ptr77 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Did I hit a nerve or something? You know I am right. Lol, you are half right, without a pass rush they don't win. Without Eli they don't win. So what exactly was your point? Any QB without certain pieces on his team doesn't win. Eli isn't special in that regard at all. Neither are any of the QBs in the history of pro football. None of them did it on their own. Just like the Giants defensive line didn't win the Superbowls on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticVillain Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This is my point. The question: Is Eli elite? I said yes and no. Brady, is elite. He can make all the throws and carried a team that was ranked 31st in total defense all the way to the Super Bowl. I don't know if you can say that for Eli Peyton is elite. Consistently put the team on his back and carried them to all sorts of wins. I can't say that for Eli. Brees is elite. You can say that all of his success is on Sean Payton, but you tell me a QB who is money on pretty much all of his throws. Eli is erratic. Big Ben used to be elite, but has slowed down. He won his Super Bowl to different ways, in 05 it was mostly defense, in 08, they flipped it on us. Then there is Rodgers. He is elite because he is the only QB in the league that can do pretty much everything. You need that back shoulder fade, he has it. Need to run a bootleg and throw a 10 yard strike for the first, he can do that too. You take Eli off the Giants, they could probably still compete. You take the previous QBs I discussed off of their teams and it could get ugly. Case in point, the 11' Colts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotalRecall Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 I saw this today. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/eli-hall-famer-not-according-kurt-warner-isn-153049663.html I get the impression that Kurt doesn't like Eli much. Maybe he's still bitter that Eli took his starting spot in NY Someone made a good comment to refute Warner's analysis. Compare Manning's career SO FAR to Troy Aikman (who is in the HOF). Even compared to John Elway, his numbers are pretty close. Warner seems to put a lot of emphasis on QB rating and completion percentage. Eli Manning's career QB rating of 82 and a career completion percentage of 58.4. Troy Aikman has a career QB rating of 81.6 and a career completion percentage of 61.5 (with arguably one of the best WR duos in history). John Elway has a career QB rating of 79.9 and a career completion percentage of 56.9. Also, Manning has 21 4thQ comebacks and 25 game-winning drives. Elway had 35 4thQ comebacks and 46 game-winning drives. Aikman had 16 4thQ comebacks and 21 game-winning drives. So the people who are saying "his team carries him"......this little tidbit tells a different story. Manning is a huge part of why the Giants have won 2 Super Bowls with him as their QB. The guy beat arguably the best team in the history of the NFL (undefeated Patriots) and then beat pretty much all the best teams in the league this year (GB, SF, and NE in consecutive weeks) and many people said this year's GB team was one of the best teams in history too!!! Manning gets no respect despite deserving a truckload of it. He threw 1, ONE INTERCEPTION in the playoffs this year. I'm not saying he's a no-doubt hall of famer. But if Aikman and Elway are in, unless he really regresses in the next 6-7 years, he should be too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptr77 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 This is my point. The question: Is Eli elite? I said yes and no. Brady, is elite. He can make all the throws and carried a team that was ranked 31st in total defense all the way to the Super Bowl. I don't know if you can say that for Eli Peyton is elite. Consistently put the team on his back and carried them to all sorts of wins. I can't say that for Eli. Brees is elite. You can say that all of his success is on Sean Payton, but you tell me a QB who is money on pretty much all of his throws. Eli is erratic. Big Ben used to be elite, but has slowed down. He won his Super Bowl to different ways, in 05 it was mostly defense, in 08, they flipped it on us. Then there is Rodgers. He is elite because he is the only QB in the league that can do pretty much everything. You need that back shoulder fade, he has it. Need to run a bootleg and throw a 10 yard strike for the first, he can do that too. You take Eli off the Giants, they could probably still compete. You take the previous QBs I discussed off of their teams and it could get ugly. Case in point, the 11' Colts. Matt Cassel and Matt Flynn say hello. The Packers offense and Patriots offense still managed to win games and put up points without their starting QBs. You really think David Carr is going to pull the giants to wins with the leagues worst run game and an offensive line giving up a league-leading amount of pressures? I don't. It's not like the giants had a defense carrying them all season either. Eli constantly puts his team on his back as evidenced by late game comebacks and game winning drives, but you don't really want to read up on those stats do you? Using your flawed criteria only Peyton and Brees are Elite. http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/31/pressure-and-the-2011-quarterbacks/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Matt Cassel and Matt Flynn say hello. The Packers offense and Patriots offense still managed to win games and put up points without their starting QBs. You really think David Carr is going to pull the giants to wins with the leagues worst run game and an offensive line giving up a league-leading amount of pressures? I don't. It's not like the giants had a defense carrying them all season either. Eli constantly puts his team on his back as evidenced by late game comebacks and game winning drives, but you don't really want to read up on those stats do you? Using your flawed criteria only Peyton and Brees are Elite.http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/01/31/pressure-and-the-2011-quarterbacks/ Elite doesn't come from one year - he wasn't even consistent this year... You can throw numbers out there all you want - Eli also isn't one to let the ball go quickly, they attack downfield which is why his pressure numbers are so high - he's holding the ball longer to allow the necessary separation from his receivers to get open. Also, that rebuttal above in regards to Kurt Warner is idiotic. Everyone knows numbers now are inflated more heavily than they were in the past. Also, an Elite QB doesn't turn the ball over 1.65 times a game throughout their career. He also fumbles the ball once every 2.9 times he's sacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TotalRecall Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Elite doesn't come from one year - he wasn't even consistent this year...You can throw numbers out there all you want - Eli also isn't one to let the ball go quickly, they attack downfield which is why his pressure numbers are so high - he's holding the ball longer to allow the necessary separation from his receivers to get open. Also, that