Atlanta Skins Fan Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Some people have been wondering why Denny Green hasn't coached in the two years since he was forced out by Vikings owner Red McCombs. The suggestion has been made (by Art) that NFL teams are somehow avoiding Denny Green, and that we should be reading something significant into this. Now, it's possible that NFL teams have in fact avoided Denny Green, but that's not the likely explanation. The simple explanation is this: Denny Green would have to be paid more than $2.8 million/year by the new team before he would see a new dollar of income from being a head coach. This is because his Vikings buyout called for him to be paid in full for 2002 and 2003 -- unless he coached for another team. So, for Denny Green, the mathematics were pretty obvious: he'd have to be paid a lot more than $2.8 million a year to make it worth being a head coach in 2002 and 2003. Now that his buyout period is over, Denny is due no more money from the Vikings. So he's naturally more interested in offers from teams. And the NFL teams, no doubt aware of Green's contractual situation, are now more interested in him. Here are the details of his buyout from an AP article at the time of his buyout. Note the player comments in support of Green. ------------------------------------ http://espn.go.com/nfl/news/2002/0104/1305597.html Friday, January 4, 2002 Green, Vikings agree to buyout Associated Press EDEN PRAIRIE, Minn. -- Dennis Green's stormy run with the Minnesota Vikings ended abruptly Friday when he was forced out with one game left in a grim season. Green, whose 10-year tenure tied him with Pittsburgh's Bill Cowher for longest in the league, accepted a buyout of the last two years of his contract. "I've been very blessed and very fortunate. The players have been absolutely fantastic," said Green, who took no questions in announcing his departure. "This year we had to fight our way from close to the bottom, and that's life in the National Football League," he added. "You cannot love something and have passion for something only when it goes the way you want it to go." ESPN reported that Green will receive his salary in full for the next two seasons. Green receives $2.6 million in 2002 and $2.8 million in 2003 for a total of $5.4 million. There's one restriction: If Green gets another head coach or general manager position, the amount the new team pays Green is subtracted from what the Vikings owe him. Green was only the second black head coach in modern NFL history when he was hired in 1992. His dismissal leaves Tampa Bay's Tony Dungy and the New York Jets' Herman Edwards as the league's only black head coaches. Offensive line coach Mike Tice was appointed interim head coach for the team's finale Monday night at Baltimore. The Vikings are 0-7 on the road and have been beaten by the two teams that have just one win -- Detroit and Carolina. The Vikings are 5-10 and will miss the playoffs for the first time since 1995. This is their first losing season under Green but owner Red McCombs said the record wasn't the reason for the change. McCombs alluded to the issue of control when he said he "couldn't find a way for leadership with Dennis that worked." "I admire Dennis a lot and appreciate what he's done," McCombs said. "But I also know that we live by the fact there ain't never a horse that can't be rode and there's never a cowboy that can't be throwed." Tice called it a "very tough situation" before leaving to run the team's first practice without Green. "It's a great opportunity to lead coach Green's team into Baltimore," he said. Green was a popular coach, and many players were tearful about his firing. Others were angry. Travis Prentice, who was happy to get out of Cleveland when Green acquired him in a trade in September, angrily threw his jersey into his locker and wouldn't talk to reporters. Safety Tyrone Carter was among several players who credited Green for his personal success. "He's one of the reasons I'm here," Carter said. "He believed in his players, and gave you an opportunity to prove yourself." "I don't know what to say, I'm as shocked as all of us," linebacker Jim Nelson said. "We have one game left, and this will be a distraction a little bit, but we still have to play." Under Green, the Vikings won four division titles and went to the playoffs eight times. They also lost two heartbreaking NFC championship games -- in 1998 when they were 15-1 and favored over Atlanta, and last season when they were humiliated 41-0 by the New York Giants. Green guided the Vikings to the best record in the NFL over the previous three seasons, but things got off to a rocky start in 2001 with the championship game loss. Then, on the second day of training camp, offensive tackle Korey Stringer collapsed of heatstroke. Stringer, a Pro Bowl player and team leader, died the following day. In recent weeks, wide receiver Randy Moss has been inconsistent and said he only plays when he feels like it. Green was criticized for appearing to tolerate Moss's attitude. And Green's relationship with receiver Cris Carter, a longtime leader on the team, had cooled. On Dec. 11, McCombs gave Green a vote of confidence despite the turmoil. Asked then if he could say Green will be the Vikings' coach next season, McCombs replied: "Yeah. Absolutely." McCombs said he hadn't had time to compile a list of potential replacements, but Tice appears to be one. ESPN reported that Dungy, a former University of Minnesota quarterback and Vikings defensive coordinator, would be a leading candidate. But a source close to Dungy, speaking on condition of anonymity, told The Associated Press that it's unlikely Dungy would want the job. University of Texas coach Mack Brown also has been mentioned as a possible replacement. Brown said Friday he wouldn't comment on the sudden Vikings opening. Moss avoided reporters Friday. His agent, Dante DiTrapano, said the wide receiver did not want to see Green leave. "I could just tell you that if coach Green is gone, I'd say that Randy is disappointed," DiTrapano said. "He's extremely loyal to coach Green. ... Coach Green is the one he wants to play for." Punter Mitch Berger said he respected McCombs' right to change coaches, but said he was surprised to see Green go. "When you walk through this building, the guy in charge is Denny Green," Berger said. "And for that not to be anymore is very strange to me." 