Review/Preview 2004 vs 2010 QB Debate (Rivers and Manning vs Bradford and Claussen)

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Well played. I thus concede that Rivers and Manning were better prospects than Clausen.

It's not just that Clausen's defenses were bad - it was that they were unclutch. 3 of his losses, including the one to ranked Stanford, were on late 4th quarter touchdowns. He also took 2 sacks a game, and while not horrendous, it wasn't good too.

I only see one big-time win there, over FSU btw - he only scored 17 against Clemson, and you don't think the USC loss would be up there scoring-wise with the OSU had the WR not slipped and missed an easy TD?

Also, Clausen was a junior, Rivers was a 4 year starting senior. Comparing Rivers' junior stats to Clausen's junior stats is futile. While I discount the impact of staying an extra year on NFL success, staying an extra year WILL have an effect on numbers, especially since the line gets another year to improve, a better coach than Weis comes in with a new defensive staff, and he retains Kelly and Rudolph. Had Clausen stayed, he may have been poised to make another big jump in numbers AND wins. That's water under the bridge though - he didn't.

The wins, and the lack of big wins IS a major concern. But the combination of the defense losing games for him, as well as the fact that he didn't choke in big games (he was subpar against Pitt) leads me to believe that referring to him as a "loser" is a major stretch.

Putting up 27 points is okay enough to win. Putting up 33 SHOULD get you the win against UConn. And if you put up 38 and lose, there is no way in the world it is the QB's fault.

[Laron Burgundy]

To be fair on the USC loss, Clausen was playing against a true freshman qb on a team whose defense was gutted by the draft and at his own stadium. That doesn't quite compare to playing the defending BCS champions, at their stadium, during a strong year for them.

And what did Rivers do his junior year? 63% completion rate with 20-10 td-int and 3353 yards on 8 ypa. Not terrible by any means. He was also 11-3 with wins against #17 Notre Dame, and #21 Florida State. Admittedly, his defense and running game played better that year than his senior year.

I admit Clausen isn't a BAD prospect by any means, but I dunno if I really want him with our 4th pick. It bothers me that Mayock doesn't even place him as a first round talent. I have to wonder how much he's maxed his potential, the same was asked about Peyton I suppose, but Peyton was also a much better prospect overall. I don't think he'll bust like Jamarcus Russell, not even close, but I have to wonder if he'll end up looking a lot like Brady Quinn. Yeah yeah, Clausen supporters claim Quinn was terrible, but that's safe to say now. Going into the draft Quinn looked like he should have been a good player. He was actually a senior, unlike Clausen, AND he actually won games, unlike Clausen. He also had less talent around him on offense than Clausen. I just don't see enough to separate Clausen and Quinn to say one will be a great nfl qb while the other is struggling to even stay on a roster.

See, that's why I'm not even completely against drafting Tebow in the second round. He was far more successful than his predecessor, Alex Smith, and Alex Smith has, at times, played decently in the nfl despite having a subpar line and nobody to throw the ball to (until recently). Clausen's predecessor played horribly for a team with one of the top o-lines in the league and with pretty solid skill players (before they gutted themselves). Of course everyone is an individual and makes it by on their own merits, but when teams have a history of producing a first round qb prospects, or prospects at other positions, I have to look at their history. It's the reason I would be very against us drafting an OSU linebacker or an LSU d-lineman. Stereotypes aren't fair, but sometimes they fit.

[Mahons21]

So now we are comparing college to the NFL. Now we are comparing a college BOY with two first round talent WR's playing against weak defenses to an NFL MAN with no #1 WR facing the best defenders on the globe. OH MY GOODNESS! NO YOU DID NOT JUST DO THAT!

-Not comparing College to the NFL in any way, shape or form. A 7:1 TD/INT ratio is good for college, hence the reason Clausen is one of the top prospects despite being on a losing team. A 4:3 TD/INT ratio, is rather average in the NFL, add in 13 fumbles, and the numbers become worst. Clausen was one of the best QB's in College despite being on a bad team, Campbell was not one of the best QB's in the NFL despite being on a bad team.

-You also leave out that Clausen was consistently playing from behind, making his job more difficult as a QB. Jason had the benefit of a top flight defense that was able to keep the Redskins in the game, not forcing them into a one-dimensional pass only offense (which makes the defenses job much easier, DE's can pin there ears back, more people can drop into the secondary etc.)

-Two first round talent WR's? What credible source has Floyd going in the 1st round? Majority that I have seen have Tate going in the end of the 1st(some don't even him in the 1st), and thats it.

-We are yet to see what either of these WR's will do without Clausen throwing them the ball, so lets wait and see. WR's can be made to look better than they really are with a good QB. There's a reason Peyton Manning's WR's have consistently good #'s and its not because Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon are all-world talents.

-In addition WR's can be made to look worst than they actually are, from poor QB play. Which could be the case of Moss. I've seen perform at the level of a top 3 WR with a different person playing QB, can't say the same but vice-versa for Campbell.

