How big is the problem at OL?

[Thinking Skins]

I'm looking back at a thread from last year, Which UDFA are you rooting for the most?

Last offseason, many of the fans (including myself) were kinda happy (I believe giddy is a better word) about the talent we were able to find along the OL through free agency and UDFA. The names that we were reveling about were Kerry Brown, Devin Clark, Andrew Crummey, and Kyle DeVan, to go along with Chad Reinhart who we drafted last year and Justin Geisner who we signed as a FA.

None of them saw any time this year. Many of them didn't even make the team. But in actualiy, I think Brown got injured, Crummey was a PS player and then was signed to the Bengals active Roser. Chad Reinhart, Devin Clark, and Justin Geisner all made the roster, with Geisner going on IR.

So as this offseason approaches, I'm wondering what we really have along the OL. I realize that none of these guys have ever taken an NFL snap, so I'm not counting on them to be starters this season. And so I'm not saying that we shouldn't address the line in the draft. I'd definately be happy if we brought in a tackle to compete with Heyer at RT and left Jansen as a backup.

But at the same time, I am wondering how good these guys are that we already have (Geisner, Reinhart, and Clark), particularly at pass blocking.

The other question is that just like last year when we got rid of Wade, who do you think gets the axe if we bring in a few linemen. Easily Clark and Geisner can go. Kendall may not be back. But is this the end of Fabini? In my opinion, this creates 2 - 4 roster spots on the line. Last year 3 UDFAs made the roster and one draft pick.

I don't know if Vinny will trade rookies for 1st year players, especially if Buges tells him that he likes the 1st year guys (Buges is already on record saying he doesn't like rookies). I guess one positive is that I didn't don't remember hearing too much about Devin Clark - the only tackle behind Samuels, Jansen, and Heyer last year. So if we get rid of him, we can bring in a talented rookie.

[RWJ]

To me its a huge problem. OL must be addressed in FA and the draft. A DT and DE as well.

[Shilsu]

This team and its fans and Vinny Cerrato needs to stop with their love affair of UDFA, especially on the lines. I'm tired of hearing about how great Crummey and Geisinger and Buzbee are. Heck, I'm tired of hearing how half the NFL would kill to have Heyer as their RT. Players like Antonio Pierce are something you should be lucky to have. Not something you should try to do on purpose.

[Thinking Skins]

To me its a huge problem. OL must be addressed in FA and the draft. A DT and DE as well.

But as it stands, we have 4 draft picks. If we trade back then this will obviously change, but right now we have 4 draft picks. You're saying you're not willing to spend the draft on a RT and DTs and then try and develop the guards we signed as UDFAs last year?

[Thinking Skins]

And what if we don't draft a RT? How bad is Heyer as a starting RT? He played admirably in 2007 and wasn't a dominant run blocker in 2008, but was a MUCH better pass protector than Jansen.

[Shilsu]

And what if we don't draft a RT? How bad is Heyer as a starting RT? He played admirably in 2007 and wasn't a dominant run blocker in 2008, but was a MUCH better pass protector than Jansen.

Then it just shows our front office is still retarded.

[Thinking Skins]

This team and its fans and Vinny Cerrato needs to stop with their love affair of UDFA, especially on the lines. I'm tired of hearing about how great Crummey and Geisinger and Buzbee are. Heck, I'm tired of hearing how half the NFL would kill to have Heyer as their RT. Players like Antonio Pierce are something you should be lucky to have. Not something you should try to do on purpose.

Its not that, but if you're able to draft a Pierce, then do you need to go the next year looking for a Ulracher? I wonder if we're calling the OL a weakness based on having not seen players play.

[Shilsu]

Its not that, but if you're able to draft a Pierce, then do you need to go the next year looking for a Ulracher? I wonder if we're calling the OL a weakness based on having not seen players play.

So what you're saying is that we should rely on blind faith that our UDFA OL will turn into the next Joe Jacoby?

Like I said, it's nice to be lucky, but trying to base your strategy on hitting a jackpot is "calculated stupidity".

It's the same as people who never hit 16 in Blackjack versus a dealer showing a 10.

[Thinking Skins]

Then it just shows our front office is still retarded.

So what if we didn't draft a RT and Heyer was a pro bowl RT this year? Or Reinhart replaced Kendall and had an admirable year?

