Atlanta Skins Fan Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 An interesting but clear pattern is developing. Call it "The War of the Quarters." And Hasselbeck is winning it by a country mile. Obviously what should matter most is winning games. Next most important is putting yourself in a position to win games -- by winning the game quarter by quarter. The Redskins offense under Ramsey has been incredibly cold -- sometimes inept -- almost all season long, early in the games. Only in the Jets and Tampa games did the Ramsey offense look competent early on, putting the team in the hole most of the time when the opposition took advantage. By contrast, the offense under Hasselbeck has so far never fallen significantly behind early, and has in fact led the games at the end of each quarter more often than not. I tallied the record of the team as it would be quarter by quarter throughout the season. Yes, we're 5-8 at the end of games, but how are we doing quarter by quarter? Who's winning at the end of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd quarters? In quarters started by Hasselbeck, the Redskins are 6-3-2. This is a "winning percentage" of 66.7% for his end-of-quarter scores. By contrast, in quarters started by Ramsey, the Redskins are 14-23-5 -- a winning percentage of 37.8%. If you throw out the Jets game and just count Ramsey's last 10 games, the Redskins are 10-23-5 (30.3%) in quarters started by Ramsey. I'm sure Ramsey has many defenders, myself included, who point out his superior physical gifts, the punishment he's taken, etc. But surely the usual excuse (he's young and inexperienced) is pretty irrelevant when compared to Hasselbeck, who's vastly *more* inexperienced. While I like Hasselbeck a lot, even I would say he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy who would ever win an NFL MVP. He's not flashy, and his arm strength is slightly below average by NFL standards. But most of the NFL isn't led by past or future NFL MVPs. Not everyone can be Brett Favre, Kurt Warner, Steve Young and Joe Montana in their primes. More often, you see effective quarterbacks as the guys who simply get the job done: run the offense efficiently, go to second and third options on plays when necessary, avoid big negative plays, and make the occasional really outstanding play. And the NFL gutter is littered with guys like Rob Johnson and Jeff George who had the physical tools of NFL MVPs but who somehow couldn't get it done. Now, I am *not* suggesting that Ramsey is like Rob Johnson and Jeff George -- both of whom I can't stand. But they are object lessons that physical tools are not sufficient, and falling too in love with a QB's physical tools can doom a team to extended failure. What matters at the end of the day in the NFL is winning. Hasselbeck strikes me as that: a winner. A guy who puts his team in position to win, and doesn't blow the game with big negative plays. Hasselbeck doesn't "excite" me as much as Ramsey does when he's clicking. But then, Jeff George could throw some pretty fine passes as well. Just because Ramsey is far superior to George as a human being doesn't necessarily mean he will be more successful as an NFL QB. I'm open-minded about both Ramsey and Hasselbeck. Ramsey has more obvious elements of greatness in him, but just because the potential is there doesn't mean he'll definitely close the deal. Hasselbeck has a lower ceiling than Ramsey, but then again -- Joe Montana went pretty far with a below-average arm. And no, I'm not suggesting that Hasselbeck is the second coming of Montana. What I *am* saying is that we owe it as fans to support players who lead our team to victory. So far -- and it's still very early -- Hasselbeck is doing what he needs to do to put our team in a position to win. And the more fans like us consign him to "good backup status," the more our fantasy-football owner will stick to his guns and forbid an alternative. Let's be smarter about that, and let this play out fairly. Let the best QB win the games and win the job. I support both these guys. I just hope that whoever deserves the job actually gets the job in the long run. Here's another interesting factoid: Hasselbeck had a 128 QB rating today. Ramsey, in his 17 games as the primary QB, has only three times racked up a game rating higher than 94, and never higher than 111. And yet hardly anyone is talking about Hasselbeck. Why is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophet Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 i think if he keeps up he should be given a fair chance to start next year Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I can't believe you wasted your time writing that. Actually, I can't believe I wasted my time skimming over that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Ramsey still has a better upside including a Giant arm. Nothing against Tim, but Patrick Ramsey unless he never heals from this will go into next year as the Starting QB and Spurrier knows that if he's even thinking that Tim COULD be the starter. He's not going public with in...including training camp. You can tell he wants a quiet offseason where he just tools with the roster alittle and watches a ton of tape...maybe even evaluate his coaching style to get these guys more serious early on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. D Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 ASF sounds like you are having an argument all by yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wicked Wop Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I knew this thread was coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Slammer Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Surely, ASF, you noticed the gameplanning today. 