-Best defenders on the globe? Did you see our schedule last season? And if your making the case that they play in the NFL, which makes them the best players on the globe, than Campbell's supporting cast was made up of the best players on the globe, so lets not venture down that road.

-If you wouldn't mind I would also appreciate a few links for the info from your posts above, not questioning whether its true or not, I would just like to delve a little deeper, and I can't find the stats/game logs anywhere for Rivers college career.

[Mahons21]

And what did Rivers do his junior year? 63% completion rate with 20-10 td-int and 3353 yards on 8 ypa. Not terrible by any means. He was also 11-3 with wins against #17 Notre Dame, and #21 Florida State. Admittedly, his defense and running game played better that year than his senior year.

-is this the same florida st game that Rivers threw for O TD's and less than 200 yards?

EDIT**Please do update me with a link for where you are finding his game logs, seems like you might be leaving out some key bits of information.

[Laron Burgundy]

-is this the same florida st game that Rivers threw for O TD's and less than 200 yards?

EDIT**Please do update me with a link for where you are finding his game logs, seems like you might be leaving out some key bits of information.

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2002/Internet/ranking_summary/2002000000490.HTML

Can't access the game from that, so I dunno. Maybe haha, you can't be awesome every game.

[The Robert Griffin Experience]

Well, Clausen and Quinn are different prospects. Despite what has been said about Clausen's arm strength, Quinn is a true "noodle-arm" who simply cannot stretch a defense deep (keep in mind Clausen had torn ligaments in the big toe of his plant foot), while Clausen is average to above average. Quinn is also not nearly as accurate as Clausen (forget the numbers - Clausen is just a more accurate thrower on every level). Clausen is also far better in dealing with pressure than Quinn was - Quinn often got happy feet when the rush came.)

Basically, Clausen is a tad better athletically, but is much more accurate and probably better against the rush. He also has dealt with a lot more pressure in terms of expectations and in team adversity.

Quinn was also another QB with personality issues (say what you want about the douche thing, but Quinn was more interested in endorsements than studying film, and there's at least some evidence that Clausen was a hard worker in college.)

I don't really think Quinn is a bust yet anyway - he was badly mishandled by Cleveland, and desperately needs a fresh start. He's had 12 starts loooooooool.

Also, it's virtually impossible to find pre 2004 game logs for some reason.

[Mahons21]

http://web1.ncaa.org/d1mfb/2002/Internet/ranking_summary/2002000000490.HTML

Can't access the game from that, so I dunno. Maybe haha, you can't be awesome every game.

Appreciate the link man, when I have some more time I'm going to look into it.

-I understand you can't be awesome every game, but at the same time, how much credit does Rivers deserve for 170 yds and no TD's.

[Morneblade]

So now we are comparing college to the NFL. Now we are comparing a college BOY with two first round talent WR's playing against weak defenses to an NFL MAN with no #1 WR facing the best defenders on the globe. OH MY GOODNESS! NO YOU DID NOT JUST DO THAT!:silly::pfft:

With the worst OL in the league and terrible, predictable play calling. It's not a very good comparison. At least Clausen had legitament coaching and playcalling, as well as some pretty impressive recruiting classes. ND was not as devoid of talent as some would lead you to believe.

In the end, I think that Clausen will bust. More of a gut feeling than anything though, there isnt anything really concrete that says he will. He certainly is the most prepared QB coming out. Played in a Pro system for 3 years and under a pretty highly regarded Offensice coach. He is very polished and wont need much work. I just dont see him making the jump to the next level.

[Mahons21]

With the worst OL in the league and terrible, predictable play calling. It's not a very good comparison. At least Clausen had legitament coaching and playcalling, as well as some pretty impressive recruiting classes. ND was not as devoid of talent as some would lead you to believe.

-I was not comparing the two QB's. Someone asserted that it was hypocritical to bash Campbell and yet support Clausen.

Post #16

Thank YOU! It's funny how these people defend Clausen and bash Campbell for the same thing. Hypocrisy is a *****

-I was stating it isn't hypocritical, because Clausen contributed far more to his team. Do you believe if Campbell had been one of the top 5 QB's this year, but we still had a losing season there would be as much bashing?

In the end, I think that Clausen will bust. More of a gut feeling than anything though, there isnt anything really concrete that says he will. He certainly is the most prepared QB coming out. Played in a Pro system for 3 years and under a pretty highly regarded Offensice coach. He is very polished and wont need much work. I just dont see him making the jump to the next level.

-And your entitled to your opinion, I think a lot of people have the same gut feeling as you because of the demeanor Clausen has shown in the past. I know I for one thought he was a complete tool, his first year even year and a half. Then I started to objectively view the guy (give him a chance), and I realized he can really play the QB position, even in a pro-style offense. There aren't going to be a bunch of fumbled exchanges with the center, he's already going to have a pretty quick drop back after years of practice opposed to someone just learning how to get the proper explosion off the snap. There isn't a throw Clausen can't make, and he has some great pocket presence. Maybe his game won't translate to the NFL, but at this point there is nothing to suggest that is the case.

