Sarge Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=843 Palestinians Parade Israeli Soldiers’ Remains DEBKAfile Special Analysis May 11, 2004, 11:00 PM (GMT+02:00) Six Israeli counter-terror troops perish in fireball over Gaza Six Israeli members of the Givati infantry brigade’s engineers platoon were killed Tuesday, May 11 when their armored personnel carrier was blown up by a roadside bomb at the end of an operation to demolish rockets and arms manufacturing facilities in Gaza City’s Zeitoun district. The bomb detonated the 130 kilos of explosives in the Israeli vehicle. Masked Islamic Jihad and Hamas gunmen snatched the fragmented bodies, paraded them through Gaza streets, firing off victory salvos, and then announced they were open for negotiation for their return. Israeli troop reinforcements thereupon streamed into the city and began house to house searches for their comrades’ remains, announcing they would stay until they were recovered. The Red Cross was instructed to demand the bodies of the fallen men. The atrocity Israel and its servicemen confronted that day in Gaza City cannot be divorced from previous deadly events: 1. After four Americans were lynched and mutilated in the Iraqi Sunni Triangle town of Fallujah on March 31, the US Marines backed off and withdrew to siege positions on the city’s perimeter without taking custody of the killers. The Baathists and al Qaeda forces left unscathed chalked up a victory that gave the rest of the Middle East an example of how to get away with vicious atrocities. 2. Another example came from the Palestinians themselves. They have still not brought to trial the real killers of three CIA security men who died on October 15, 2003 in a powerful Palestinian roadside bomb blast similar to the device that slew the six Givati sappers Tuesday. IN an effort to lay hands on the terrorists, Washington has since tried threats, ultimatums and money prizes - to no avail. 3. Yasser Arafat has further radicalized the Palestinian movement and boosted its most extremist fringes by two new directives: one, to integrate the Hamas into his PLO and give it equal status to all the other factions of the umbrella organization; two, to place hardline Farouk Kaddumi, the Damascus-based Palestinian foreign relations executive, in charge of operational collaboration with Iran and Hizballah. According to DEBKAfile’s Middle East sources, Iranian Revolutionary Guards are in and out of Kaddumi’s office to the point that Palestinian visitors are crowded out. Arafat has also initiated merger negotiations between the PLO amd the rejectionist Palestinian groups working out of Syria and Jordan, a move that will hold back any Palestinian group from entering into talks with Israel. 4. Israeli prime minister Ariel Sharon’s amorphous disengagement initiative that planted in Gazan Palestinian minds - Hamas included - that Israel was shortly on its way out of the territory. Palestinian terrorists decided to speed Israel’s exit with fire, blood and gruesome atrocity. They were not dismayed by the inner cabinet session called by Sharon for the evening of May 11. On June 1, 2001, after 22 young Israelis were murdered and more than 100 maimed by the terrible bombing attack on the Tel Aviv Dolphinarium night spot, Sharon’s inner cabinet sat for 24 hours and did nothing. Hamas decided therefore to jump ahead with two moves: A. Just as the Iraqi guerrillas and their terrorist allies in Fallujah gathered the body parts of four murdered Americans and strung them up over a bridge, so too did Palestinian terrorists take possession of the remains of the six dead Israeli soldiers. They decided to use the body parts as “hostages” to ward off an allout Israeli offensive against Gaza Strip Palestinians and, at a later stage, as chips for extorting concessions, such as the release of Palestinian prisoners. B. All the Palestinian groups sent heavy forces to Zeitoun both to hamper the Israeli troops’ search for remains and hold them back from spreading out to other parts of Gaza where they have hidden the Israeli bodies. This presented Sharon’s cabinet with a fait accompli before it convened. The alternatives facing the cabinet are cruel. Massive Israeli forces could find themselves trapped in hand-to-hand combat in Gaza City alleys, costly in casualties - as Hamas may have intended – failing which, to leave the bodies of Israeli servicemen in the hands of the terrorists. The chief of staff, Lt.- Gen. Moshe Yaalon opted for the midway course: to comb the Zeitoun district house by house, after ruling out negotiations. It stands to reason however that the objects of their search have been removed for safe hiding to other parts of Gaza City. The tragic events of this Tuesday refuted a key element of Sharon’s disengagement plan which was to deploy Israeli forces on the perimeter of the Gaza Strip to protect southern Israel. Incursions would be staged from time to time to keep the terrorists in check. The Battle of Zeitoun has proved this tactic to be worthless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 A really REALLY big can of Raid is what's needed. Sorry, I think that even Germany during the 30s had a smaller percentage of outright genocidal maniacs. And you know what the Allies did to Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn X Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 No, no, no, Israel is supposed to negotiate with these people, not destroy them! Israel has at its disposal the military capacity to wipe out every Palestinian man, woman, and child, and yet it does not do so. But does anyone doubt that if Arafat had such power at his fingertips that he wouldn't hesitate for even one second to pound the "dirty Jews" into dust? (Addendum: anyone with his/her head screwed on straight, I mean.