48 runs? 19 passes? I think Spurrier was calling the game to Hasselbeck's ability. You must admit Hasselbeck looked pretty damn ineffective against the Saints - a game Spurrier called a little bit more to form. Hasselbeck may be a decent QB, but Ramsey is far, far better for the offense that we brought Spurrier in to run. Today looked like Martyball, and I think it's because Spurrier knew his QB's limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skinster Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Hasselbeck makes quick choices, and moves around just enough to evade sacks, and make something out of nothing! I want to see Hasselbeck play the rest of the way out this season...Ramsey needs to see that this system works week in and week out! IMO i feel this post holds value! Because, are we lights out better when comparing the skins prior to Hasselbeck comming in??.... I say maybe not lights out better, but i see a major change for the better..... the lights are turning on! I am a Ramsey fan but i also like the passion Hasselbeck brings to the table.... i am tossed in the air but in my gut Hasselbeck seems to be the better choice! Skinster!!! Skin 4 Life Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I think you got an interesting argument but lets be honest, how many Super Bowl's have been won by "average" QB's? How many "Trent Dilfer's" have won the big one while having average, efficient seasons. Lets take a look: 1) Bart Starr- Was one of the leaders of those Green Bay teams. Threw for 3 TD's in that game against the Cheifs. 2)Bart Starr again 3)Joe Namath and his famous gurantee. Its hard to imagine an average, efficient QB winning that game for the Jets 4)Len Dawson. Was 12 of 17 passing and another leader for the Chiefs. 5) Johnny Unitas started this game for the Colts and led the Colts to their only TD scoring drive in the first quarter. 6)Roger Staubach. We all know enough about him 7) Bob Griese. Again one of the leaders of that team although this is the first one you can argue not having the QB be a major part of the winning. So we'll give you this one. 8) Griese again. And he only threw 7 passes in this game. So that is 2 9)Terry Bradshaw. His opponent was once again the great Fran Tarkenton. Bradshaw was the QB of the 1970s, HOF and made plays when it mattered. 10) Bradshaw again vs Staubach 11) Ken Stabler led the Raiders vertical passing attack against Tarkenton again. Stabler didn't have the biggest numbers but the QB was key to that offense 12)Staubach again 13)Bradshaw defeats the cowboys again 14)Bradshaw in his final moment of glory against the Rams 15) Jim Plunkett's 3 TD's keys the Raiders victory 16) Joe Montana's first of the decade. You are right he didn't have the best arm but he was the best QB by far of the decade 17)Thiesman. An argument could be made here since the Redskins ran over the Dolphins but Gibbs always had terrific QB play and Thiesman was no exception. 18) Jim Plunkett came through again 19) Joe Montana defeated a record setting QB in Dan Marino 20) Jim McMahon. Its hard to argue the type of year he had but we all know the defense was the key to the 1985 Bears. But you will not go 18-1 with "average" QB play 21) Phill Simms had the most accurate game ever for a QB going 22-25 and taking MVP honors 22)Doug Williams. We all know what he did and what he went through in his then record setting Super Bowl performance 23) Montana 24) Montana 25) Jeff Hostetler vs Jim Kelly. Here again you can make an argument for Hostetler being efficient and nothing spectaculor. But he made plays when neccessary 26) Mark Rypien. Had a huge year, huge game, this was his time to shine 27) Aikman's first of 3 against Jim Kelly again 28) Aikman 29) Steve Young who finally gets the monkey off his back has a record setting 6 TD performance 30) Aikman 31) Favre, the NFL MVP finally gets his Packers over the hump 32) One of the all time greats John Elway. And since Shannahon hasn't done squat in the playoffs since Elway left this says something. And he beat Favre 33) Elway 34) Kurt Warner in a clearly QB driven offense 35) Trent Dilfer. You win here 36) Tom Brady. It turns out though Brady is turning out to be a pretty good one 37) Brad Johnson. Good QB, we know what he is about, cant call him a superstar though. He beat a very good Rich Gannon also. So in looking back you need big time QB's to get you to the big game and win. Bob Griese may have been the first "efficient" QB to win it. Guys like Dilfer, McMahon and Hostetler have been more exceptions. Hasselback has put the Redskins in a position to win. But will he lead the Redskins to the big game? Based on this I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