I honestly think that the DL is a bigger weakness than the OL because we haven't even addressed that position other than a few band-aid solutions. I would love to see us draft defensive linemen and outside linebackers who can rush the passer. That way we can stop teams on their last drives like we were trying to do at the Rams, Dallas, the Ravens, and the 49ers.

And it may create this thing called a pass rush which has been non-existent in DC since a guy named Charles Mann was still playing here.

[Aston]

Depth at tackle (both left and right) should be priority one. We have a total of 3 tackles who have any decent game experience, one of which (Jansen) was about as effective pass blocking as Randel El was returning punts.

At guard, Reinhart is a good young guard that can fill in/replace Thomas or Kendall but he's all the depth we got besides Fabini who will be 35 at the start of next season.

At center, Rabauch isn't too bad, but he's getting old too and has no one behind him either besides Giesinger.

We're stacked at tight end though!

[Shilsu]

So what if we didn't draft a RT and Heyer was a pro bowl RT this year? Or Reinhart replaced Kendall and had an admirable year?

I honestly think that the DL is a bigger weakness than the OL because we haven't even addressed that position other than a few band-aid solutions. I would love to see us draft defensive linemen and outside linebackers who can rush the passer. That way we can stop teams on their last drives like we were trying to do at the Rams, Dallas, the Ravens, and the 49ers.

And it may create this thing called a pass rush which has been non-existent in DC since a guy named Charles Mann was still playing here.

If Heyer becomes a Pro Bowl RT, and makes it based on merit, that's great. That doesn't make our front office any less stupid, it just means the Redskins got lucky, because there is no objective way to determine that Heyer has a likely chance of turning out as such, especially after having game experience through two seasons.

DL is a problem, and so is OL. OLB's are overrated in a 4-3 scheme.

[Thinking Skins]

So what you're saying is that we should rely on blind faith that our UDFA OL will turn into the next Joe Jacoby?

Like I said, it's nice to be lucky, but trying to base your strategy on hitting a jackpot is "calculated stupidity".

It's the same as people who never hit 16 in Blackjack versus a dealer showing a 10.

Nah, I'm asking an open question of how bad is our OL. I think that there is a bit of uncertainty there because we don't know how well those UDFAs will perform, but many of them had high scouting reports last year. I do think that RT is a weakness, but the fact remains that we have two guys who have starting experience there.

If we draft OL, do you really think we're going to cut Samuels, Rabach, or Thomas? So at best we're looking at replacing two guys on the OL and looking for depth. Heyer is ready to start at RT today and Reinhart and Geisner and some others can compete for the other starting spot at LG.

We have a solution there. What do we have on the DL? On the DL, we're thinking of getting rid of Griffin. We have no pass rush, and no LBs who can rush the passer. This has been a known problem for years. And we've done nothing to address it.

Sorry, but I think a known known (our horrible DL) is more of a problem than a known unknown (how Heyer, Reinhart, Geisner will perform).

[2cents]

4 picks = 2 OL and 2 DL. Not much, but it is a start.

[Thinking Skins]

Depth at tackle (both left and right) should be priority one. We have a total of 3 tackles who have any decent game experience, one of which (Jansen) was about as effective pass blocking as Randel El was returning punts.

At guard, Reinhart is a good young guard that can fill in/replace Thomas or Kendall but he's all the depth we got besides Fabini who will be 35 at the start of next season.

At center, Rabauch isn't too bad, but he's getting old too and has no one behind him either besides Giesinger.

We're stacked at tight end though!

So you're agreeing with me that we need DEPTH on the OL, whereas we need STARTERS along the DL. Its amazing to me that fans are favoring depth over starters.

[Thinking Skins]

4 picks = 2 OL and 2 DL. Not much, but it is a start.

Yeah, but I wouldn't mind having a draft that went like our second round last year - except its all focused on pressuring the QB.

Hopefully Snyder will realize that people buy Javon Kearse and Terrell Suggs jerseys too. If he can get somebody to lead the league in sacks, they'll be just as much of a revenue generator as the skill positions on offense do.

