Mad Mike Posted May 2, 2004 Author Share Posted May 2, 2004 You people are insane. phishhead. Just once I would like for you to back up one of you absurd, moronic statements with anything resembling fact. Your cartoon conspiricy theory view of the US and it's intentions would be comical were it not for the fact that you assinine opinions are so harmfull to the interest of the country I love. Maybe we can't change the UN but we sure as hell don't have to put their interests before ours. webnarc. Same goes for you. You are so far out of touch with reality its scary. The plan is to get americans killed? That's a lie and YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT. The plan is to SAVE LIVES HERE by using our army to kill the bad guys over there. Thanks for sharing two of the most F'd up opinions I have ever had the displeasure of reading. You should get together and form a cult. Just do it in France, america can do without your kind.:jerkoff: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted May 2, 2004 Author Share Posted May 2, 2004 BTW, are you so incapable of reasoned thought that you cannot see the irony of you own post? Ha ha, you're a funny guy who isn't too bright today. Step seven was for people like you. Anyone who disagrees with you must be stupid. Truely sad. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webnarc Posted May 2, 2004 Share Posted May 2, 2004 Originally posted by Mad Mike webnarc. Same goes for you. You are so far out of touch with reality its scary. The plan is to get americans killed? That's a lie and YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT. The plan is to SAVE LIVES HERE by using our army to kill the bad guys over there. Yes Mike, and if they had planned better they would have killed more of the bad guys and fewer American's would have been killed. But they didn't and I sounds like you are defending their actions because of party lines. You'll hide behind your military knowledge while pumping out unquestioned support of how this war is going. You'll bleed your weasel on people who suggest that things are not going well, but then not comment on their contributions on how things could have gone better or where increased work could have improved the war progress. I'm happy that you think I'm psychotic because that mean that I am not like you about this issue; makes my Sunday to know that I'll never have to change my name to "mad webnarc" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Originally posted by Mad Mike You people are insane. phishhead. Just once I would like for you to back up one of you absurd, moronic statements with anything resembling fact. Your cartoon conspiricy theory view of the US and it's intentions would be comical were it not for the fact that you assinine opinions are so harmfull to the interest of the country I love. Maybe we can't change the UN but we sure as hell don't have to put their interests before ours. webnarc. Same goes for you. You are so far out of touch with reality its scary. The plan is to get americans killed? That's a lie and YOU DAMN WELL KNOW IT. The plan is to SAVE LIVES HERE by using our army to kill the bad guys over there. Thanks for sharing two of the most F'd up opinions I have ever had the displeasure of reading. You should get together and form a cult. Just do it in France, america can do without your kind.:jerkoff: What you and I see as "facts" are two different things, my friend. Cartoon conspiracy theory? Anytime someone says something a right-winger disagrees with its a conspiracy theory! Its great that you want a corrupt free world. But that can't include the U.S. or its interests, right? Your hypocrisy is noted. Hmm, France eh? No thanks. I prefer to be here in this great, wonderful, country. Its just people like you who can't accept various viewpoints that make it, well, scary. Say, no wonder you have such a lust for those currently running the country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted May 3, 2004 Author Share Posted May 3, 2004 Originally posted by webnarc Yes Mike, and if they had planned better they would have killed more of the bad guys and fewer American's would have been killed. But they didn't and I sounds like you are defending their actions because of party lines. You'll hide behind your military knowledge while pumping out unquestioned support of how this war is going. You'll bleed your weasel on people who suggest that things are not going well, but then not comment on their contributions on how things could have gone better or where increased work could have improved the war progress. I'm happy that you think I'm psychotic because that mean that I am not like you about this issue; makes my Sunday to know that I'll never have to change my name to "mad webnarc" . Hmmmm. Hiding behind knowledge. What an interesting concept. As opposed to what? Basking in the warm glow of ignorance? And I'm still waiting for a single concrete argument about how things could have been done better. You haven't given one and you refuse to accept what every knowledgable person knows; NO WAR PLAN IS EVER PERFECT. Name a war and I can show you through the magic of hindsite how it could have been done better, I can do the same for any battle you name if you give me time to do the research. That's what happens when you have humans on the other side who are working against you. The REALITY is that what you attribute to failure is in fact par for the course. War is an ugly thing and people die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted May 3, 2004 Author Share Posted May 3, 2004 Originally posted by phishhead What you and I see as "facts" are two different things, my