th869 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 true plus Dilfer, McMahon, and Hostetler all had very good defences helping them. Plus Hostetler had Parcells calling the shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 :doh: This is the guy who thought that Bauman could be the starting FS for us. ASF, I get the impression that you believe in the theory that if you throw enough $hit on the wall, some will stick. Of course, if you do that, some will, so........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathByLinebacker Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Hasselbeck should have a fair chance to compete for the starting job. You'd think Ramsey should be able to win it, but being guaranteed it because he was a #1 pick seems wrong. Maybe it's just the Gator in me. You know how we love the 5th on the depth chart, waffle-armed, had to drive from Indiana to give Spurrier a tape of them playing to get recruited kind of guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great28 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 For some reason I get the impression that alot of people on this site think we have a "Great" quarterback in Ramsey, and a decent backup qb in Hasselbeck. To be quite honest with you, neither one has done anything spectacular to show one is better than the other. I mean what has PR done for us to think he is a big time qb in this league. Don't get me wrong, I believe he has tremendous potential and will someday be really good. But on the same note, TH has done a pretty good job as well. Looking back at the last three games we should be 7-6 and looking to the playoffs. But we aren't. Not because of the play of TH, but because the defense decided to go on vacation during the wanning minutes of those games. I believe if we win out the rest of the games some of you will be changing your song. Here's something to think about: If TH can play this well in a losing effort, what will his confidence level be like after a couple of wins? Looks like the QB controversy I prophecized about earlier is already starting at the lowest level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Even if those stats meant anything, even if one could just say something like "let's just throw out the Jets game because, well, I feel like it" and come out sounding credible, why would we want a guy who plays his worst ball in the fourth quarter? Saying, a QB has a winning record after three quarters is like saying your city has the lowest crime rate in the country if you don't count murders. It's a sign that a position is so feeble that stats have to practically be invented to support it. If anything, this post shows why Hasslebeck can not yet be counted on to start full-time for this team. If we need to invent a 3-quarter game to make him a winner, we might just want him to play backup for us instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Bradshaw had the steel curtain, franco harris and WRs swann and stallworth. the druggie QB they had would ve been the MVP for them if he kept his nose clean. Griese no name defense the original thunder and lightning with mercury morris and if Sonny wasnt injured would ve lost the super bowl instead of the 14-7 win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cskin Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Why does everyone forget that this is Ramsey's 2nd year in the league? He's a rookie... plain and simple. What we admire in him is his big arm, obvious intelligence, and sheer toughness. Great tangibles there... no question... but I'm not annointing him the greatest Redskin QB in history until he starts playing like one. *I need to see him view the whole field and hit open receivers in stride. *I need to see him move in the pocket, avoiding the inevitable "jail break" that happens in this league.... and hit the safety valve to avoid the sack and loss yardage. *I need to him throw the ball away when nothing's there, instead of forcing the ball or worse taking a sack. *I need to see him beat the blitz by hitting a WR on a post pattern that breaks the defense's will. Until I see those things... Ramsey is a rookie QB with plenty of potential and a plethora of tangible (arm) and intangibles (guts) qualities. If Hasselbeck is given the opportunity to learn in minicamp, training camp, and excels in preseason... than he should be able to compete for the starting job. If he exhibits the traits I need to see from Ramsey, and Ramsey doesn't during the same timeframe, than I'm wanting Hasselbeck starting the season. Easy as that. The question is... do we want to win? Or.... just win with a sexy young gunslinging QB with a rocket arm who was a 1st round pick in the 2001 draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Cskin, QB controversies can kill a team. I don't want to see one unless absolutely necessary. And I don't think three starts, two losses and a win against arguably the worst team in the league right now warrants one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougator Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 My two cents! We won!! The second the gun sounded I gave a He!! Yeah and turned to Pitcherjlt and said, "I can imagine all the QB threads this week!" It's what makes sports so great. It will "help" push the good to become great. Notice the word help. The good ones push themselves. I have no problem with a little rivalry. The only thing I disagree with is not setting a clear cut man at the first of the season. But don't for one second think that the win yesterday proves that TH is a starting QB. Not to say he won't. I like the kid and the way he approaches the game. But here are some reasons that the jury is still out. 1) Sorry