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section 130 Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 "nuke em, its the only way to be sure". Hicks - Aliens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Israel has changed PM's and efforts over and over. Arafat hasn't changed at all. These are the people and relatives of those who decided to attack when Israel became a nation over 50 years ago.....and lost. They are the very picture of losers and now they want these people to give them land? If places like Egypt and Jordan are on their side....then give them a nice chunk of your country. it won't happen. Deep down, nobody in that region likes The Palestinians.....they just used their "cause" for a face on their own issues with Israel. Got a problem with Israel? Then try something.....you'll only lose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 The Palestinian leader had to escape Egypt dressed as a woman? Jordan and other countries would never allow him in there? Why? because he threatens ANY government... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Originally posted by Bufford 3.0 Israel has changed PM's and efforts over and over. Arafat hasn't changed at all. These are the people and relatives of those who decided to attack when Israel became a nation over 50 years ago.....and lost. They are the very picture of losers and now they want these people to give them land? If places like Egypt and Jordan are on their side....then give them a nice chunk of your country. it won't happen. Deep down, nobody in that region likes The Palestinians.....they just used their "cause" for a face on their own issues with Israel. Got a problem with Israel? Then try something.....you'll only lose. Bufford, I know we disagree sometimes, but you are spot on in this case. We forget that initially, Israel was backed by the Soviet Union, but eventually the USSR turned its back on them and began to propagate the most vicious Nazi-like propaganda. We also forget the role of Himmler, the Nazis and the old Mufti of Jerusalem in fomenting anti-Jewish hatred and violence BEFORE ISRAEL EVEN EXISTED. Or that the Palies and groups like Hezbollah use the Nazi salute and praise Hitler. Or that arabs left the area, not under coercion but because they were assured the Jewish state would be destroyed. And that Jews were expelled in 1948 from the Arab states. Will they TOO get land and a state within the Arab nations? LOL Also, what happened to the millions of Eastern Christians? besides the ones that had to come to the US or other nations in the West to avoid oppression, I mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 yep, we're talking about people who send women and children to blow up buses full of non-military folks. Israel is going to win this one.....the Palestinians are shambles. No organization...no really long term vision and ever year they continue the do this...the rest of the world and even the region they live in....just gets further and further beyond them. This isn't something new...this is decades of madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OURYEAR#56 Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Its a bad example of adults acting like children. What positive out come could the Palies get from something like this? Is their thirst for revenge this maniac? See I can see where they are coming from in some ways. But they have examples of oppressed people not resorting to violence to gain a sense of equality. Sorry fellas, the Palies are oppressed. Their refugees in their own country. Why was Isreal devided from the rest of the Middle East in the first place? Was it a neccessary evil? CAn somebody please shed some light on the true nature behind this situation? Here are my questions and maybe one of you can answer them: First, why was Isreal segmented from the rest of the Middle East? Was the original blue print for Isreal like say the same idealogy behing 40 acres and a mule? Second, is there any effort behind making a Palestinian state that has equal resources of Isreal? Is America truly commited to setting up the Palestinians? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 You give the Palestinians any amount of power and their own country.....they will turn around and use whatever military they have to attack Israel within 1 year. I promise you that. I almost hope they do it.....so Israel and their allies can have a real Gov't to fight against and not a state sponsered Hamas childen with a bomb strapped to his ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 it won't happen. Deep down, nobody in that region likes The Palestinians.....they just used their "cause" for a face on their own issues with Israel. Bingo!!! The Terroristinians are the scurge of the Arab world. No bordering country wants their refugees or to provide them with land in which to build a state. Doing so would be like inviting a trojan horse into your compound. The only solution would be to give them only what Israel is willing to give up... then declare to the world.... "this is what you have... attempt to take anymore and you will DIE." No nonsense... kill every last one of the resistance if they over step their bounds. The rest of the Arab world could care less about the plight of the Terroristinians. They feign support for a share of the world spotlight . Their hatred in the Jews is the only thing they have in common. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Originally posted by Bufford 3.0 You give the Palestinians any amount of power and their own country.....they will turn around and use whatever military they have to attack Israel within 1 year. I promise you that. I almost hope they do it.....so Israel and their allies can have a real Gov't to fight against and not a state sponsered Hamas childen with a bomb strapped to his ass. Exactly. It's what happened in the Six Day and Yom Kippur Wars. And just to go off topic, the latter of the two still sometimes leaves me with the urge for Israel to nuke Mecca and Medina on the last day of Ramadan. Maybe they should know what it's like to be wantonly attacked on the holiest day of the year. F*ckers. Of course Israel needs to play the PR games to keep their aid rather than following the "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" principle that it was founded on. Anyway, of course "Palestine" will attack Israel as soon as they have the chance. It's history. It'd be against their disturbing principles NOT to attack. That's fine. Bring it on. The Pensacola PD could take an Arab army (not the terrorists, but the organized army) on a good day. And you can't carpet bomb terrorists, but you CAN do that to a hostile nation that is attacking you. Let them attack. It'll be the last mistake they ever make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 It'll be the last mistake they ever make. Said Luke to Jabba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin Said Luke to Jabba. Come to think of it..... Coincidence? I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 Why do you have a pic of Arafart and Pastabelly? But I feel you on the Yom Kippur thing. Remember all that junk we had about not bombing during Ramadan, or not bombing on Friday evenings during Ramadan? Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted May 12, 2004 Share Posted May 12, 2004 It's bullsh*t. We go out of our way to not bomb them on their 40 (or so, I try to ignore Islam as much as I can, not sure on the exact amount of days) holiest days, and THEY go out of their way TO attack Israel on their single holiest day. It's a f*cking load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 I, for one, don't want Israel to be "turned loose" in Gaza. I don't want to be there. I don't want my armed forced to be there. I don't want the few thousands of ultra-right-winged Jews to be there for my armed forces to have to protect. I don't want to be viewed as the oppressor. I don't want to oppress. I don't want to kill anyone by mistake even if it wasn't my fault. I don't want to be killed. I want nothing there. I want out of there. If the Palestinians want to live miserably - let it be made clear that I wasn't the cause. If I have to defend my country, let me draw its boarders outside of Gaza, and then defend with all my might. *** OK, having said that, allow me to draw the follwing scenario: Ariel Sharon surprises us all and withdraws the troops out of the Gaza strip. After a bloody struggle between the IDF and the resisting Jewish settlers in Gaza - they, too, are retreated into pre 1967 boarders. Gaza is left entirely for the Palestinians. Katyusha rockets are fired from within a Gaza neighborhood into Israel's Ashkelon, killing dozens. Israel retaliates from the air or using artillery. Palestinians are killed, Israel is STILL condemned. "Why did you use Apaches?", why did you use your military might against a military force lesser than yours?, the International community would still cry out. So even if (wishfully "when") Israel leaves Gaza, it would have difficulties displaying its might, defending itself. Kind of a damned if you do, damned if you don't. I wish that by Israel's leaving the strip its problems would be solved. I hardly believe the Palestinians can solve their problems, I hardly believe they even really want them solved. *** Still, I want out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 13, 2004 Share Posted May 13, 2004 If the Israeli's were CHEST deep in the water. throwing shellfish at the palestinians for trying to push their heads down. Israel would be condemned. Besides you cant turn that lil tiny lil bity city loose against 5 giant Manly Arab countries... it wouldnt be fair... Israel would crush them and get condemned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 :bump: still want out. Not alone in this: Over 150,000 attend rally calling for Gaza withdrawal Haaretz Service More than 150,000 people attended a left wing demonstration at Rabin Square in Tel Aviv on Saturday evening under the banner 'get out of Gaza and start talking." Event organizers assessed that some 250,000 were present, Army Radio reported. The rally opened at 8 P.M. with a minute of silence to commemorate the 13 Israel Defense Forces soldiers killed in the Gaza Strip over the past week. Amid frequent outbreaks of applause and cheering, opposition