OT what should become of andrea yates?

[markrc99]

what a tragedy. i don't believe in the intentional taking of human life,but was wondering what the board's capital punishment advocates think of this one? anyone have some insight on similar cases involving post partum depression? i think she should go to jail! thks

[KevinthePRF]

Her public defense team is probably going to plead insanity. I couldn't agree with them more.

[NavyDave]

I'm pro capital punishment. However in this case it's tragic and the most horrible thing a parent could do to her children but in this case she has to have mental issues so I'll say life imprisonment. What is scary is that she is pregnant again

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Dave

[Art]

You guys do make give me a chuckle. Andrea should go to jail? Kevin writes that her "public defense" team, will go for insanity, a defense he agrees they should go with, presumably because poor Mrs. Yates was clearly so. And, of course, just writing her lawyers as "public defense" would almost make a person think she was being defended by a newly graduated, first-year attorney at the public defenders office, rather than one of the most high-powered, highly-respected, defense attorneys in the country.

You are right Mark, this is a tragedy. For the kids this is a tragedy. For every decent person in this country, this is a tragedy. How some of you would excuse this act committed by this woman on the grounds of the disease of the month is shocking to me. But, I'm sure you were as sorry for Susan Smith in South Carolina when she dumped her kids in the lake, though, unfortunately for her, postpartum depression wasn't quite as popular when she killed her babies.

Or course, poor Susan was having an ongoing relationship with her step-father, her husband, a boyfriend, her boyfriend's father, and at least two other people on and off, so, perhaps she was suffering from some kind of self-esteem disorder. But, let's not worry about poor Susan. Let's concentrate on poor Andrea. I'm sure it was the drugs she was on. The Haldol can lead to violence and delusions. Obviously then, this is why she did it. She was suffering from this terrible mental depression and was being treated by the wrong medication.

This is why our streets are littered with the dead and wounded from those on Haldol. Oh, maybe not so bad as that, but, clearly this must be it. Right guys? How about giving us all a break. Andrea Yates had a fourth child. She was depressed. She tried to commit suicide. Unfortunately she was not successful. So, rather than getting herself or her husband fixed, she decides to have a fifth child. She was depressed again.

She was in misery. And to relieve that misery, she walked into her baby's room and took the child to a bathtub full of water. She put the baby under the water and held it there until the baby sucked in water, filling the lungs, and choking off life. Sadly, this poor woman didn't end her psychosis there. She walked her dead baby to a bedroom, put the lifeless body down, and grabbed another child. She repeated the procedure above.

She repeated the procedure above again.

She repeated the procedure above again.

Then, the fifth child caught on and ran. And she chased that child down. Forced him into the bathroom and she repeated the procedure above, again. Then, this poor woman, who is in misery. Who does not know right from wrong, doesn't kill herself. But, she's still depressed? She doesn't snap out of it, ending her depression with the death of her kids. She doesn't make dinner unaware that anything happened. Not knowing her kids were dead.

She doesn't await her husband, happy, unaware of what took place. Instead, she calmly called her husband and told him to come home. Something was wrong with the children. She then called the police and informed them that she killed her children. And she repeated that when the police arrived.

There, my insanity loving folks, is the rub against insanity. To prove insanity, you must prove the person committing the acts did not know right from wrong at the time of the acts. In this case, Andrea clearly did know it was wrong, because she called the police. She knew to call the police because of what she did, showing she wasn't insane.

It was certainly an insane day for her. What she did is not comprehensible to normal people. But, she should fry to a crisp as rapidly as possible. There is no defense for her. There is no mental condition to excuse her acts. It's not poor Andrea we should feel for here. It's too bad you folks don't recognize that.

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Doom is in the box.

[Art]

Navy, just so you know, Andrea Yates is not pregnant. The test came back negative. And, for the rest that will follow suit here, the issue at hand is murder. All murder is insane. Every murder is an insane act. Every murderer has some mental defect of some sort or another. Every single one. Of course something is wrong with Yates. Something is wrong with every person who commits a murder. But, VERY, VERY few people actually get away with the insanity defense, because so very few people are actually out of their minds. Andrea had been thinking about killing her kids for months. Prior to her psychotic episode, did she ask for help? Did she tell anyone PRIOR to killing her kids that she had thought about killing her kids? You can't excuse murder due to mental defect, because then murder would not be a crime.

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Doom is in the box.

[MarkPSkins]

Here, Here, Art.

The plea should not be Innocent by reason of insanity, but Guilty by reason of insanity.

Also, her death sentence will be, (oh yes, she will fry, do not kill children in Texas, the death penalty is a given) Drowning, hold her butt under water till she chokes and gags and watches the images above her head just out of reach slowly fade to black. I hate this woman with every fiber of my being. She does not deserve to live mentally insane or not.