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Mania Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 interesting, thanks for posting the link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsblitz Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Atlanta Skins Fan, That last quote in your post says exactly why I don't see Denny Green coming here. Snyder wants to be known as the man in charge. He doesn't want a coach he hired being the man around Redskins Park. It's all an ego thing with Snyder. As long as he continues to put his ego before the team we will continue to go through this crap season after season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Dude, the guy bought a NASCAR team. He is trying to be Joe Gibbs. The only thing left to do is lead a team to Four SB's win 3 with 3 different QB's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DT Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 That's really interesting about Dennis Green. I've met some Minnesota fans at the Pro Bowl saying what an a** he really was/is. I'm quite sure Al Davis would love to have him in Oakland knowing he doesn't have to pay him $2.5 mil. a year. Maybe Snyder would want him too, who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 ASF, Without realizing it, you've just made a case against Denny Green as our coach if this is remotely true. Whether he coached or not he was to get the same amount of money in total compensation. So, you'd have us believe he chose to sit out because, hey, why bother? You mean a head football coach who we need to have an extreme devotion and love of the game simply decided to sit out? I don't want a guy who'd motivated by money as our head coach. I want a guy who's motivated by coaching and competition and winning. If your idea is one bit true, we don't want Green anywhere near this franchise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Originally posted by Art ASF, Without realizing it, you've just made a case against Denny Green as our coach if this is remotely true. Whether he coached or not he was to get the same amount of money in total compensation. So, you'd have us believe he chose to sit out because, hey, why bother? You mean a head football coach who we need to have an extreme devotion and love of the game simply decided to sit out? I don't want a guy who'd motivated by money as our head coach. I want a guy who's motivated by coaching and competition and winning. If your idea is one bit true, we don't want Green anywhere near this franchise. You mean ASF made a case against Denny Green? :rotflmao: I better post a link to this post in my "Case Against Denny Green post". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 Originally posted by Art ASF, Without realizing it, you've just made a case against Denny Green as our coach if this is remotely true. Whether he coached or not he was to get the same amount of money in total compensation. So, you'd have us believe he chose to sit out because, hey, why bother? You mean a head football coach who we need to have an extreme devotion and love of the game simply decided to sit out? I don't want a guy who'd motivated by money as our head coach. I want a guy who's motivated by coaching and competition and winning. If your idea is one bit true, we don't want Green anywhere near this franchise. Art, I don't agree. Put yourself in Green's position. He'd coached the Vikings for 10 straight years, Stanford before that. The buyout was probably the first extended time out of his adult lifetime. Put me in Green's position at 52 years old, and I'd do the exact same thing. Not because I'm excessively motivated by money, but because coaching in the NFL is an all-consuming occupation. I'd appreciate the excuse to take two years out and recharge my batteries. I think I'd be a better coach afterward for doing so. I'd even feel the same way about my own career. I would love to have the freedom to do whatever I wanted for two years, keep up the same income, then return to my career without missing a beat. And you can't say it's because I'm not committed to my work -- I work harder than anyone I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 from the looks of it on this board, you're getting a cut of that $2.5 million. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 bring on Fassel...so we can all join another coach hunt in 3 years!