Tom(the giants fan), but the Giants SUCK! And they lost one of their key players and leaders at a crucial point. Not to say we are any better right now. 2) The play calling is completely different for TH than Pat. Please tell me that yall see that. My only prayer is that this is not just being done for personel reasons, but for system reasons. This looks more like the offense at the first of the year. When we were winning. I'm all for being more confident in you players and giving more responsabilities, but I believe more in the old saying, "If it aint broke don't fix it!!" 3) Teams are not Blitzing. The second Pat went out of the game teams said, "We're going to make this new kid beat us." and stopped the blitzing. Which playes perfectly into the new (old) game plan. That will change next week. Again, None of this is directed toward TH. I really do like the kid. And I am not against a little healthy rivalry. But at least look at the facts. He!!, maybe TH will be the next "what did yall call Pat" Marino or Elway! LOL Bayougator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 When was the last time Ramsey only dropped back to pass 19 times? NEVER. One thing I will say: Tim has more pocket mobility and demonstrates more fluid athleticism. Now some of that may be due to Ramsey's injuries, but who knows. Also, Tim seems to find his backs and tight ends a little more than Ramsey. One positive that can come out of sitting Ramsey is having him learn that sometimes, he just needs to dump it off rather than waiting til the last second for something to develop downfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayougator Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 I wonder if it would change yalls minds about Qb's that hold on to the ball so long to go deep all the time if it was ever said in the public that they are told to do that by the coach because they have the arm strength to do that? Or that plays are run to show off a players abilities? Now I'm not saying that it is ever done! I would never say that. No really I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong. I didn't say that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by bayougator I wonder if it would change yalls minds about Qb's that hold on to the ball so long to go deep all the time if it was ever said in the public that they are told to do that by the coach because they have the arm strength to do that? Or that plays are run to show off a players abilities? Now I'm not saying that it is ever done! I would never say that. No really I wouldn't. Don't get me wrong. I didn't say that. Hasselback numbers the last two games, totals what PR can do in one game easily. If Spurrier felt TH could be the #1 guy, don't you think he would have put PR on IR by now? If Patrick can go Spurrier wants him in there. another offseason, and getting healthy we will all be building alters to PR next season .... well you know what I mean. Bottom line PR is the kind of QB that WINS the game with his play, TH is the guy that manages a game not to lose with his play. I just remember the first game when PR ducked the blitzing LB, and threw a frozen rope to Coles 40 plus yards with little effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by bayougator 2) The play calling is completely different for TH than Pat. Please tell me that yall see that. My only prayer is that this is not just being done for personel reasons, but for system reasons. This looks more like the offense at the first of the year. When we were winning. I'm all for being more confident in you players and giving more responsabilities, but I believe more in the old saying, "If it aint broke don't fix it!!" Bayougator Ding ding ding ding ding!!!!! The playcalling is exactly why TH looks more effective than PR. Also, TH was taught by Andy Reid to get rid of the ball asap. Patrick was taught by SS to go thru a system of reads. Last year when PR had less of a command of the offense, SS simplified things and ran the ball more, and Ramsey looked terrific down the stretch. Then SS started drooling over how far downfield this kid could fling a perfect spiral and started trying for home runs every play. Patrick's struggles are as much a product of SS's development as they are of his own making. Also, the guy has been playing hurt. Remember all the heat McNumbnuts was taking at the beginning of the year when he was playing with the broken thumb and recovering from the busted leg. Hmm.... where have all his naysayers gone..... PR was developing a solid pocket presence during the first half a dozen games or so. His only real struggle was learning to see the blitz and have a hot read for a safety blanket. I kept wondering why the he!! we never set up screen passes to the RBs to burn all these blitzes. Finally I saw at least a few of them in the last couple games. Some time on the bench this year will probably be a good thing in retrospect for Ramsey, just as it was last year. I look for the guy to come out ultra-strong next year!! All he and the Ol' Ball Coach need to do is work a bit on getting rid of the ball sooner. And I'm relieved we have a decent backup. Finally, which QB would you rather have playing in the 4th qtr? Gotta be PR. He has a Favre-like quality of providing a spark when the game is really on the line. TH does seem to have an innate ability to manage a game, but you need someone like Ramsey to