rebuttal above in regards to Kurt Warner is idiotic. Everyone knows numbers now are inflated more heavily than they were in the past. Another thing, an Elite quarterback doesn't turn the ball over 1.5 times per game throughout their career. Funny how you undermine the meaning of stats in one sentence and then say today's stats are inflated compared to 10 to 20 years ago. That's "idiotic". How convenient that you would distance Eli's stats from 2 RECENT HOFer's stats, even though they are comparable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptr77 Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Elite doesn't come from one year - he wasn't even consistent this year...You can throw numbers out there all you want - Eli also isn't one to let the ball go quickly, they attack downfield which is why his pressure numbers are so high - he's holding the ball longer to allow the necessary separation from his receivers to get open. Also, that rebuttal above in regards to Kurt Warner is idiotic. Everyone knows numbers now are inflated more heavily than they were in the past. Also, an Elite QB doesn't turn the ball over 1.65 times a game throughout their career. He also fumbles the ball once every 2.9 times he's sacked. Not sure where you got 1.5. According to Pro football reference Eli would average 1.32 turnovers a game. Brett Favre would average 1.35. Brett Favre clearly was not elite either. Funny thing is, the amazing Drew Brees runs at 1.13 turnovers a game... Guess he isn't elite either. So what's the new criteria? All I'm looking for in anyone's argument on this subject is consistency. But when facts get in the way, people love to change the argument. First I hear from people how if you took Eli away the team would still win, which is laughable at best and hilarious since many "elite" QBs have backups that succeed and win when they are out (Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger). Now I hear it's Eli's fault he is always under pressure and he is a turnover machine well beyond the levels allowed for an "elite" player. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/F/FavrBr00.htm http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannEl00.htm http://www.nfl.com/player/elimanning/2505996/profile http://www.nfl.com/player/brettfavre/2500606/profile http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/2504775/profile Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Funny how you undermine the meaning of stats in one sentence and then say today's stats are inflated compared to 10 to 20 years ago. That's "idiotic". How convenient that you would distance Eli's stats from 2 RECENT HOFer's stats, even though they are comparable. please read the stats he showed...what's "idiotic" is people looking at a post by one person and assuming they know what is going on The stats I am providing are relevant, however, pressure stats are just numbers, there's not enough taken into the equation to determine anything. And they AREN'T comparable because they were in two different era's....stats were a lot different 15+ years ago compared to today and if you can't see or understand that then sorry Not sure where you got 1.5. According to Pro football reference Eli would average 1.32 turnovers a game. Brett Favre would average 1.35. Brett Favre clearly was not elite either. Funny thing is, the amazing Drew Brees runs at 1.33 turnovers a game... Guess he isn't elite either. So what's the new criteria? All I'm looking for in anyone's argument on this subject is consistency. But when facts get in the way, people love to change the argument. First I hear from people how if you took Eli away the team would still win, which is laughable at best and hilarious since many "elite" QBs have backups that succeed and win when they are out (Brady, Rodgers, Roethlisberger). Now I hear it's Eli's fault he is always under pressure and he is a turnover machine well beyond the levels allowed for an "elite" player. ] The number of attempts are far greater with the 2 quarterbacks you mentioned, therefore the numbers are going to be higher I never said take Eli out and that team would be the same...I think he's good but not elite. And my fault on that, it's 1.35 per game - I was including total fumbles in my number and no "lost," because technically that should count as a loss of possession by the QB (it all comes with taking care of the ball no matter if you the bounces fall your way or not) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve09ru Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 And the last point I'm going to make is his career .580 win pct. I respect that everyone has their own opinion and these debates are just going back in forth with 2 different views. It's getting really repetitive. So, to each his own Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirt Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Matt Cassel and Matt Flynn say hello. sdfhasgdsgdf WHO THE HELL IS MATT FLYNN???? lol I'm sorry to butt in, but this is just driving me CRAZY. Even like some of the big 'expert' talking heads are convinced 7th round draft pick Matt Flynn is a franchise QB. WHY WHY WHY? Because the Packers offense is really good? People were saying this BEFORE his super good game at the end of the year, and that was, what, his SECOND start?? In a meaningless week 17 game. As far as I'm concerned, Matt Flynn is in the same boat as any other backup, or QB drafted in the 6th or 7th round. I've said it before, I'll say it again: if you believe Matt Flynn is a franchise QB that can lead your team to the Super Bowl, then you believe that he will be a bigger anomaly than Tom Brady. /rant #whothe****ismattflynn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ptr77 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 sdfhasgdsgdfWHO THE HELL IS MATT FLYNN???? lol I'm sorry to butt in, but this is just driving me CRAZY. Even like some of the big 'expert' talking heads are convinced 7th round draft pick Matt Flynn is a franchise QB. WHY WHY WHY? Because the Packers offense is really good? People were saying this BEFORE his super good game at the end of the year, and that was, what, his SECOND start?? In a meaningless week 17 game. As far as I'm concerned, Matt Flynn is in the same boat as any other backup, or QB drafted in the 6th or 7th round. I've said it before, I'll say it again: if you believe Matt Flynn is a franchise QB that can lead your team to the Super Bowl, then you believe that he will be a bigger anomaly than Tom Brady. /rant #whothe****ismattflynn Oh I don't believe he will be anything less than Kevin Kolb or more than Matt Schaub. I was using him as an example of a team with an "elite" QB that didn't miss a beat when he took over as QB on multiple occasions. Flynn will get his payday and probably be the next Chad Henne in terms of talent IMO. But you never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pjfootballer Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Ask me after Eli has been retired for 5 years and I might admit it. While he's still in uniform, I can't do it. Good QB? Yes. Elite? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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