Madison Redskin Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 I agree. If Shanahan wants the 3-4 defensive scheme, he will get the players for it. I've seen numerous posters make the same claim. However, not a single poster has said where Shanahan would get such players. The list of UNRESTRICTED free agents who play defense is remarkably bad. How happy would you be if Shanny spent a few high draft picks on defensive players, when we have needs at QB, RB, LT, C, RG, and RT (among others)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 This is the damn truth. Except Daniels isn't too small and would be switching primarily to a 3 technique, not 5. Also, the transition wouldn't be as difficult now as it was 2-3 years ago. I've seen numerous posters make the same claim. However, not a single poster has said where Shanahan would get such players. The list of UNRESTRICTED free agents who play defense is remarkably bad. How happy would you be if Shanny spent a few high draft picks on defensive players, when we have needs at QB, RB, LT, C, RG, and RT (among others)? As I said earlier, we only need one (maybe two) more player(s) to fill out a starting 3-4 lineup. Trading away the players who do not fit would also give us the option of being able to spend a pick or two on defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh90286 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 I've seen numerous posters make the same claim. However, not a single poster has said where Shanahan would get such players. The list of UNRESTRICTED free agents who play defense is remarkably bad. How happy would you be if Shanny spent a few high draft picks on defensive players, when we have needs at QB, RB, LT, C, RG, and RT (among others)? According to LaCanfora, link here: http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d81423860&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true , there are some good 3-4 guys that will be available. Vince Wilfork or Casey Hampton would be a good fit at nose tackle while moving Haynesworth to DE to create mismatch problems. Jarvis Green or Travis Kierschke would also be a good start. Larry Foote, Kampman, and Vrabel also look to be upcoming free agents. There is 3-4 talent out there, and we have the money to go get them if we wanted to go to that scheme. LDE - Haynesworth NT - Wilfork RDE - Daniels / Jarmon (he can add bulk for the change) OLB - Orakpo MLB - Fletcher / Vrabel (moved inside in 05 so he is able to do it) MLB - Foote OLB - Vrabel or use Wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 As I said earlier, we only need one (maybe two) more player(s) to fill out a starting 3-4 lineup. Trading away the players who do not fit would also give us the option of being able to spend a pick or two on defense. I respectfully disagree. I would argue that we don't have a single player who could play MLB in a 3-4 scheme very well. Fletcher, Blades, and McIntosh are too small for a 3-4. I would also argue that we don't have a 3-4 NT. I suppose Haynesworth could fill that role, although I don't think he'd be too happy about it. I also think we lack DEs to play a 3-4 scheme; Golston is a marginal guy and Daniels is on his last legs. Andre Carter hated playing OLB in a 3-4 and wasn't very good playing in that scheme anyways. Jeremy Jarmon isn't fast and agile enough to play OLB, but is too weak and small to play DE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 According to LaCanfora, link here: http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d81423860&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true , there are some good 3-4 guys that will be available.Vince Wilfork or Casey Hampton would be a good fit at nose tackle while moving Haynesworth to DE to create mismatch problems. Jarvis Green or Travis Kierschke would also be a good start. Larry Foote, Kampman, and Vrabel also look to be upcoming free agents. There is 3-4 talent out there, and we have the money to go get them if we wanted to go to that scheme. LDE - Haynesworth NT - sign Wilfork RDE - Daniels / Jarmon (he can add bulk for the change) OLB - Orakpo MLB - Fletcher / Blades MLB - McIntosh or sign Vrabel (moved inside in 05 so he is able to do it) OLB - sign Foote or use Wilson Haynesworth would probably make a very good DE in a 3-4 scheme, but I don't see the Patriots letting Wilfork go, Daniels was on his last legs last season, Jarmon wasn't very strong as a 4-3 end, McIntosh and Fletcher are tiny MLBs who would get swallowed up in a 3-4, and I don't trust Wilson to do much beyond playing ST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohioskinsfan Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I personally do not care for the 3-4. I do not think we have the LB for it. I liked seeing Rak w/his hand in the dirt. Wilfork leaving would be a surprise also. I further believe if we didn't have so many holes elsewhere, maybe we could justify taking players in the draft to convert. But with our current needs, I do not think we should "waste" draft picks just to switch schemes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh90286 Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 Haynesworth would probably make a very good DE in a 3-4 scheme, but I don't see the Patriots letting Wilfork go, Daniels was on his last legs last season, Jarmon wasn't very strong as a 4-3 end, McIntosh and Fletcher are tiny MLBs who would get swallowed up in a 3-4, and I don't trust Wilson to do much beyond