[Shilsu]

Nah, I'm asking an open question of how bad is our OL. I think that there is a bit of uncertainty there because we don't know how well those UDFAs will perform, but many of them had high scouting reports last year. I do think that RT is a weakness, but the fact remains that we have two guys who have starting experience there.

If we draft OL, do you really think we're going to cut Samuels, Rabach, or Thomas? So at best we're looking at replacing two guys on the OL and looking for depth. Heyer is ready to start at RT today and Reinhart and Geisner and some others can compete for the other starting spot at LG.

We have a solution there. What do we have on the DL? On the DL, we're thinking of getting rid of Griffin. We have no pass rush, and no LBs who can rush the passer. This has been a known problem for years. And we've done nothing to address it.

Sorry, but I think a known known (our horrible DL) is more of a problem than a known unknown (how Heyer, Reinhart, Geisner will perform).

First, I'm going to tell you a secret about scouting reports. 95% of them are positive, just like analyst opinions on stocks used to be.

Second, the situation on the OL is bad. What you consider a solution is basically to bolster our below average offensive line with average and unproven players. That's not a solution.

Third, I agree our DL is bad but your logic about how our OL is okay just doesn't make sense. I could pull the same dumbass rhetoric used by people who tried to rationalize why we didn't draft DL last season: "We have Buzbee and Rob Jackson, and Montgomery and Golston can become starters".

[deejaydana]

Wasn't Geisner the guy who had his head ripped off and stuffed up his a** by Terrell Suggs when we played the Ravens this year (all the while Suggs was laughing and looking at our bench w/both shock and joy)? Yeah, that guy needs to move on to his true calling because he won't find it in the NFL.

[Thinking Skins]

First, I'm going to tell you a secret about scouting reports. 95% of them are positive, just like analyst opinions on stocks used to be.

Second, the situation on the OL is bad. What you consider a solution is basically to bolster our below average offensive line with average and unproven players. That's not a solution.

Third, I agree our DL is bad but your logic about how our OL is okay just doesn't make sense. I could pull the same dumbass rhetoric used by people who tried to rationalize why we didn't draft DL last season: "We have Buzbee and Rob Jackson, and Montgomery and Golston can become starters".

Yeah, but the difference here is that Montgomery and Golston have had much game experience and are not able to constantly collapse the pocket or get any pressure. Buzbee and Rob Jackson are interesting prospects that I would actually like to see get some playing time. But I think we need guys who have a knack for pressuring the QB, at DT, DE and OLB.

Thats 3 of our 4 picks right there. So if we used that 4th pick on an RT, cool, but I'd rather we double up at DT or OLB in case Vinny doesn't do as good of a job as he did last year:laugh:

[pokerhog]

Just to clarify, Justin Geisinger did see time on the field. He took the place of Chris Samuels when Chris and Jansen went down in the same game. Geisinger promptly gave up a sack, and then switched over to RT with Heyer moving to LT. Geisinger went on IR after the game, injuring himself as well. My point is, that apparently Geisinger was next on the depth chart before all the other OL you named. He will most likely stay as a backup. We did a very good job last year attempting to address the OL in UFA. I wish we could have hung on to Crummey. At any rate, while UFA might provide an unexpected gem, that gem is more than likely a valued back-up. What the Redskins need is an offensive line starter. We need to spend our first round pick on a player who has real potential to anchor a spot for 8-10 years. FA could be a way to go, but I really think the draft is a far better way to address this problem. LT's are very valuable in this league, and if you can get one in FA, it's because someone is letting him get away. Draft a young, talented, mammoth kid, and let Buges coach 'em up our way!

[Shilsu]

Yeah, but the difference here is that Montgomery and Golston have had much game experience and are not able to constantly collapse the pocket or get any pressure. Buzbee and Rob Jackson are interesting prospects that I would actually like to see get some playing time. But I think we need guys who have a knack for pressuring the QB, at DT, DE and OLB.

Thats 3 of our 4 picks right there. So if we used that 4th pick on an RT, cool, but I'd rather we double up at DT or OLB in case Vinny doesn't do as good of a job as he did last year:laugh:

How is that different from Stephon Heyer who has shown he can't be consistently relied upon, is injury prone, and needs help on his side whenever he's in the game? This over multiple games through two seasons.

