worth investing 2 or 3 years of rebuilding in.

[Bucs92]

Artie,

This "design" over "player ability" blame game has limits......You all yap about how talented Westbrook is, although there is no data after 7 years to support this claim. He is big and fast and runs good routes and has sure hands, but is never open. Yet, Randy Moss, who is doubled on every route, seems to be running free several times a game deep in the opponents secondary.

Regardless of the design, Westbrook should be beating his man and getting open. WHERE WAS HE LAST WEEK?

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The Truth shall set you free.

[Art]

Ru,

Westbrook has had a single year superior to any Keyshawn has had. So, that would, by the necessity of the factual nature of the statement, render your observation false. However, it's certainly fair to raise questions about his performance in the opener. Randy Moss is a unique talent, and he was held to one catch in his opener. While Westbrook is not Moss, I think it's fair to indicate that sometimes people just don't produce. In Westbrook's case, he has failed to produce for injury reasons for the most part, and when healthy, he's generally been productive.

The opener against the Chargers he wasn't. In years past, he'd be very open despite consisten double teaming, but we either didn't have the quarterback capable of consistently hitting him, or the offense required to challenge such doubles. As I have said, I think it's hard to say what was the greatest failure in the opener. Whether it was the coaching staff on the offensive side or the skill players who uniformly failed totally is something we can't really know for another week or two.

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Doom is in the box.

[bulldog]

Bucs92, I am sure Westbrook appreciates your characterization of his abilities, except if you watched any games at all you would realize that Michael does not run consistently good routes nor does he have reliable hands.

That in fact is the major complaint with our graceful gazelle #82

[Bucs92]

Artie, you are the master of making a specious statement so you can follow it with a perjorative one..........But this KJ/ Westbrook comparison is unusually moronic, even for you....on what dimension was Westbrook's 1999 season better than any Keyshawn had? Let's look at the facts for a change.

1) Westie has caught 65 balls once, and never more than 44 beyond that. KJ has two 80+ catch seasons and only one season (rookie) with less than 65 catches (63)

2) Westie has scored 20 TDs in 7 seasons. KJ has scored 39 TDs in 6 seasons.......the name of the game is points Artie. Westie caught 9 TDs in 1999. KJ has a 10 TD season.

3) Westbrook had 1191 yds receiving in 1999. KJ has TWO 1100 yd + seasons......

4) There is not one GM or sane person that would trade KJ for Westbrook straight-up.

I love ya Artie, but picking you to pieces gets rather boring over time.

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The Truth shall set you free.

[Art]

Yawn Ru.

Fact, Westbrook has had a single season superior to anything ever by Keyshawn. That was the statement. It is also a fact that Keyshawn has had a better career than Westbrook. Largely due to Westbrook's propensity to be injured, but, nonetheless, the statements above are precisely true. And because Westbrook has had a season superior to ANYTING by Keyshawn, who we know you find very good, it negates your statement that Westbrook has nothing to show in his seven seasons.

I hope to help you make more reasoned thoughtful comments by pointing out the factual weakness in your comments. You should thank me, especially when it's done in a fairly polite way and the conversation was earnest. You are welcome.

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Doom is in the box.

[Bucs92]

vomit........Artie......the emperor as usual, has crushed me....you don't even belittle my argument, yet you still beat me.....Oh Lord, I'm engaged in a battle of wits with a man who has them! I DON'T STAND A CHANCE.

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The Truth shall set you free.

[ by Art on September 17, 2001.]

[NavyDave]

Well said Bucs92.

It never pays to get into a Battle of wits unarmed epecially against Art

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Take a sip of the Marty Kool Aid and Believe

[Bucs92]

Artie resorting to his little tricks

But, you have to understand why he edited my post. Because he's right. It's true, I can admit it, that Westbrook has had a single season better than any single season Keyshawn has ever had. That's not something I can argue with, because it's precisely true.

I tried to argue it with historical numbers, and Art indicated I was right that Keyshawn has had a better career, but, I was so mad I came in and tried to fight back without admitting the point he had against me. Now I will.

Art, my bad for being a fool. I know I said Westbrook has done nothing in seven years, but, when you point out that he's done more than Keyshawn in any single year, that makes me seem awfully limited. You're right again.

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The Truth shall set you free.

[ by Art on September 18, 2001.]

[TennesseeCarl]

Given the events of the past week, it's almost a pleasure to see you guys at it again. It must signal some 'return to normalcy'.

If you watched the Skins game on Fox, you probably never saw Westbrook as their camera work was pretty odd. In terms of results, however, Westbrook once again came up short. He's never been a game breaker and never will be. But he ain't chopped liver.

It's really troubling though that Alex Molden, who was reportedly having trouble in preseason holding on to the starting job, just shut down our #1. Westbrook's pattern (and I'm struggling to find anything positive) is that he disappears for a while and breaks out with a big game. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be vs. the Packers.

[Bucs92]

Artie:

Gather up your crayons hoss......you're a snooze today.

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The Truth shall set you free.

[Art]

Ok Ru. I'll do that. I'll gather my crayons, and you keep playing with your gifs. We'll both be children, but, at least I'll continue saying the right thing and you'll continue on in the Special Education Classes .

BTW, scroll down and answer my question on War Bonds, will ya?

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Doom is in the box.

[Bucs92]

Artie,

I tend to fall asleep during your meaningless diatribes.....I generally read the first sentence, which almost always says something stupid like Westbrook has had a season superior to any Keyshawn has had, and then I remember again, that you, my friend, couldn't spell cat if I spotted you the c and the t.

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The Truth shall set you free.

[bulldog]

this argument is silly. Neither Westbrook nor Keyshawn has lived up to their draft status as top 5 picks.