playing ST. I believe that Fletcher can play ILB in a 3-4. I believe he could play any position asked well. Foote is an ILB so he would replace McIntosh. So it would be Orakpo, Foote, Fletcher, and Vrabel or Wilson across the linebacker squad. That would be a very stout group. Daniels would be able to hold his own at DE as he is currently used as a run stopper now and moves inside routinely. Don't forget that we also have Griffin and could rotate him with Daniels at the DE position. Jarmon would be a reserve as he bulked up and learned the position. You say the Patriots won't let Wilfork go but he still doesn't have a deal. Either way, we would also have Casey Hampton as a backup plan who is solid. Wilson would be able to rotate in with an older Vrabel and contribute strictly as a pass rusher while Vrabel would be in coverage and run situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I respectfully disagree. I would argue that we don't have a single player who could play MLB in a 3-4 scheme very well. Fletcher, Blades, and McIntosh are too small for a 3-4. I agree on McIntosh, would suspect we would want to trade him. I disagree on Fletcher and Blades. Both are vertically challenged in any scheme but are downright thick (heftier than most 3-4 MLBs). I would also argue that we don't have a 3-4 NT. I suppose Haynesworth could fill that role, although I don't think he'd be too happy about it. I agree here as well. Haynesworth might actually be good at it but I'm not entirely sure if he'd be content there. Placing him at DE, though, would likely alleviate some concerns and we could conceivably use him as a hybrid player like Haloti Ngata. I also think we lack DEs to play a 3-4 scheme; Golston is a marginal guy and Daniels is on his last legs. Golston is a backup in this situation, Daniels might actually benefit as the position caters to his strengths. Andre Carter hated playing OLB in a 3-4 and wasn't very good playing in that scheme anyways. Jeremy Jarmon isn't fast and agile enough to play OLB, but is too weak and small to play DE. Carter is out (again, trade) and Chris Wilson would be the other starter assuming we could find no other alternatives. Jarmon may not be ready for the transition and would need to improve his strength (learning from Daniels' example would help) but has the size/frame to pull it off with some work. Jarmon is a project player regardless of where he fits into things, we knew this when we drafted him. I don't see the Patriots letting Wilfork go Neither do I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 According to LaCanfora, link here: http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d81423860&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true , there are some good 3-4 guys that will be available.Vince Wilfork or Casey Hampton would be a good fit at nose tackle while moving Haynesworth to DE to create mismatch problems. Jarvis Green or Travis Kierschke would also be a good start. Larry Foote, Kampman, and Vrabel also look to be upcoming free agents. There is 3-4 talent out there, and we have the money to go get them if we wanted to go to that scheme. LDE - Haynesworth NT - Wilfork RDE - Daniels / Jarmon (he can add bulk for the change) OLB - Orakpo MLB - Fletcher / Vrabel (moved inside in 05 so he is able to do it) MLB - Foote OLB - Vrabel or use Wilson There you go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 The 3-4 allows you to maximize the strengths of certain players, like you inside backers, while minimizing the ability of the opposing OC to exploit their weaknesses. It also allows your play side defenders to run to the ball without worrying about leaving cut back lanes as open as you've got more quickness there and the back side people tend to shut down the cut back lanes as they also flow to the ball. Next, an odd front with just 3 down linemen makes it easier to disguise you defensive call. Finally, if your NT executes, penetration is all but guaranteed and if that happens, good bye running game. Overall, 3-4 is easier to run than a 4-3 (for instance, a well run 4-3 MUST have a lot of talent, you cannot hide a limited LB as easily) but, unless you've got the right personnel, its easy to exploit if your opponent sees it often enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I've seen numerous posters make the same claim. However, not a single poster has said where Shanahan would get such players. The list of UNRESTRICTED free agents who play defense is remarkably bad. How happy would you be if Shanny spent a few high draft picks on defensive players, when we have needs at QB, RB, LT, C, RG, and RT (among others)? Trades for picks. The Skins have 5 picks. They will have more than 5 picks. Free Agency. It doesn't matter what I think or how happy I would be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Overall, 3-4 is easier to run than a 4-3 (for instance, a well run 4-3 MUST have a lot of talent, you cannot hide a limited LB as easily) but, unless you've got the right personnel, its easy to exploit if your opponent sees it often enough. Easier to run? That is not true. 3-4 defense is in fact harder, more responsibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh90286 Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 I agree here as well. Haynesworth might actually be good at it but I'm not entirely sure if he'd be content there. Placing him at DE, though, would likely alleviate some concerns and we could conceivably use him as a