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As always, my opinions do not reflect the opinions of management and are based on ficticious opinions. Similarities to any opinion living or dead is completely unintentional.

[redman]

I have to applaud what Art wrote. That was outstanding and accurate.

I'm not referring so much to my fellow posters here when I say this but America in general: this Andrea Yates episode, and countless others, has exposed our culture as being willing to forgive damn near anything in order for us to feel better about ourselves for having forgiven. It's frankly pathetic.

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"Loosen up, Sandy baby. You're just too damn tight!" - John Riggins to Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

[KMP]

What I find remarkable about the Andrea Yates situation is that her husband, the father to those 5 children stands by his wife. I couldn't begin to imagine what it would be like to have my wife kill my 5 children. But standing in support of her has got to be last thing on my mind. How this man is holding it together must take a tremendous amount of courage and strength.

She's absolutely crazy, no one will deny that. I don't buy into the innocence by insanity defense. As MarkPSkins said, she's guilty by reason of insanity. As such she should be locked up for life with no possibility for parole. Giving her the death sentance would be meaningless in this case. She should be made to live with the horror of her actions and not get off easy by being put to death.

Making arguments that she should be put to death in the manner with which she killed her children is also pointless. We don't execute people that way in this country. The legally acceptable ways to kill another human being via the death penalty is by gas chamber, electric chair, lethal injection and in some states hanging or being shot. No drowning.

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[MarkPSkins]

sorry KMP, I meant to say should be, not will be. Living in Texas I know how they put people to death.

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As always, my opinions do not reflect the opinions of management and are based on ficticious opinions. Similarities to any opinion living or dead is completely unintentional.

[NavyDave]

Wow. Thanks Art. I didn't hear the whole details on this as until you described it for us.

The media on NBC here portrayed her as a poor mentally challenged lady who was on drugs who snapped.

My opinion has changed now to lethal injection.

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Dave

[Monkey]

I know people with similar medical depression. They still know the difference between right and wrong.

[KMP]

NBC not stand up to journalistic integrity? The same network that said "we won another state" when talking about Al Gore during their election coverage? I won't believe it.

NBC sucks

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[markrc99]

Art,

it's becoming very clear to me that as a boy,you found no use in initially biting off some of the extremities of your animal crackers! oh my g....it's true,isn't it! whoa,just went ahead and CHOMPED off the heads 1st thing! i'm sure there's help out there for ya Art just kiddin'..i agree completely with respect to the use of the insanity defense.

you yourself don't seem to impressed with her public defense's approach or the capabilities of her legal representation. that's just one of the reason's i don't like the idea of executing her. she's not getting O.J.'s dream team. her jury won't be loaded with any of the smypathizers that have adorned her lawn w/bouquets of flowers/etc. when it comes to capitol punishment,i have serious reservations with respect to its application,as i'm sure even many of it's supporters do too.

capitol punishment doesn't further resolve anything and although the state of texas readily fires up the grill,it's clearly is no deterent. although i'm sure there's studies suggesting different. at one time,it was believed that executing the unlawful publicly instilled the fear of consequence for one's actions. it proved to have the opposite effect.

to me,the government&society gets more positive returns publicly from showing compassion when really none is deserved. this may seem cold,but each time i've seen victim's survivors get asked,(that are wanting the perpetrator executed),their reasoning is usually self serving. how can it be anything else? executing the criminal isn't going to lessen their loss,or right the wrong! i do however,support the right of texas to govern however they see fit.

[fansince62]

markrc99....as I have posted in other threads, the argument is not only about consequences - it is about justice. without intending to sound overly barbaric, if my young daughter were murdered and the state did exact final retribution, I would seek out justice on my own. not noble, but it has been an operative principle across hundreds of cultures for thousands of years. and, again, i fail to see how preserving someone's life for 30 to 50 years in the prison system (a form of torture, after all) is any more humane or ethical.

[Art]

Mark, I believed in eating the animal whole. I did not ***** foot around with the business. Until, of course, I learned the glory of dunking. Pardon the expression in relation with this particular case.

While I don't agree with your view on the death penalty, I respect your right to have a view different than my own. However, you are incorrect about the quality of her defense team. She is not represented by a public defender. She is represented by one of the most high profile, notable defense lawyers in the nation. She's doing fine on her defense.

You may not wish to believe it so, Mark, but death is a deterrent. Really. It is. If only we expanded the practice to include crimes like rape or incest or child abuse, you'd find out how much of a deterrent it really is. Of course, we only apply capitol punishment to those guilty of the most terrible crime. In general, you must kill to be killed.

But, let me give you an example of where the death penalty is a deterrent. We have had a dozen or so major spy cases against the U.S. by U.S. citizens over the last 100 years. I'm SURE there have been more than just a dozen or so people spying, but, very rare is a spy case against this country by one of our own citizens. And when a spy is caught, he dies. If a spy thought he'd get to live in prison there might be more of it, because the risk/reward ratio would be less ominous.