friend. Cartoon conspiracy theory? Anytime someone says something a right-winger disagrees with its a conspiracy theory! Its great that you want a corrupt free world. But that can't include the U.S. or its interests, right? Your hypocrisy is noted. Hmm, France eh? No thanks. I prefer to be here in this great, wonderful, country. Its just people like you who can't accept various viewpoints that make it, well, scary. Say, no wonder you have such a lust for those currently running the country! Facts? You havent given any facts. You have called me a "right wing f*ck", For the record, I'm an independant and I hate the party system because it encourages people like you to shut down their brains. Same goes for hard line republicans. And your hypocrisy is duely noted as you downplay the corruption of france and the UN and make unsubstantiated claims of corruption within the administration. It is also duely noted that your first response to me was to call me and anyone who shows you WHY france, russia and the UN opposed us a "right wing f*ck" and dismiss the evidence. hypocrisy thy name is phishhead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phishhead Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Originally posted by Mad Mike Facts? You havent given any facts. You have called me a "right wing f*ck", For the record, I'm an independant and I hate the party system because it encourages people like you to shut down their brains. Same goes for hard line republicans. And your hypocrisy is duely noted as you downplay the corruption of france and the UN and make unsubstantiated claims of corruption within the administration. It is also duely noted that your first response to me was to call me and anyone who shows you WHY france, russia and the UN opposed us a "right wing f*ck" and dismiss the evidence. hypocrisy thy name is phishhead. Its funny, you assume that I'm a democrat or something! :laugh: Actually, just like you I am an independent. It may not be the two-party system that has shut down your brain, Mad Mike, I think it is your hatred for a view different from yours. And for the record I do not "downplay" the corruption of UN, or France. I basically said that I'm more concerned with things that I can change or have at least a little influence on, and the UN or France isn't included in that. As a citizen of the United States, I can only have a part in what the US does, nobody else. You can worry about what they do all you want. For me, thats a waste of time. It seems like you can be easily directed to matters that you have no influence over, and thats a shame. Thats just about any various governments policy though, "Worry about what they do, not what we do. We are good, they are evil." As for the hypocrit part, sure, I suppose you are right in a way. I do condemn the US and its policies over the UN, or France, or anyone elses. You already know the reason why. Oh by the way, you don't have to be republican to be right-wing or to have certain fascist leanings. A person of your knowledge should know that.. maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webnarc Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 Originally posted by Mad Mike Hmmmm. Hiding behind knowledge. What an interesting concept. As opposed to what? Basking in the warm glow of ignorance? And I'm still waiting for a single concrete argument about how things could have been done better. You haven't given one and you refuse to accept what every knowledgable person knows; NO WAR PLAN IS EVER PERFECT. Name a war and I can show you through the magic of hindsite how it could have been done better, I can do the same for any battle you name if you give me time to do the research. That's what happens when you have humans on the other side who are working against you. The REALITY is that what you attribute to failure is in fact par for the course. War is an ugly thing and people die. Mike - http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=688991#post688991 (it is in this thread) is a list of common sense things that could have been done to improve the progress of the war. If it isn't concrete enough for you, do some back ground psychology research and you'll realize that many of these things SHOULD have been addressed BEFORE the war but they were not. I'd like you to be a little more genuine with what you are saying and what you are asking. Specifically, what is wrong with the list of things I presented to you and why did you ignore it almost completely yesterday? I know you are incorrect to say that I am ignorant and you are incorrect to say that I have not accepted that every war is ugly and that it will not go off according to plan. To be honest with you Mike, it is as thought you take any criticism of the war personally; like we're saying "I can't believe how badly you planned this war Mike". We're not saying that, we never have. I've maintained that some of what has happened over there is the result of a war plan that didn't consider the HUMAN aspect of the *enemy*, the end goal of the coalition and the similarities between ALL people. When someone see the only possible choice as violence, they are not looking hard enough within themselves to solve the problem. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, my goal when I posted the list of things that COULD have been done better was to foster some intelligent discourse about the subject. It seems like you understand that now, but only after calling me crazy. It's a weird way to get to a goal but I'll take the licks if it helps draw something useful out of you. The balls in your court now Mike, keep pissing or get on board and discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted May 3, 2004 Share Posted May 3, 2004 He loves to surround himself with smart people -- but his definition of "smart" seems to include the phrase "agrees with Donald Rumsfeld." Once he decides you're not smart, there is little chance of redemption. Hmmm...echoes of Mad Mike? Maybe it is Mad Mike's war and that's why he's taking it so personally! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Originally posted by Mad Mike Facts? You havent given any facts. You have called me a "right wing f*ck", For the record, I'm an independant and I hate the party system because it encourages people like you to shut down their brains. Same goes for hard line republicans. And your hypocrisy is duely noted as you downplay the corruption of france and the UN and make unsubstantiated claims of corruption within the administration. It is also duely noted that your first response to me was to call me and anyone who shows you WHY france, russia and the UN opposed us a "right wing f*ck" and dismiss the evidence. hypocrisy thy name is phishhead. Hey Mike, why don't you post your so-called reasons for war. I think now's a good time to rebfute all those so called facts posted by newsmax. The fact is Osama Bin Laden hated Saddam Hussen for two reasons. First, his political ruling of a secular "socialist" government was against OBL's belifs and against his teachings. Second, his invasion of Kuwait, into a free muslim nation and the threats of invading Saudi Arabia caused OBL to publicly denounce Saddam. There are probably a lot of other reasons why, but OBL wanted nothing to do with Saddam. The only thing that's even remotely factual listed in your list is that a Iraqi person travelled to the hills of Afghanistan and supposedly bet Al Qaeda operatives two years before 9-11. We have no evidence they met, nor that anything came of it. The suggestion that the chemical weapons coming from Syria is also a red herring. Maybe you didn't know, but Syria has WMDs and the attempted link to proove the grade was an Iraqi grade came up empty, so there goes that theory as well. Here's a link showing the OBL's hatred calling Saddam an infidel, but supporting the Iraqi people. http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0211-11.htm While urging Muslims to support the Iraqi people and repel any attack on their country, the tape said Saddam's secular "socialist" government had lost credibility. "Socialists are infidels wherever they are," the statement said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravens777 Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 Originally posted by Tarhog du7st. All wars are ugly. The difference is, historically, we've had the stomach to do what needed to be done. It remains to be seen whether we have the stomach for it in the modern era. I'm not minimizing the pain of the losses we've incurred. Neither of us have any real inkling of how things really look on the ground in Iraq. You think you do. I know I don't, despite being imminently qualified, because having been in combat in that arena, I know the media never comes close to getting the story factually right. You're basing your characterization on US casualities. I'm not arguing they've been either insignificant or that they may not reflect an inability to execute our plans there. But your jump from 'things haven't gone as well as we had hoped' straight to 'the war is headed straight down the tubes' is a pretty big leap. Tarhog...........My hat is off to you. This is by far the best post I have read on this issue in a long time. Thank you for your service to this great country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted May 4, 2004 Share Posted May 4, 2004 I posted before everything started that my biggest reservation was that we didn't seem ot have an exit planned. I find it heartening to know that atleast a few in the Bush administration had the same concerns (Armitage and Powell). It's just a shame their views weren't sided with. I find myself pretty close to what Card is saying in here. I also think Web Narc has a few good points. We are really a ship adrift right now in Iraq. We don't really have a way to define success. Early on, we had a standard by which we could be successful: find WMD and show the world we were right. When that failed, we've fallen back to justifying hte war as removing a terrible regime. That's noble and all, but it makes for a poor end game. How and when do we get to say "we won?" If we leave now, we may very well have a worse situation after we leave than beofre we came. We desperately need a set of clearly identified goals where we can claim success when they are accomplished. The lack of clearly articulated (and stuck to) goals over the past few months is one of the Bush adminstrations largest failures with this war in my eyes. Now as to what Kerry proposes...it depends on what your goals are. If you want a government there recognized by the people...it probably can't be too pro U.S. The U.N. is just a means of putting in a government the Iraqi people will recognize. Perfect? No! Workable? Maybe, but it will take more of America's traditional power: diplomacy to get the UN abck involved. I'm not sure what Bush's goals are. He talks about "limited sovereignity" to be turned over this summer. Isn't that an oxymoron? I think Kerry wants to give power over Iraq as completely and quickly as possible without leaving Iraq worse than before we came. From what I gather, that's his definition of "success." What is Bush's? I ask because I'm not sure it's been defined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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