hybrid player like Haloti Ngata. I would love to see Haynesworth used like Baltimore uses Ngata. I think he would actually increase his sack totals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Trades for picks. The Skins have 5 picks. They will have more than 5 picks. Free Agency. Who are we going to trade? I would argue that, outside of Haynesworth and Orakpo, we don't have a single player on defense who would command anything more than a 3rd rounder. Or do you plan to further deplete the offensive talent via trade in order to help transition a top 10 defense into a 3-4 defense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 http://walterfootball.com/draft2010DE3-4.php http://walterfootball.com/draft2010OLB3-4.php http://walterfootball.com/draft2010NT.php Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh90286 Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 Who are we going to trade? I would argue that, outside of Haynesworth and Orakpo, we don't have a single player on defense who would command anything more than a 3rd rounder. Or do you plan to further deplete the offensive talent via trade in order to help transition a top 10 defense into a 3-4 defense? I don't think we have to trade for players. We can fill the few needs in free agency leaving our picks for offense. We could even gain a late 3rd rounder/early fourth with Carter if he did not want to split time at OLB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Who are we going to trade? I would argue that, outside of Haynesworth and Orakpo, we don't have a single player on defense who would command anything more than a 3rd rounder. Or do you plan to further deplete the offensive talent via trade in order to help transition a top 10 defense into a 3-4 defense? lol!! The Skins can trade anybody for picks. And Allen said that the Skins aren't keeping 2 pass catching TE's. How did Green Bay do it? This is unbelievable. Its not up too me. I can promise you that if Shanahan wants it, they will play it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 I don't think we have to trade for players. We can fill the few needs in free agency leaving our picks for offense. We could even gain a late 3rd rounder with Carter if he did not want to split time at OLB. Just for offense? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh90286 Posted January 6, 2010 Author Share Posted January 6, 2010 Just for offense? Yes. If I had my way, I would pick nothing but offensive line in the draft. Maybe a late round corner or lb but nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Who are we going to trade? Carter, McIntosh, Landry, and Davis/Cooley all have reasonable trade value and may be odd men out. There's also a small chance we acquire picks for whomever we tender out of the RFA class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManleyMann7271 Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 no need to make that much of a change on Defense, they just need to be a little more aggressive and that will hopefully come with Blache's replacement. it is that west coast offense that has to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Tater Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Easier to run? That is not true. 3-4 defense is in fact harder, more responsibility. A 3-4 is much easier to run. You have MUCH less responsibility unless you are the defensive coordinator especially playing against teams that see a lot of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 lol!! The Skins can trade anybody for picks. Thanks for clearing that up for me. And Allen said that the Skins aren't keeping 2 pass catching TE's. Yes, I know. That doesn't change the fact that I think it would pretty stupid to spend picks (however they are acquired) to acquire guys to run a 3-4. How did Green Bay do it? Green Bay had most of the personnel in place, but still used 2 first round picks on Raji and Matthews. This is unbelievable. Its not up too me. I can promise you that if Shanahan wants it, they will play it. I know it's not up to you and I also know that if Shanny wants it, they will play it. Neither point is in dispute. We've been going back and forth on a different subject, i.e., whether it's a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madison Redskin Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Carter, McIntosh, Landry, and Davis/Cooley all have reasonable trade value and may be odd men out. There's also a small chance we acquire picks for whomever we tender out of the RFA class. Carter is going to be 31 and I suspect that many GMs will think that his increased production was the result of Haynesworth's presence. If I were a GM, I wouldn't offer more than a low 4th rounder/high 5th rounder for him. McIntosh is pretty inconsistent and probably isn't worth more than a 4th rounder. Landry looks like Roy Williams, Jr. I wouldn't trade more than a mid-4th rounder for him. I would trade a 2nd rounder for either Davis or Cooley, but I think any pick we acquire in such a trade would be much better spent on a quarterback, running back, offensive tackle, center, or guard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maskedsuperstar Posted January 6, 2010 Share Posted January 6, 2010 Yes. If I had my way, I would pick nothing but offensive line in the draft. Maybe a late round corner or lb but nothing more. Thats not going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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