I'm not a moral man though Mark. I don't believe in the death penalty for any Biblical eye for an eye proclaimation. I believe the death penalty is just. It is fair. It is right. You commit a terrible act and you cease living. That is justice. Justice is not pampering and catering to the criminal. The reason our current death penalty doesn't always work is because we don't use it enough and we offer far too many protections to make it quick.

No, the problem is not the death penalty. It's the system that doesn't allow us to get it over with. Andrea Yates is guilty. She admitted it. She told police she had been thinking about it for months. The process she used to kill her babies was cold and calculated. She knew it was wrong and called the police. We don't even need a trial on this. Just put a bullet in her head and charge the family for the cost of the bullet.

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Doom is in the box.

[Monkey]

Art,

That coach Icon makes me intimidated

[Ryman of the North]

Art that pun makes you deserving of crapital punishment

all joking aside im one of many canadians who agree with capital punishment.

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HAIL

[bulldog]

what is really ironic in all this is the Europeans beleaguered Bush on his recent visit on the issue of capital punishment, meanwhile the man who stabbed Monica Seles was sent home by a German court because he acted in a way that "showed he was temporarily without reason" but that he would likely not do the same in the future......

then the recent case in England where the boys who killed the 2 year old girl are getting out of jail after only serving 8 years. again, the authorities paroled them saying they are "sure" that the youths have been rehabilitated and pose no threat to the community.

for those of us that believe in the death penalty we have always been asked how we can be so sure it is a deterrent and it is humane.

well, who is asking those that oppose it for their judgments about how to treat individuals like Timothy McVeigh that are not insane just brutal.

Is allowing them to watch TV and write their memoirs in jail at $50,000 a year of taxpayer expense a just outcome?

When so many people are in need of community resources and services today?

I find it hard to justify taking food out of the mouthes of indigent children to pay for the upkeep of individuals who society has already judged to be incapable of rejoining a productive life.

[NavyDave]

Those 2 english boys are going have their cover blown and the mom is determined to find them.

The government doesn't take food out of kids mouths irresponsible adults who pretend to be parents do.

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Dave

[Fitz]

I'm going to reserve judgement on this one until all the facts come out. There is a legitimate reason for an insanity defense, and although Art is correct that it is very rarely applicable, this might be a case that meets the standard. At the very least, though, this woman should be sterilized and institutionalized.

I think what has made this case so troubling for many people has nothing to do with a desire to forgive in order to feel better about ourselves (sorry, redman). You'd have to be inhuman to not be horrified and outraged at the deaths of five innocent children. Rather, I think it has to be the utterly inexplicable nature of the act. Even McVeigh applied his own brand of toxic, twisted logic to the justification of his crime. There doesn't appear to be even that level of reasoning behind these murders. By all accounts that I've seen, Andrea Yates behaved like a normal, loving mother beforehand. That she would so suddenly butcher her children without apparent reason makes this the most disturbing case I've seen within recent memory.

[Art]

What was sudden about it, Fitzman? Yates told police she had been thinking about killing her children for MONTHS. And, by all accounts the woman was suffering from a debilitating postpartum depression. I realize the media is portraying that terrible depression as the cause, while also trying to persuade everyone that she was happy and loving and normal at home, but, honestly, look into this a little.

Either the woman was normal, or she was utterly depressed. She can't have been both. If you've ever had experience with a person suffering from depression, you'll know that the person is far from normal, and happy and loving. Else, she wouldn't be depressed. What "facts" do you need to hear? The woman admitted killing her children. We KNOW precisely how it was done.

She filled a tub of water, then got a child. Then drown the child. Then took the child to a bedroom, and got another child. Then drown that child. Than took that child to the bedroom and got another child. She stacked four dead bodies in a bedroom and chased down her oldest son. She killed him and left him in the bathtub.

She THEN called her husband and told him to hurry home. She called the police and told them she had killed her children. Her husband called back and asked what was going on, is something wrong with the kids. She said, "Yep. Something is wrong with all of them." And the police arrived, and she opened the door and said, "I killed my kids." And she took them to the four dead bodies stacked in a bedroom. The police found the fifth body on their own.

Here's a woman rational enough to call the police and her husband after committing this atrocity she'd been thinking about for MONTHS, by her own admission to the police. Rational enough to call the police after killing her children. Trust me, there's no way she's getting insanity. She knew precisely what she was doing. She wasn't hearing voices. She wasn't delusional. She felt her depression and sadness at home had damaged her children. Again, she has SAID this and it's public record. She felt she was such a bad mother at home, not the happy, fun loving, sweet heart the media is telling you about, that she couldn't let her children live due to the damage she caused them.

Murder is an insane act. All murder is. That doesn't excuse it and her sentence shouldn't be less because her's was worse than most murders.

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Doom is in the box.