-Is there some necessary QB talent you believe Clausen doesn't possess?

[skinzwiz]

oooooooooooops

[skinzwiz]

-Not comparing College to the NFL in any way, shape or form. A 7:1 TD/INT ratio is good for college, hence the reason Clausen is one of the top prospects despite being on a losing team. A 4:3 TD/INT ratio, is rather average in the NFL, add in 13 fumbles, and the numbers become worst. Clausen was one of the best QB's in College despite being on a bad team, Campbell was not one of the best QB's in the NFL despite being on a bad team.

But you are comparing college stats with NFL stats. That is not credible. Why do you think college QB's can shine and then suck in the NFL. Even JaMarcus Russell was decent in college.

-You also leave out that Clausen was consistently playing from behind, making his job more difficult as a QB. Jason had the benefit of a top flight defense that was able to keep the Redskins in the game, not forcing them into a one-dimensional pass only offense (which makes the defenses job much easier, DE's can pin there ears back, more people can drop into the secondary etc.)

This had nothing to do with what I was discussing, but I will add my two cents. It has been widely reported that the skins offense was predictable under Zorn...

-Two first round talent WR's? What credible source has Floyd going in the 1st round? Majority that I have seen have Tate going in the end of the 1st(some don't even him in the 1st), and thats it.

-We are yet to see what either of these WR's will do without Clausen throwing them the ball, so lets wait and see. WR's can be made to look better than they really are with a good QB. There's a reason Peyton Manning's WR's have consistently good #'s and its not because Austin Collie and Pierre Garcon are all-world talents.

Floyd was the #1 option at Notre Dame and if Tate is a first rounder, it is logical to conclude Floyd will be in the future. No one is projecting his stock yet.

--Best defenders on the globe? Did you see our schedule last season? And if your making the case that they play in the NFL, which makes them the best players on the globe, than Campbell's supporting cast was made up of the best players on the globe, so lets not venture down that road.

My point is NFL defenses are much better than college defenses. Is that hard to understand? Redskins offense are among the best on globe because they are pros, but they are not nearly the best in the NFL...you know that.

-If you wouldn't mind I would also appreciate a few links for the info from your posts above, not questioning whether its true or not, I would just like to delve a little deeper, and I can't find the stats/game logs anywhere for Rivers college career.

I didnt bring up that topic bro.

[Going Commando]

-Clausen had 28 TD's and 4 INT's on a bad team that didn't have much success. Campbell had 20 TD's, 15 INT's and an additional 13 fumbles on a bad team that didn't achieve much success. Do you see the glaring difference?

Clausen was playing an easy schedule at the college level?

[Passizle]

We will not draft a QB. Book it. We'll just say a little bird told me.

Edit. At least, not with the 4th pick.

[Mahons21]

But you are comparing college stats with NFL stats. That is not credible. Why do you think college QB's can shine and then suck in the NFL. Even JaMarcus Russell was decent in college.

-I'm not trying to make a direct comparison with the stats, sorry for being confusing. Maybe I can make my point more clear by stating, Clausen was a top Qb in college despite playing on a bad team, Campbell was not a top rated QB despite playing on a bad team. Had Campbell been say, a top 10 QB this season, I don't think people would give him as much blame as he currently receives. Surely we can agree on that much?

This had nothing to do with what I was discussing, but I will add my two cents. It has been widely reported that the skins offense was predictable under Zorn...

-And I could say the talent and Notre Dame was grossly mishandled by Weis, but getting into a long list of excuses/reasons why isn't what I want to do. We have both heard the excuses for both QB's more than enough times, no point in going through them again.

Floyd was the #1 option at Notre Dame and if Tate is a first rounder, it is logical to conclude Floyd will be in the future. No one is projecting his stock yet.

-Golden Tate, is a possible end of the 1st round. We are yet to see what Floyd will look like with at Jimmy. Could he flourish, yes. But he could also look much worst and end up a 2nd day pick or worse.

My point is NFL defenses are much better than college defenses. Is that hard to understand? Redskins offense are among the best on globe because they are pros, but they are not nearly the best in the NFL...you know that.

And NFL offense are better than college offenses. Had Clausen been playing with an all-pro NFL line, and had Chris Johnson in his backfield with Antonio Gates as his TE it would be one thing. But he didn't.

No our offense wasn't the greatest this season, but how about some of the D's we played against. STL, TB, DET, OAK, KC, trust me they are not nearly the best in the NFL.

I didnt bring up that topic bro.

-My biscuit.

[Mahons21]

Clausen was playing an easy schedule at the college level?

Campbell was playing an easy schedule at the NFL level?

If you average out our entire schedule, the teams we played against don't even have a record of .500

[Mahons21]

We will not draft a QB. Book it. We'll just say a little bird told me.

Edit. At least, not with the 4th pick.

-I have full-faith that our FO will make the right decision for this team and will stand behind whatever it is. From my own evaluation which isn't even comparable to an NFL analyst that can't get a job as a coach, I think Clausen would be the best choice. But who really knows, this is the NFL draft we're talking about here, anything can happen.