[maskedsuperstar]

This team and its fans and Vinny Cerrato needs to stop with their love affair of UDFA, especially on the lines. I'm tired of hearing about how great Crummey and Geisinger and Buzbee are. Heck, I'm tired of hearing how half the NFL would kill to have Heyer as their RT. Players like Antonio Pierce are something you should be lucky to have. Not something you should try to do on purpose.

There is always a kid out there that can play, but there name is never called on Saturday or Sunday. Doesn't mean they can't play. The Giants have 2 UDFA on their starting OL, along with a 5th rounder. So, you are wrong. And if you look at the Skins practice squad, it was raided a lot this season. So, other teams think the Skins have some good, young talent. Morocco Brown will be the man that changes things.

[Thinking Skins]

Just to clarify, Justin Geisinger did see time on the field. He took the place of Chris Samuels when Chris and Jansen went down in the same game. Geisinger promptly gave up a sack, and then switched over to RT with Heyer moving to LT. Geisinger went on IR after the game, injuring himself as well. My point is, that apparently Geisinger was next on the depth chart before all the other OL you named. He will most likely stay as a backup. We did a very good job last year attempting to address the OL in UFA. I wish we could have hung on to Crummey. At any rate, while UFA might provide an unexpected gem, that gem is more than likely a valued back-up. What the Redskins need is an offensive line starter. We need to spend our first round pick on a player who has real potential to anchor a spot for 8-10 years. FA could be a way to go, but I really think the draft is a far better way to address this problem. LT's are very valuable in this league, and if you can get one in FA, it's because someone is letting him get away. Draft a young, talented, mammoth kid, and let Buges coach 'em up our way!

I disagree. If we were able to draft a starter, it would definitely help an aging offensive line, but I don't think we NEED an OL starter. Any pick is going to either (assuming Kendall is gone)

- be groomed to take over for Samuels, Rabach, or Thomas

- compete with Heyer at RT

- compete with Geisner, Reinhart at LG

So it automatically addresses the depth along our OL. I didn't notice that Geisner was in the game against Baltimore, but that shows that Buges thinks highly of him already. Hopefully he continues to improve, but it seems that the UDFAs we have just need to be developed.

What do we have on the DL? Nobody who can get any pressure; nobody who can beat their guys one on one;

The DL is a much bigger problem to me.

[Shilsu]

There is always a kid out there that can play, but there name is never called on Saturday or Sunday. Doesn't mean they can't play. The Giants have 2 UDFA on their starting OL, along with a 5th rounder. So, you are wrong. And if you look at the Skins practice squad, it was raided a lot this season. So, other teams think the Skins have some good, young talent. Morocco Brown will be the man that changes things.

Sorry, but Shaun O'Hara was a proven center the Giants acquired who happened to be a former UDFA. Rich Seubert finally proved himself after six seasons, despite having his number called multiple times to fill in over the years.

Like I said, having an UDFA who can become a bonfide starter is something any team would be lucky to have. To base your strategy around being lucky enough to find these UDFA is just plain stupidity.

[Shilsu]

I disagree. If we were able to draft a starter, it would definitely help an aging offensive line, but I don't think we NEED an OL starter. Any pick is going to either (assuming Kendall is gone)

- be groomed to take over for Samuels, Rabach, or Thomas

- compete with Heyer at RT

- compete with Geisner, Reinhart at LG

So it automatically addresses the depth along our OL. I didn't notice that Geisner was in the game against Baltimore, but that shows that Buges thinks highly of him already. Hopefully he continues to improve, but it seems that the UDFAs we have just need to be developed.

What do we have on the DL? Nobody who can get any pressure; nobody who can beat their guys one on one;

The DL is a much bigger problem to me.

Why do you assume that any pick we made on OL is going to be "groomed" or "competing" and any pick we make on DL will automatically start? The only untouchable position is LT, provided Chris Samuels can come back after injury in good shape.

[Thinking Skins]

How is that different from Stephon Heyer who has shown he can't be consistently relied upon, is injury prone, and needs help on his side whenever he's in the game? This over multiple games through two seasons.

Sorry, you're wrong about Stephon. He had a bad game against dude in SF, but Heyer was having a real good year protecting Campbell until he got hurt and missed the game. That was when Portis started his streak of 120 yard games and so Zorn stuck with Jansen, but Heyer is a real good pass protector.