Daily Caller: One Nation, Under Fraud (Friendly Warning: The Foreclosure Mess is About to Get a Lot Worse, and That Will Affect You) (New Update in Post #508)

[twa]

I believe they said 1/3 on the market

I agree it is overblown,though it is gonna cost some serious bucks and gum up the system.

When major title insurers call a halt ya got more than a little problem.

[AsburySkinsFan]

So this peaked my interest more and I was reading up on it.

First - Those saying 1/3 homes are in foreclosure are smoking crack! It under 5%!

http://www.floordaily.net/Flooring-News/Percentage_of_Homes_in_Foreclosure_Fell_in_Q2.aspx

(And I think it was about another 5% of homes are falling behind...but thats still then 10%.)

2nd - Big article in the post yesterday about Florida judges doing these foreclosures, most are still going thru unless there is proven fraud. Judges are basically ruling that if the paperwork was done in good faith - Good enough.

Even the ones with fraud are usually simply being required to go back and getting the paperwork completed. This seems like it is going to delay foreclosures, and bring down home values even more as Banks are pushed to settle, short sale, and forgive loan amounts faster then they would have liked to....but everything else sure seems to be nothing but alarmist.....

Yep as I feared, the benefit of the doubt is being given to the banks even though they are presenting fraudulent paperwork. I sure hope I get the same treatment by the law, but I certainly won't be holding my breath because I don't have billions of dollars.

BTW, 5% of homes in forclosure is a lot.

[twa]

Yep as I feared, the benefit of the doubt is being given to the banks even though they are presenting fraudulent paperwork. I sure hope I get the same treatment by the law, but I certainly won't be holding my breath because I don't have billions of dollars.

Ya want better treatment?...get a better lawyer.

Can't beat the system w/o using the system.

[twa]

Ya want better treatment?...get a better lawyer.

Can't beat the system w/o using the system.

added

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39686897

Here’s what is going to happen: Congress will pass a law called something like “The Financial Modernization and Stability Act of 2010” that will retroactively grant mortgage pools the rights in the underlying mortgages that people are worried about. All the screwed up paperwork, lost notes, unassigned security interests will be forgiven by a legislative act.

..

The put-back crisis is not driven by economics. It is driven by legal rights. And there’s simply zero probability that the politicians in Washington are going to let Bank of America or Citigroup or JP Morgan Chase fail because of a legal issue.

So here’s what I expect will happen. The lame duck session of Congress will pass a bill that essentially papers over the misdeeds of the banks that originated mortgage securities. Every member of Congress and every Senator who has been voted out of office will cast a vote for the bill. And the President will sign it.

...

If you’re skeptical about the possibility that this will happen, you have greater faith than I do in the ability of the political system to resist doing favors for bankers.

[AsburySkinsFan]

added

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39686897

All the screwed up paperwork, lost notes, unassigned security interests will be forgiven by a legislative act.

My guess is that in order for me to get this same treatment I'm gonna need more than just a lawyer, 99.9% of citizens of this country don't get this type of protection the only way you get Senators to come to your rescue when you're the one that screwed the pooch is to have a ton of money, the rest of us get a shrug and a form letter from our Senators.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Can't beat the system.

You said it.

[Hubbs]

Yes, twa, I saw that CNBC article by John Carney, and he's smoking crack. There's a reason some people in the financial media refer to the network as CNBS. It's no different than the Wall Street Journal, which ran the absolutely extraordinary claim the other day that "there hasn't been one case" of wrongful foreclosure generated by this bad paperwork. I couldn't ****ing believe it. Their editors would need all of five seconds on Google to know that wasn't true.

[Larry]

What Peter and others keep saying is that, at the end of the day, the original bank that created the loan will be able to prove that it's owed money. What I'm saying is that's not true.

And people keep pointing out that you're wrong. And pointing out why you're wrong. And you keep ignoring them.

I buy a house, with a mortgage from Bank 1. That mortgage is then sold to Bank 2, Bank 3, Bank 4, and so on.

Years later, Bank 7 attempts to foreclose, and discovers that they don't have the paperwork they need.

Well, it's guaranteed that Bank 1 has the paperwork they need. The paperwork they need is on file, down at the courthouse.

Judge: "Can Bank 1 prove that they have a mortgage on this property?"

Bank 1: "Absolutely, Your Honor. Here's the original documentation. Which was filed with the Clerk of the Court on the day of the closing, and has been in the court's possession, continuously, ever since."

[AsburySkinsFan]

And people keep pointing out that you're wrong. And pointing out why you're wrong. And you keep ignoring them.

I buy a house, with a mortgage from Bank 1. That mortgage is then sold to Bank 2, Bank 3, Bank 4, and so on.

Years later, Bank 7 attempts to foreclose, and discovers that they don't have the paperwork they need.