leader Shimon Peres told the crows that 80 percent of Israeli want peace and just one percent is trying to block it. "We will not allow them," Peres said. "We must not support a puppet government that follows the delusional ideas of the right." Yahad Chairman Yossi Beilin said that for the past three years the peace camp has been dormant that today it finally awoke. One Nation chairman Amir Peretz called for a resumption of peace talks, saying that diplomatic and social affairs could not be seperated. "as a resident of Sderot [near the Gaza Strip] we do not fear disengagement and we fear neither dialogue nor a peace process." The event took place under heavy security with some 1300 police officers and volunteer security guards patrolling, and the streets around the plaza were closed from 4:30 P.M. A delegation of 50 Palestinians, supporters of the Geneva Initiative, were also expected to attend the rally. A Yesha Council of Settlements statement said on Saturday that the "leftist extremists" who organized the rally were dancing on blood of the Gaza victims. "The heads of the left are responsible for the bloody Oslo Accords which cost in over 1,200 Israeli lives and turned the Gaza Strip into the explosive pit it is." Speaking at the rally were opposition leader Shimon Peres, Yahad Chairman Yossi Beilin, One Nation Chairman Amir Peretz, Peace Now leader Tzaly Reshef and Yochi Brandes, on behalf of the Geneva Initiative, and former Shin Bet head Ami Ayalon, former head of the Shin Bet for the People's Voice. Former GOC Southern Comman chief Yom Tov Samia was also set to speak at the demonstration. Singers Danny Sanderson and Dana Berger performed at the rally, along with the band Nikmat Hatraktor. Ahead of the demonstration, the organizers rejected calls from politicians on the right to postpone the rally in the wake of the recent events in the Gaza Strip. Likud MK Ehud Yatom argued that the protest would demoralize soldiers serving in the Gaza Strip, Army Radio reported Friday. MK Gila Finkelstein of the National Religious Party said Friday that holding such a demonstration while the bodies of IDF soldiers were still lying in Rafah dishonors the fallen and their bereaved families. United Torah Party MK Meir Porush told Army Radio that political discourse should be put aside at a time when the country is mourning the death of its soldiers. The rally was scheduled by a new forum, Mate Harov (Majority's Coalition), after the Likud referendum rejected the prime minister's plan for a pullout from the Gaza Strip. The forum includes left and center-left groups such as Labor, Yahad, One Nation, Peace Now, the kibbutz movements, the Geneva Initiative organization, youth movements and the Forum of Bereaved Parents. Minister of Social Affairs Zevulun Orlev (NRP) asked Peres on Thursday to postpone the rally, saying it was not appropriate to hold a political demonstration while fallen soldiers were being buried. The organizers responded that national unity was not an issue considered by the prime minister when he decided to leave the decision on going ahead with his disengagement plan solely in the hands of Likud members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 15, 2004 Share Posted May 15, 2004 979 guy. If they leave will there be peace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Originally posted by Thiebear 979 guy. If they leave will there be peace? Absolutely not. It's not out of some "peacenik" naivete that I think Israel shouldn't be there. I think Israel shouldn't have been in Gaza to begin with. Furhtermore, I think it's correct militarily and believe its the humane thing to do for all parties involved after which less Jewish children will be killed there, less soldiers will be killed there, less soldiers will have to confront impossible dilemmas and experiences involving combat inside a densely populated civilian population (something which can't be good for the society I raise my children in), eventually less Palestinians will suffer from both foreign soldiers contorolling their lives and having to watch settlers lead a "normal" life while they suffer poverty in the gutters. Sadly, I think their suffering will continue, but I won't be there to be the cause of it, or the punching bag of its consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 Why dont you think Israel should be there? Nov 2, 1917 British issued the Balfour Declaration, viewed by Jews and Arabs as promising a “National Home” for the Jews in Palestine. 1936-1939 Arab Revolt led by Haj Amin Al-Husseini. Over 5,000 Arabs were killed according to some sources, mostly by British. Several hundred Jews were killed by Arabs. Husseini fled to Iraq and then to Nazi Germany. May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State; British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began. April 3, 1949 Armistice - Israel and Arab states agree to armistice. Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan. The war created over 780,000 Palestinian refugees who fled or were evicted from Jewish held areas. Gaza fell under the jurisdiction of Egypt. The West Bank of the Jordan was occupied by Jordan and later annexed, consistent with secret agreements made with the Zionist leadership prior to the initiation of hostilities. Oct. 29, 1956 Suez Campaign. In retaliation for a series of escalating border raids as well as the closure of the straits of Tiran and Suez canal to Israeli shipping, and to prevent Egyptian use of newly acquired Soviet arms in a war, Israel invades the Sinai peninsula and occupies it for several months, with French and British collaboration. Israel withdraws after a UN peace keeping force is placed in Sinai, and US guarantees right of passage for Israeli shipping through the Straits of Tiran. May, 1964 PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) founded with the aim of destroying Israel. The Palestinian National Charter (1968) officially called for liquidation of Israel. May, 1967 Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser closes the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismisses UN peacekeeping force. Negotiations with US to reopen the Straits of Tiran fail. June 5-11,1967 6-day war. Israel destroys the Egyptian air force on the ground, conquers and occupies Sinai and Gaza, then conquers the West Bank from Jordan, and Golan Heights from Syria. UN resolution 242 called for Israeli withdrawal, establishment of peace Oct. 6, 1973 Yom Kippur War (October War). In a surprise attack on the Jewish day of atonement, Egypt retook the Suez canal and a narrow zone on the other side. Syria reconquered the Golan Heights. Following massive US and Soviet resupplying of the sides, Israel succeeded in pushing back the Syrians and threatening Damascus. Ariel Sharon crossed the Suez Canal and cut off the Egyptian Third Army. March 26, 1979 Peace treaty signed between Egypt and Israel. June 6, 1982 Massive Israeli invasion of Lebanon to fight PLO. UN Security Council Resolution 509 demands that Israel withdraw all its military forces forthwith, but Israel advances rapidly to Beirut, surrounding the capital by 13 Jun. Israeli cabinet is split on the sudden expansion of the war, beyond the 40 KM limit originally declared by Sharon. Sept. 13, 1993 Oslo Declaration of Principles - Israel and PLO agree to mutual recognition, Yasser Arafat and PLO will be allowed to return to Gaza. PLO and Palestinian leadership renounce violence and use of terrorism, and agree to revise the PLO charter to remove chapters referring to destruction of Israel. Over the next, years, Israel withdraws from a small area (Area A) that is given to Palestinian sovereignty, a larger area (Area is given to Palestinian civil control only, while a third area of the West Bank and Gaza strip remains under total Israeli control. Israel did not dismantle any settlements, and the number of settlers and new settlements increased considerably. Palestinian groups did not remove their charter goals of destroying Israel; the PNA continued to finance, organize and encourage terror activities. Sept. 28, 2000 Palestinians initiated riots after Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, which is also the location of the Haram as Sharif holy to Muslims. Violence was apparently encouraged by Fatah Tanzim, as admitted by Marwan Barghouhi. Violence escalated rapidly from rock throwing to machine gun and mortar fire, suicide bombings and lethal road ambushes, including some incidents instigated by settlers against Palestinians. Israelis killed 15 Israeli Arabs in riots in September/October 2000, and over 2,000 Palestinians in retaliatory raids thereafter. Palestinians kill over 700 Israelis. Violence continues for over a year [to present - March 2003]. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 979guy Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 History and moral justification aside (it ain't about who's right - that simply won't convince anyone on either side), I just think it's not practical - morally, politically, militarily - for 6 thousand Jews to live there surrounded by 1.? Million Palestinians. It's a burden not worth carrying by any of the above mentioned means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chopper Dave Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 F*ck practicality. It was out of practicality that that Hitler simply "disposed" of 6 million of my people, alongside 6 million others. He didn't want them, it was practical to kill them. Israel rightfully exists in the land the Zionists bought and subsequentelly made a state, and they SHOULD rightfully exist in West Bank, Gaza, Sinai, Souththern Lebanon, etc. Israel beat the hell out of a conglomerate of Arabs, and THEY need to give back the land? Bullsh*t. If anything, the Arabs should cede land to compensate. But according to you, apparently it's not moral? It's not politically practical? Guess what? Neither was the American Revolution. And as far as militarily, Israel would have the advantage. I'd take a 6000:1000000 ratio any day. If it were only that favorable on a worldwide scale. The Israelis should not only be in Gaza, but if the world wasn't full of people who hate Israel, they'd be about three times the size they are today. ------------------------ Edit: Sorry 979, got a little too personal and I misunderstood, it's been fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Die Hard Posted May 16, 2004 Share Posted May 16, 2004 The problem with letting Isreal lose would be that so many other allied countries would be jumping in - directly or indirectly - that it would turn into a full-scale world war. Otherwise, I'd agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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