pull out a come from behind victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Bayou, It's obvious that Spurrier changes things up for Patrick and puts an emphasis on hanging in there and looking downfield. And, very much to his credit, Patrick has done just that all season. But for his own sake and health, I'd like to see Patrick go for more safety-valve throws. All season, Patrick has done everything that Spurrier asked of him. And it's gotten him hurt. So, in my mind, much of the ineffectiveness the team has demonstrated lately with Patrick at the helm is on Spurrier. Time and again, in the face of blitzes and shotty protection, Spurrier has called five and seven step drops for Patrick. And admirably, knowing the heat was coming, Patrick did just that and stood his ground. As a fan, it's been hard having to watch our prized, beloved young Qb get whomped on b/c of the coach's penchant for the deep ball. I can't imagine having to watch my younger brother absorb all that punishment. So, for the record, my point is that there were a few times this season, several in the Dallas game, where I would have liked to see Patrick dump it off, against his coach's will, to save his own neck. But, to his credit, that's not the way Patrick plays. It's up to the coach to protect the qb, and it seems that there have been a few times this year where Spurrier has left Patrick out to dry by continuing to call deep pass plays rather than saying ok, Let's go with some shorter stuff, get the ball into the hands of the receivers, let them make plays and keep Patrick from getting hit. Spurrier knows Patrick is tough and will stand in there, and it seems he has taken advantage of that and put more of an emphasis on making the long play than on keeping his tough, strong armed qb healthy. Bayou, it's great having you as a poster here. We all love your brother and wish him the best. By the way, what did you think of the piece that Sally Jenkins wrote last week on Patrick? I liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Hog Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Can somebody please investigate the stats and tell me how many games we actually didn't have to play from behind when Patrick started? Seems to me as though we had leads going into the fourth quarter in every game that Hasselbeck played. Maybe if Patrick had that type of luxury, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Patrick is our guy plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
great28 Posted December 8, 2003 Share Posted December 8, 2003 Originally posted by bayougator My two cents! We won!! The second the gun sounded I gave a He!! Yeah and turned to Pitcherjlt and said, "I can imagine all the QB threads this week!" It's what makes sports so great. It will "help" push the good to become great. Notice the word help. The good ones push themselves. I have no problem with a little rivalry. The only thing I disagree with is not setting a clear cut man at the first of the season. But don't for one second think that the win yesterday proves that TH is a starting QB. Not to say he won't. I like the kid and the way he approaches the game. But here are some reasons that the jury is still out. 1) Sorry Tom(the giants fan), but the Giants SUCK! And they lost one of their key players and leaders at a crucial point. Not to say we are any better right now. 2) The play calling is completely different for TH than Pat. Please tell me that yall see that. My only prayer is that this is not just being done for personel reasons, but for system reasons. This looks more like the offense at the first of the year. When we were winning. I'm all for being more confident in you players and giving more responsabilities, but I believe more in the old saying, "If it aint broke don't fix it!!" 3) Teams are not Blitzing. The second Pat went out of the game teams said, "We're going to make this new kid beat us." and stopped the blitzing. Which playes perfectly into the new (old) game plan. That will change next week. Again, None of this is directed toward TH. I really do like the kid. And I am not against a little healthy rivalry. But at least look at the facts. He!!, maybe TH will be the next "what did yall call Pat" Marino or Elway! LOL Bayougator Now here's my to cents to make four. 1. You're right, the Giants are in disarray....... o.k. (they suck) 2.If the playcalling is what is making us tick then why not call the same plays when Patrick's under center? And I keep preaching this: Arm strength isn't everything. So what he can throw it out of the stadium. It doesn't do us any good if LC is running a 5 yard out. Accuracy, timing and poise are the key ingredients for a great qb. 3.Teams ARE blitzing, but not as much because they know he's not going to hold on to the ball too long and he could make you pay. And the point about defenses stopping the the blitz is rediculous. If I'm a defensive Coord. and I know there is a green QB in there, I'm blitzing the sh!T out of him to rattle him and to keep him off balance. Much like we did against Palmer when he came in yesterday. By not blitzing you're not making him beat you, you're letting him beat you. TH has done a good job of taking what the defenses give him. To end I will say this, Pat's broke, and for right now, Tim's the fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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