JimboDaMan Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 OK, if you wish to play another round of Conservatives are Stupid, I'm game. For this round, I will again remind you of this extemporaneous wisdom of George W. Bush: There's an old saying in Tennessee—I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee—that says, fool me once, shame on—shame on you. Fool me—you can't get fooled again! Parse it, please, and defend and explain each segment. Or be exposed as a hypocrite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 WTF over? could care less about Bush's malapropisms........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 You feel free to extract an off-the-cuff remark by Gore, clear in its original environment, remove it from its context, attach meaning that from the surrounding remarks clearly wasn't intended, and then roast the guy. I feel relatively certain that most conservatives are not stupid enough to actually believe that Gore, in referring to his policy work in the Congress, tried to pull a fast one and make the rubes believe he worked a computer terminal inventing TCP/IP. At least I hope you folks aren't that stupid. But as long as we're gonna pretend, then lets examine the inanities that fall from GWB's mouth and analyze their true meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Jimbo...I'm certain you have a profound understanding and long experience in the IT industry....... I've actually written policy for large network environments - so don't even bother with the lecture. When all is said and done, the case being made is that Gore "saw" the future and played a key role in generating the political support necessary to fund what eventually became the Internet. That he played a role is beyond dispute, even in my doubting mind. That he played a key role is simply historical reconstructionism that begs some modicum of proof. He had little or next to nothing to do with the key roles played at the onset. He was nowhere near the thinking, funding, planning that went on when Rand studies were being formulated; Vinton and his buddies were guessing that there'ld never be more than 16 million nodes; or that 4 bits would be enough for type of service. Where's the intellectual beef? I don't see any of the body of work usually associated with a "seminal" thinker. No books speculating on privacy versus access; no speeches on standards versus innovation; no legislation requiring federal epartments to adopt IT models od one flavor or another. If I recall correctly, Gore himself in his books and magazine interviews has always played up his role as the saviour of the environment - not his indispensable function as the George Washington of byte transportation. Yes, it does make a difference between stating the rather obvious, "telecommunications growth is good", and stating "I need to advance legislation that will fertilize the ocean beds with fiber optic cable and the heavens with EHF/SHF satellites and my advisors inform me that I need to negotiate with the Europeans on SONET versus SDH in order to promote globalization of the Internet".....what has been his record on funding DARPA? or NRL? or Sandia Labs? or Rome Labs? Or Lincoln Labs? Speaking of DARPA, has he ever tracked the success ratio of transitioning 6.1/6.2/6.3 projects into no-kidding operational technologies? What is the standard for the vaunted and honored position of "founding father" of the Internet? details man.........details..........because it certainly appears that what we have here more closely resembles David Crosby than George Washington..... oh...and for a board that is so quick to suspect every intention and motive....why is it that no one questions the link between Cerf's receiving an award from the Clinton administration and his belated recognition of Internet intellectual primogeniture? was Big Al "Le Noir Faineant" all along? and we just couldn't see through the subterfuge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by JimboDaMan OK, if you wish to play another round of Conservatives are Stupid, I'm game. For this round, I will again remind you of this extemporaneous wisdom of George W. Bush: Parse it, please, and defend and explain each segment. Or be exposed as a hypocrite. Jimbo, Ok, one you are talking about a quote where someone says he help created the biggest historical event we have had in the last 50 years, technology wise. Then you are trying to compare it to a quote to Bush blabbering on over nothing. If you can not see the difference of both and that Bush's quote is nothing compared to saying you are a part of one of the countries greatest inventions. Then you are more blind and desperate then I ever thought and looking for anything to justify your stance. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by jbooma Jimbo, Ok, one you are talking about a quote where someone says he help created the biggest historical event we have had in the last 50 years, technology wise. Then you are trying to compare it to a quote to Bush blabbering on over nothing. If you can not see the difference of both and that Bush's quote is nothing compared to saying you are a part of one of the countries greatest inventions. Then you are more blind and desperate then I ever thought and looking for anything to justify your stance. :doh: Perhaps these quotes reveal what's on each man's mind. Gore is thinking about the Internet, economic growth, environmental protection, and education. Bush is thinking about...well, nothing :doh: . fan wants to talk bits and bytes, something Gore never did. fan repeatedly tries to imply Gore called himself "founding father" or some such nonsense. Tell you what, I'll call you out on that. The single off-the-cuff quote taken out of context is all you seem to need to embark on these wild rides on fantasy. You have repeatedly made the sly implication - in quotes, no less - that Gore has claimed to be the "founding father" or the "Father of the Internet". So I'm calling you out on that. Find me the quote from Al Gore including either of those phrases. If you can find even one such quote from him, I will agree with you. I am not aware of any, but I'm always willing to learn. In fact, you stated: If I recall correctly, Gore himself in his books and magazine interviews has always played up his role as the saviour of the environment - not his indispensable function as the George Washington of byte transportation. That's the way I remember it too. So find ANYTHING that supports your position. I'll be waiting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 nice try sly....the burden is on you.....while pontificating about Bush's shortcomings (amusingly so, at least from my perspective, cuz I'm not a Bushie acolyte; and, it's comlpetely irrelevant).........the statement was that he "created the Internet"...we are now wasting time deliberating what that means........and I have opened the window for non-technical issues to intrude...but at some point....the technical has to play some role: we're talking about a technology for christ's sake. policy impacts technology - that's the whole idea slick. where are the details? what was Big Al doing when all of this started with AlohaNet and forward to ARPANET? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by JimboDaMan Perhaps these quotes reveal what's on each man's mind. Gore is thinking about the Internet, economic growth, environmental protection, and education. Bush is thinking about...well, nothing :doh: . If you can find even one such quote from him, I will agree with you. I am not aware of any, but I'm always willing to learn. In fact, you stated: That's the way I remember it too. So find ANYTHING that supports your position. I'll be waiting. Jimbo, first off you are generalizing there a little, how on earth can you find out what is on someone's mind??? The point I was trying to make doesn't seem to get through to you at all. Answer me one question, which quote do you think between Bush and Gore will be remember 20 years from now, or even 50 years from now???? Maybe what Fan was trying to say is when you are quoted saying "I invented the Internet", doesn't that also mean I am the "Father of the Internet", "I am the one responible for the Internet", or even, "I am the creater of the Internet", they all mean the same thing. Here is a def: To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination. To make up; fabricate: invent a likely excuse. To discover, as by study or inquiry; to find out; to devise; to contrive or produce for the first time; -- applied commonly to the discovery of some serviceable mode, instrument, or machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Jimbo are you really Al Gore??? Then I can understand why are still fighting this losing battle. :gus: :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 jbooma, you want to play to? Find me the quote where Al Gore said "I invented the internet". Educate me, please. Because if all you have is that one out of context phrase you conservatives keep misquoting because it doesn't back up your position, I win. If you can show me the quote you just claimed then I will have learned something and will agree with your position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 "I win" sort of sums up your psychology on this........and here I thought we were after some details.... never mind........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Again we are selective in our reading? I also said I'm willing to learn and will agree with your point, if you have one. I win that way also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 This is the actual quote: Gore said, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." initiative means: The power or ability to begin or to follow through energetically with a plan or task; enterprise and determination. A beginning or introductory step; an opening move: took the initiative in trying to solve the problem. Jimbo If i were to say, "I took the initiative in creating the automobile", what do you think everyone would think I meant?? Initiate means to start the process, Gore was 21 when ARPAnet was started just in college, later on he talked about information superhighway when it was already there, like I have said many times that federal government was so behind on the entire interent and jumped in at the last second, yes he helped passed some bills to HELP it but not to start or create it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Lets look at the two words, Invent: To produce or contrive (something previously unknown) by the use of ingenuity or imagination. To make up; fabricate: invent a likely excuse. Initiate: To set going by taking the first step; begin: initiated trade with developing nations. See Synonyms at begin. To introduce to a new field, interest, skill, or activity. See how similar they both are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Look, I'm really not kidding. If you have ANYTHING to back up the quotes and claims you're attributing to Gore, I'm interested. If all you have is that one half sentence then you have nothing. But you guys seem so sure, there MUST be something out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Jimbo that is the actual quote, what else do you want. Look all along I said this never would have happened if he said he initated through congress, and got them to realize how important it was, but what he said was that quote what else do you want??? Everyone else on this board knows he said that, and he said it in an interview. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 in·i·tia·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-nsh-tv) n. The power or ability to begin or to follow through energetically with a plan or task; enterprise and determination. A beginning or introductory step; an opening move: took the initiative in trying to solve the problem. The power or right to introduce a new legislative measure. The right and procedure by which citizens can propose a law by petition and ensure its submission to the electorate. Politicians use the word "initiative" all the time. The above definition came from Dictionary.com. Note: "the power or right to introduce a new legislative measure." How many times have you heard a politician say something like "This initiative will make better use of our tax dollar" or some crap like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by codeorama in·i·tia·tive ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-nsh-tv) n. The power or ability to begin or to follow through energetically with a plan or task; enterprise and determination. A beginning or introductory step; an opening move: took the initiative in trying to solve the problem. The power or right to introduce a new legislative measure. The right and procedure by which citizens can propose a law by petition and ensure its submission to the electorate. Politicians use the word "initiative" all the time. The above definition came from Dictionary.com. Note: "the power or right to introduce a new legislative measure." How many times have you heard a politician say something like "This initiative will make better use of our tax dollar" or some crap like that. Code I agree