Players such as Jerry Rice (#15) and Art Monk (#18) accomplished a lot more while coming out of school with far less fanfare.

Neither Westbrook nor Johnson has shown up with outsized numbers in a playoff game or shown the ability to produce in the clutch in a primetime situation.

The edge has to go to Keyshawn because he has been a more productive player over time, but even his stats pale in comparison to the Randy Moss and Cris Carters in his own division.

Let's face it. The Bucs scored 10 points on a Dallas defense that was dead last against the rush last year. The Redskins scored 3 points against a SD team that was 1-15.

Both teams showed in week 1 that neither is a legitimate contender at this point.

Maybe the Bucs will ramp it up and start to perform, maybe not.

But the team has a LONG way to go to backup what motormouth Warren Sapp has been predicting as a season of destiny.

[wildbill]

Man is it good to see you guys at it again.But more importantly I would like to see the skins at again. There has to be more than what I saw week 1.That game left me with the same horrible taste in my mouth that i had last season.

Like I said in a previous thread this team needs an all around break out game in order to believe in what they have been working for.

Is it just me or has Big Daddy been in the news alot more lately?

There hasn't been much national news to speak about, is ther anything local?

HTTUS

[@DCGoldPants]

And the sickest part is that people think at one time Keyshawn was elite yet his 1999 numbers are better than most to Keyshawns in his best year....yet....Westbroke is still a bum.

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[Art]

Bulldog, my brother, I hope you don't think I've stated Westbrook has lived up to his draft status. That's a point impossible to make. I merely argued that he's had a season as a whole better than anything ever produced by Keyshawn. I'm no big fan of Keyshawn either, but, Bucs92 seems to think he's elite or at least good, so that would limit the stance against Westbrook in this case when saying he's done nothing in seven years.

Certainly Westbrook is not an elite receiver and he didn't help the team in a game he was totally healthy in during the opener. This is a bad sign for us because a great deal of our offensive capacity lies in Westbrook making a difference. He does tend to be up and down, so, if the opener was down, we all can hope together that the Packer game will be up. .

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Doom is in the box.

[TheKurp]

Here's the really sad part of this thread. Hog Fever wonders, as I have, what do the Redskins have to look forward to in terms of available quarterbacks next year? The turn this thread has taken away from Hog Fever's original question leaves me with the sinking feeling that there IS NO legitimate GOOD quarterback we can expect to acquire next year. Given that, along with Schottenheimer setting expectations by stating that getting to the Super Bowl is achievable, why doesn't Marty get his head out of his *** and play with the cards he's been dealt? It's obvious from the offense's anemic performance in both the preseason and against San Diego that the Redskins' skills don't fit with the West Coast Offense. I mean if there's nothing better to look forward to than Jeff George at QB, then why isn't the offense tailored around his strengths? Why is Marty insistent in plugging a square peg into a round hole? Why not look at the offenses that George excelled in and try to formulate a game plan that accentuates his talents? I don't know, if things don't start to improve I'm going to be sitting right alongside of Fred Dresner in calling for Marty's head.

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"The Kurp"

[Bucs92]

Ok Artie.......I thought not even you were this myopically stupid, but your Afghanistan thread etched that in stone. Listen to the facts sport on Westbrook and KJ:

1) Receptions: West had 65 in '99, Keyshawn had 89 in '99 and 83 in '98 and has AVERAGED 78 per year in his career.

2) TDs: West had 9 in '99. KJ had 10 in '98 and has 39 TDs in his career vs 20 for Westie.

3) Yds: West had 1191 in '99. Keyshawn had comparable years in '99 (1170) and in '98 (1131) and has AVERAGED 1024 yds per season in his career.

In fact, Westbrooks best season.....65, 1191, 9 doesn't even compare favorabley to KJ's AVERAGE season 78, 1024, 8.........

Keyshawn's years in '98 (83, 1131, 10) and in '99 (89, 1170, 8) both compare favorably to Westbrook's '99 season.

I won't even get into catches for first downs or blocking downfield........glad you love Westbrook Artie......I just can't wait to see him light up the scoreboard this year......

PS He's already 6 catches behind KJ.

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The Truth shall set you free.

[Bucs92]

Kurp and Artie,

By the way Artie, Westie caught all those balls in '99 when he had a real QB throwing to him. The reason you are so f*cked at QB for the future should be laid at Snyder's door. The George signing spelled disaster at QB for this team. The unwillingness to sign a decent veteran back-up was the second mistake.

I realize Art, that this is tough on you, as once again another of your grand predictions bites the dust. George is the right QB for this team? Remember the intolerable number of times you made that ridiculous statement?

Artie, this just ain't your year babe......back under the rock.

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The Truth shall set you free.

[TheKurp]

Bucs92,

I can't speak with authority on Johnson's blocking ability but this is actually one area in which Westbrook excels (when he's not injured). Stephen Davis (ironically given their much publicized brouhaha) owes a number of his long runs and tds to Westbrook's blocking.

Again though, I can't run you a comparison between Johnson and Westbrook cause I don't much like the Bucs (despite the fact that I live in Central Florida).

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"The Kurp"

[bulldog]

why not just end the discussion by saying that Keyshawn and Westbrook are two players that will never be as productive as a guy like Torry Holt or Randy Moss, despite the physical talent and money that is showered on them?

Because that is the truth. And frankly (to borrow Marty's favorite word), I think we all know that.

[Bucs92]

Kurp.......a Central Florida boy not liking the Bucs? You must be a transplant or a Fish fan.

Can't end the argument that way. Keyshawn is a very productive receiver who has been to 2 Pro Bowls. Westbrook has been a loser (Hmmm....good pairing with George after all) with one decent season in 7.......big difference.

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The Truth shall set you free.