Well, it's guaranteed that Bank 1 has the paperwork they need. The paperwork they need is on file, down at the courthouse.

Judge: "Can Bank 1 prove that they have a mortgage on this property?"

Bank 1: "Absolutely, Your Honor. Here's the original documentation. Which was filed with the Clerk of the Court on the day of the closing, and has been in the court's possession, continuously, ever since."

So are you saying that Bank 1 is going to try and get paid for the mortage twice?

They sold the mortage to Bank 2 and were compesated for it all the way down the line to Bank 7 which is the one that is actually owed the money because they were the ones who paid Bank 6. Every bank 1-6 has been paid they can't get paid twice, what's more is that they should have the documentation that shows that they've been paid.

[Larry]

Except that's not what I'm not saying.

What I am saying is that the home owner will never be able to prove they paid the mortgage..

If they don't pay the mortgage, they'll never be able to prove that the property isn't collateraol on some loan that is outstanding (because it will be).

And issuing a new title won't change that. Titles have problems because of things like duplicate claims on properties (which is why we have title insurance) (but you haven't posted anything where anybody has suggested issuing new titles anyway).

And nobody is disagreeing with the claim that there has been massive fraud. That doesn't mean that people that don't their mortgages will ever be in the free and clear.

I may be able to re-state Peter's point, and perhaps clarify it. (Then again, it's possible that I'm not understanding Peter, and I'm just making things up, too.)

Down at the courthouse, there are two documents on file.

One document says that John Doe owns this property.

The other document says that Bank 1 is owed $200K, and holds a lien against the property in that amount.

That second document will never go away, until Bank 1 files another document, saying "this loan has been paid in full, and therefore this lien is no longer in effect."

John Doe may be able to avoid being kicked out of his home. He may be able to stay in it for 20 years without ever making a single payment. But he will never own that property (as in "own, free and clear"), until Bank 1 says he does.

[Hubbs]

My guess is that in order for me to get this same treatment I'm gonna need more than just a lawyer, 99.9% of citizens of this country don't get this type of protection the only way you get Senators to come to your rescue when you're the one that screwed the pooch is to have a ton of money, the rest of us get a shrug and a form letter from our Senators.

Why do you think some of us want to expand Congress?

[Hubbs]

And people keep pointing out that you're wrong. And pointing out why you're wrong. And you keep ignoring them.

I buy a house, with a mortgage from Bank 1. That mortgage is then sold to Bank 2, Bank 3, Bank 4, and so on.

Years later, Bank 7 attempts to foreclose, and discovers that they don't have the paperwork they need.

Well, it's guaranteed that Bank 1 has the paperwork they need. The paperwork they need is on file, down at the courthouse.

Judge: "Can Bank 1 prove that they have a mortgage on this property?"

Bank 1: "Absolutely, Your Honor. Here's the original documentation. Which was filed with the Clerk of the Court on the day of the closing, and has been in the court's possession, continuously, ever since."

I really have no idea how to tell you what I'm trying to tell you at this point. Over and over again, I've kept saying that no, it's not actually guaranteed that Bank 1 has the paperwork they need. In fact, Bank 1 has explicitly told you that they don't have the paperwork they need. You can choose not to believe them, and I guess that means I'll be laughing all the way to the bank while you make like Uncle Pennybags in those "I lost money and I can't figure out why" Monopoly cards. But it wouldn't be wise for you to do so. I would guess that you might be slightly more willing to consider the possibility of the paperwork not existing when the stocks of every major bank pull a Bear Stearns and go from $20 to $2. They've lost a lot in the past week. There's a reason for that.

The paperwork doesn't exist. If you're willing to consider that possibility, we can move forward.

[Larry]

So are you saying that Bank 1 is going to try and get paid for the mortage twice?

They sold the mortage to Bank 2 and were compesated for it all the way down the line to Bank 7 which is the one that is actually owed the money because they were the ones who paid Bank 6. Every bank 1-6 has been paid they can't get paid twice, what's more is that they should have the documentation that shows that they've been paid.

I'm saying that just because Bank 5 can't prove that they bought the mortgage from Bank 4, doesn't mean that John Doe now owns his house free and clear, and he doesn't have to make any payments at all, to anybody.

There may be a question as to exactly who he owes money to. But it's guaranteed that he owes it to somebody.

[twa]

Yes, twa, I saw that CNBC article by John Carney, and he's smoking crack. .

He's smoking crack because he agrees with you ,yet believes Congress will intervene?

That's reality :2cents:the only question is exactly how and what cover will be used and how much flesh they will demand.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm saying that just because Bank 5 can't prove that they bought the mortgage from Bank 4, doesn't mean that John Doe now owns his house free and clear, and he doesn't have to make any payments at all, to anybody.

There may be a question as to exactly who he owes money to. But it's guaranteed that he owes it to somebody.