with you 100% but he just shouldn't said "I initiated the creation of the internet" This has been what I have been trying to say, but Jimbo doesn't understand. I am starting to think that he is Gore :gus: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by jbooma Code I agree with you 100% but he just shouldn't said "I initiated the creation of the internet" This has been what I have been trying to say, but Jimbo doesn't understand. I am starting to think that he is Gore :gus: To be honest, I don't remember whe "the quote" happened, I didn't see it or hear it at the time. But, TEG posted a different version of the quote on this thread, which is correct? I would say this, Gore, whom I don't really care for, but regardless, could not possibly think that anyone would believe that he created the internet. And, the facts do back up the part about Gore being involved in the legislation aspect of the internet's creation. I just have a hard time believing that anyone would claim that they created the internet or something similar, especially when the facts show another "meaning" that makes sense. Would I bet money either way... NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by codeorama To be honest, I don't remember whe "the quote" happened, I didn't see it or hear it at the time. But, TEG posted a different version of the quote on this thread, which is correct? Code the quote did happened, when he was running for president against Bush he had an interview with Wolf Blitzer of CNN and in this interview this is what he said, "In this passage, Williams recycles the Seelye/Connolly bogus quote ("I was the one that started it all"). And he links it to "inventing the Internet." The idea that Gore claimed he "invented the Internet" is a staple of the year's political discourse, but it's somewhat like that midlife crisis—those are words Gore never spoke. Here's what he did say, to CNN's Wolf Blitzer, on Late Edition Primetime in March: GORE: During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet." From this quote out came the bogus one's saying "He started it all, he invented the internet". This was on Primetime so that is why it became such a big deal. I know he didn't want say it that way, I know he helped bring along the Internet with the passing of bills, but this is what he said, and if I were to say, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the automobile". You would think I said I invented the automobile, they are similar as you can see. Later in the interview he did word it differently but as you can see the damage was already done. The fact this was during his running for president is the reason it became such a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimboDaMan Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Code, in one of the first posts in this thread I posted entire exchange where the quote was taken, Blitzer's question and Gore's response. jbooma's version of the quote in his most recent post is incorrect. jbooma: Look all along I said this never would have happened if he said he initated through congress, and got them to realize how important it was, but what he said was that quote what else do you want??? Al Gore: During my service in the United States Congress...etc etc. That's precisely what he did. The entire sentence, as well as the entire passage it was taken from, specifically refers to Al Gore's work within the Congress. Its not possible to get confused unless you extract not just the sentence, but only the last half of the sentence. Then you can make it say what you want it to say, although never in this man's entire public life has he ever made any other statement that can be made to read this way, even under similar torture. And then you think Gore should apologize? edit: we crossed wires on this last post. jbooma, if you can read that in context, accept that he worded it better later on in the same interview, and still think he tried to claim inventing the internet, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Jimbo, I agree with you, The facts show Gore was a part of the legislative process and it doesn't make any sense what so ever for anyone to claim they invented the internet. I would agree that taking one sentance from a conversation can be misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Jimbo, Look this is the entire interview from CNN, it was on CNN when it was done you know. http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1999/03/09/president.2000/transcript.gore/ Now here is the one paragraph: But it will emerge from my dialogue with the American people. I've traveled to every part of this country during the last six years. During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet. I took the initiative in moving forward a whole range of initiatives that have proven to be important to our country's economic growth and environmental protection, improvements in our educational system. I know that it is only one sentence in the entire interview. But when you are running for president you have watch eveything you say. That is why this became such a big deal on the news. If you don't believe this article then now you are saying CNN is making it up even though it was on there program. I personally don't agree with taking words out of context. He was just stupid to say that. All Gore had to say would have been, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in bringing out the importance of the Internet to my fellow Congressmen". That I agree is what he did, but he didn't create it that is what the argument is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Thanks for the post jbooma, But after reading that, 1. I can understand why some would make fun of him, but 2. He is not saying he created the internet. He uses the word initiative just like I posted before, just as politicians use the word. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Originally posted by codeorama Thanks for the post jbooma, But after reading that, 1. I can understand why some would make fun of him, but 2. He is not saying he created the internet. He uses the word initiative just like I posted before, just as politicians use the word. Just my opinion. I agree, he just shouldn't have said created in that sentence, now we are at an agreement, so where are these pics that can not be on the site found :notworthy The other thing is we don't talk like politicians, so when everyone saw, "creating the internet", they jumped on it, no one cared about initiative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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