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Originally posted by fansince62 bring on Fassel...so we can all join another coach hunt in 3 years!!!! I think that outcome is very possible if we hire any of these 3 guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 Green did not rush back into coaching because of his Viking buyout, but he did show interest to return to coaching last season. He openly campaigned for the Lions job, before they hired Marraucci, and expressed interest in the 49er vacancy. Because of his contract he was able to be more selective in the positions that appealed to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 RealAudio Clip: Denny Green on the excitement of building a new football program RealAudio Clip: Denny Green on the upcoming new Cardinals domed stadium ... and the new "approach" that could come with it (from a newsconference after his Cardinals interview) On listening to these clips, Green's interest in the Cardinals makes some sense. Like Marvin Lewis taking over in Cincinnati, he has the chance to take over a chronic loser and build an enduring winner, free from interference from owners like Al Davis and Dan Snyder. With the upcoming domed stadium, Anquan Boldin at WR, and a top pick in the draft that could snag a franchise QB, there are some key pieces in place for Green to build a dominant passing offense in Arizona over the next 3-5 years. Arizona makes sense for Green, as a long-term project. The Raiders and the Redskins could be better, quicker, but have owner control issues that could undermine Green. Nonetheless, if Snyder and Green could ever see eye to eye, Green could build a huge winner out of the Redskins in a very short time -- and the Redskins make a great national stage for a winning team. It's up to Snyder to give Green that commitment and forge the best working partnership to make it happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan It's up to Snyder to give Green that commitment and forge the best working partnership to make it happen. [/b] If he hasn't given up the control to a certified GM, he sure as hell ain't going to give it to a coach again. We all know how that one turned out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by TankRizzo If he hasn't given up the control to a certified GM, he sure as hell ain't going to give it to a coach again. We all know how that one turned out. Tank, Snyder tried to give up control to a certified GM when we hired Spurrier. We had a deal in place with Beathard and it fell through as he was essentially coming back this way for the announcement. No one ever reported why, but, if he was going to come back for the GM position you know control was given up. We spoke to several GM type candidates, like Modrak and Herock. We tried to seduce Allen last, but he simply didn't want to leave Oakland at that time. After we felt there were no elite level GMs available Snyder split the front office into operations and personnel. He offered Ruskell the job but the Bucs refused to let him leave. It now appears that Snyder likes the three-headed monster front office structure that adds some business sense to the decision making process. But, other than the mild rumors about Allen we haven't heard anyone seriously mentioned for a similar role this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by TankRizzo If he hasn't given up the control to a certified GM, he sure as hell ain't going to give it to a coach again. We all know how that one turned out. It turned out badly mainly because Snyder hated the product that Marty put on the field. Martyball was painful to watch at times, even though it eventually won 8 of the last 11 games. It was the ugly product that set in motion the fight over control (Snyder trying to get Jimmy Raye fired) that led to Marty's ouster. * The one thing that has gone without comment in all these discussions is this: Denny Green runs exactly the kind of offense that Dan Snyder has been desperate for the Redskins to run. It's a wide-open, Gibbs-style offense that emphasizes downfield passing, at least two dominant WRs, and a power running game. I feel like I'm watching a dumb romantic comedy, when the guy and the girl are so obviously perfect for each other, but can't see it themselves. Hello? Mr. Snyder? You do realize, don't you, that Denny Green would make the Redskins terrifically exciting again -- and that the offense already has most of the personnel to pull it off right away? This ain't the Fun 'n' Done. This is an offense that dominated the NFL for the better part of nine years. Hello? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by Art Tank, Snyder tried to give up control to a certified GM when we hired Spurrier. We had a deal in place with Beathard and it fell through as he was essentially coming back this way for the announcement. No one ever reported why, but, if he was going to come back for the GM position you know control was given up. We spoke to several GM type candidates, like Modrak and Herock. We tried to seduce Allen last, but he simply didn't want to leave Oakland at that time. After we felt there were no elite level GMs available Snyder split the front office into operations and personnel. He offered Ruskell the job but the Bucs refused to let him leave. It now appears that Snyder likes the three-headed monster front office structure that adds some business sense to the decision making process. But, other than the mild rumors about Allen we haven't heard anyone seriously mentioned for a similar role this time. Something about this just doesn't add up to me. Would he sail his racketball buddy down the river for a real GM? Or would he just dream up some BS title and give that to Ceratto or what? And why have these stories been so quiet? I've seen blurbs here and there but nothing to convince me that he's really trying to do this. Do you think he really wants to hand the keys over to someone else or do you think it's all smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's trying? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThatGuy Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I love this Marty finished 8-3 garbage. Another mangled stat. We won 5 straight to get to 5-5, to set ourselves up with a chance at the playoffs. Then we limped down the homestrech to go 3-3. Lets not pretend we roared home and Marty was screwed out of the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by TankRizzo Something about this just doesn't add up to me. Would he sail his racketball buddy down the river for a real GM? Or would he just dream up some BS title and give that to Ceratto or what? And why have these stories been so quiet? I've seen blurbs here and there but nothing to convince me that he's really trying to do this. Do you think he really wants to hand the keys over to someone else or do you think it's all smoke and mirrors to make it look like he's trying? Cerrato wasn't part of the equation then. He was still working for ESPN. You've seen more than blurbs about this process. There were dozens of articles on the whole thing when we hired Spurrier. Now, I doubt Snyder is looking to do the same thing now because he has gotten very strong players following Cerrato's evaluations. I suspect now we'd look to simply add another operations guy as we had with Mendes. I don't think we can say he's trying now because of the situation being so discrete. We're flatly denying anything's happening and I tend to believe that's true, so, I don't suspect we'll see a front office change at all this year. But, if they are still out in San Francisco, maybe they have Allen pinned down and are trying to get him to be our President. Who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by ThatGuy I love this Marty finished 8-3 garbage. Another mangled stat. We won 5 straight to get to 5-5, to set ourselves up with a chance at the playoffs. Then we limped down the homestrech to go 3-3. Lets not pretend we roared home and Marty was screwed out of the job. You expected him to run the table? Had he had all of the whiners on the same page for the whole year he would have been in the playoffs and I firmly believe we'd still be contenders right now had he still been on board. He managed to do one thing with that team that I've only seen under him in the past 9-10 years. He had that team playing as a team, with intensity and purpose. Once the whining stopped everything seemed to fall in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by Art Cerrato wasn't part of the equation then. He was still working for ESPN. You've seen more than blurbs about this process. There were dozens of articles on the whole thing when we hired Spurrier. Now, I doubt Snyder is looking to do the same thing now because he has gotten very strong players following Cerrato's evaluations. I suspect now we'd look to simply add another operations guy as we had with Mendes. I don't think we can say he's trying now because of the situation being so discrete. We're flatly denying anything's happening and I tend to believe that's true, so, I don't suspect we'll see a front office change at all this year. But, if they are still out in San Francisco, maybe they have Allen pinned down and are trying to get him to be our President. Who knows. This leads me back to post A. I can't forsee him giving up control to Denny Green. Especially considering his draft history. I know ASF is going to come in here w/ his Moss and Culpepper stories, but may god have mercy on our defense if he were given such authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted January 6, 2004 Author Share Posted January 6, 2004 Originally posted by TankRizzo This leads me back to post A. I can't forsee him giving up control to Denny Green. Especially considering his draft history. I know ASF is going to come in here w/ his Moss and Culpepper stories, but may god have mercy on our defense if he were given such authority. Tank, the implication in your post is that Green didn't prioritize the defense in his drafts. That was the assumption I made as well. It's wrong. I did an analysis of the Vikings drafts under Green from 1992 - 2001. I haven't had the time to post the results, but one conclusion is stunning: Over that 10-year period, Green selected only 17 offensive players with his first five picks, and 33 defensive players. Six out of 10 years, the top pick went to defense. Everything he touched on offense turned to gold ... and everything on defense turned to sh!t. It wasn't for lack of prioritizing defense in the draft -- it was some kind of weird voodoo of getting the wrong players or the wrong coaching for those players on defense. It was really sad watching the Vikings draft for defense year after year, with no improvement. In the 1997-98 drafts, nine out of the ten top picks went to the defense! They were pleading for help -- and didn't get it. It was the defense that doomed them in the 1998 NFC Championship game against the Falcons. (Fun trivia: guess what one pick out of those top ten in 1997-98 went to the offense? Randy Moss. See? With one pick on offense, Green demolished the impact of nine picks on defense.) The continued weakness on defense is indirectly Green's fault, because the buck stops with the head guy. But you could see that in the domain of his expertise, the offense, he was brilliant -- working with half the prestige draft picks that the defense had. I'm still trying to figure out why the defense could never get it together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TankRizzo Posted January 6, 2004 Share Posted January 6, 2004 I think after 10 years of consistantly sucking at picking defensive players; that it's not a voodoo curse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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