Oh I agree but that doesn't mean that Bank 1 can then claim it twice, and unless a bank can prove that they legally hold the mortage then they aren't owed anything. Otherwise I could draft fraudulent documentation and make an equally legal claim to the same payment. So how do they determine who is owed the money?

[Hubbs]

I may be able to re-state Peter's point, and perhaps clarify it. (Then again, it's possible that I'm not understanding Peter, and I'm just making things up, too.)

Down at the courthouse, there are two documents on file.

One document says that John Doe owns this property.

The other document says that Bank 1 is owed $200K, and holds a lien against the property in that amount.

That second document will never go away, until Bank 1 files another document, saying "this loan has been paid in full, and therefore this lien is no longer in effect."

John Doe may be able to avoid being kicked out of his home. He may be able to stay in it for 20 years without ever making a single payment. But he will never own that property (as in "own, free and clear"), until Bank 1 says he does.

Bank 1 was already paid the $200K.

Care to re-evaluate your position?

[Hubbs]

He's smoking crack because he agrees with you ,yet believes Congress will intervene?

That's reality :2cents:the only question is exactly how and what cover will be used and how much flesh they will demand.

He's smoking crack because he believes that Congress will pass a law that says, "MBS holders will be granted mortgages completely at random according to whichever judge is on the job today."

No one will support that law. No one. And I keep trying to tell you why that law is the law that will have to be passed for Carney to be right.

[Hubbs]

I'm saying that just because Bank 5 can't prove that they bought the mortgage from Bank 4, doesn't mean that John Doe now owns his house free and clear, and he doesn't have to make any payments at all, to anybody.

There may be a question as to exactly who he owes money to. But it's guaranteed that he owes it to somebody.

Yes. It is. That guarantee isn't enough, and the courts have said so.

What more do you want? A wacky waving inflatable arm-flailing tubeman that holds a sign telling you that proving that homeowners owe "somebody" isn't enough?

[Larry]

I really have no idea how to tell you what I'm trying to tell you at this point. Over and over again, I've kept saying that no, it's not actually guaranteed that Bank 1 has the paperwork they need. In fact, Bank 1 has explicitly told you that they don't have the paperwork they need. You can choose not to believe them, and I guess that means I'll be laughing all the way to the bank while you make like Uncle Pennybags in those "I lost money and I can't figure out why" Monopoly cards. But it wouldn't be wise for you to do so. I would guess that you might be slightly more willing to consider the possibility of the paperwork not existing when the stocks of every major bank pull a Bear Stearns and go from $20 to $2. They've lost a lot in the past week. There's a reason for that.

The paperwork doesn't exist. If you're willing to consider that possibility, we can move forward.

Then please explain to all of us exactly at what point the documents that have been filed at the courthouse magically disappeared.

[twa]

Bank 1 was already paid the $200K.

Care to re-evaluate your position?

But what happened to the lien?

Till it is released it does not matter if the loan is paid

added

I give up till perhaps a bump in six months

[AsburySkinsFan]

But what happened to the lien?

Till it is released it does not matter if the loan is paid

Whoever holds the lien is owed. Not Bank 1 as they've already been paid, no just court would ever rule that Bank 1 has the right to be paid twice for the same property.

[Larry]

Bank 1 was already paid the $200K.

Care to re-evaluate your position?

And filed the release of mortgage letter, down at the courthouse?

[Hubbs]

Then please explain to all of us exactly at what point the documents that have been filed at the courthouse magically disappeared.

When they told the Florida Supreme Court that they had "disappeared" the documents.

I don't know what else you want. A giant neon sign? A full-page ad taken out in your newspaper of choice that says, "Hey guys, we shredded your mortgage documents"?

But what happened to the lien?

Till it is released it does not matter if the loan is paid

added

I give up till perhaps a bump in six months

The lien is dependent upon Bank 1 receiving $200K, which it already did.

You can give up for six months. My guess - and it's only a guess, because it's based on timing - is that enough court action will happen in those six months to make me a lot richer and you a lot poorer. I'll happily tell you how to become a lot richer after those six months. All it takes is you being willing to listen.

Whoever holds the lien is owed. Not Bank 1 as they've already been paid, no just court would ever rule that Bank 1 has the right to be paid twice for the same property.

Does anyone want to listen to ASF instead of me? Because he's telling you what will ultimately be the same thing that I'm telling you.

[Larry]

Bank 1 was already paid the $200K.

Judge: Paid by whom?

[Larry]

When they told the Florida Supreme Court that they had "disappeared" the documents.

I don't know what else you want. A giant neon sign? A full-page ad taken out in your newspaper of choice that says, "Hey guys, we shredded your mortgage documents"?

Less smart ass and insults, and an actual fact?

A document is on file, down at the courthouse.

You keep claiming, without any support whatsoever, that no, it isn't. That it doesn't exist.