How big is the problem at OL?

[maskedsuperstar]

Yeah, but the difference here is that Montgomery and Golston have had much game experience and are not able to constantly collapse the pocket or get any pressure. Buzbee and Rob Jackson are interesting prospects that I would actually like to see get some playing time. But I think we need guys who have a knack for pressuring the QB, at DT, DE and OLB.

Thats 3 of our 4 picks right there. So if we used that 4th pick on an RT, cool, but I'd rather we double up at DT or OLB in case Vinny doesn't do as good of a job as he did last year:laugh:

The Skins have 4 picks. Trade down and get more picks. The Skins could use at least 4 more picks. I think everyone will agree that both lines need to be addressed. What was the real problem? The OL. It failed after the bye. The Skins can start there. Next look at the DL. Buzbee and Jackson look like they can get to the QB. Buzbee has speed. KC almost signed him but the Skins put him on the active roster. So, they feel he can play.

Buzbee and Jackson are young. Draft another DE. Larry English or Connor Barwin? Brian Orapko will be gone off the board, at #13.

[Thinking Skins]

Why do you assume that any pick we made on OL is going to be "groomed" or "competing" and any pick we make on DL will automatically start? The only untouchable position is LT, provided Chris Samuels can come back after injury in good shape.

uuh, the fact that we don't NEED to replace them. Thomas, and Rabach both had good years. Or are you just afraid because they're over 30?

[Thinking Skins]

The Skins have 4 picks. Trade down and get more picks. The Skins could use at least 4 more picks. I think everyone will agree that both lines need to be addressed. What was the real problem? The OL. It failed after the bye. The Skins can start there. Next look at the DL. Buzbee and Jackson look like they can get to the QB. Buzbee has speed. KC almost signed him but the Skins put him on the active roster. So, they feel he can play.

Buzbee and Jackson are young. Draft another DE. Larry English or Connor Barwin? Brian Orapko will be gone off the board, at #13.

I don't disagree with this idea. The problem is that I don't know that Vinny will trade down. He said he will, and that kinda makes me think he won't. So I'm preparing myself for having 4 (or less) picks come draft day.

[Shilsu]

Sorry, you're wrong about Stephon. He had a bad game against dude in SF, but Heyer was having a real good year protecting Campbell until he got hurt and missed the game. That was when Portis started his streak of 120 yard games and so Zorn stuck with Jansen, but Heyer is a real good pass protector.

So what did you base your assertation that I was wrong about Stephon on? Was it the two whole games he played before he got injured, where Jason Campbell ate a sack when Heyer was left alone versus Tuck?

The good game he had against Cincinnati, a team that has an even worse pass rush than we do? The game against the Eagles where Cooley and the RBS had to help Heyer out, hence one of Cooley's lowest outputs of the season?

And there's also the matter of Heyer's propensity to get injured despite limited amount of play.

[Shilsu]

uuh, the fact that we don't NEED to replace them. Thomas, and Rabach both had good years. Or are you just afraid because they're over 30?

Thomas and Rabach didn't have good years, don't kid yourself. Die Hard had a post about breaking down Thomas getting abused, and our blocking schemes were based around masking Rabach's deficiencies. See PGH.

[Thinking Skins]

So what did you base your assertation that I was wrong about Stephon on? Was it the two whole games he played before he got injured, where Jason Campbell ate a sack when Heyer was left alone versus Tuck?

The good game he had against Cincinnati, a team that has an even worse pass rush than we do? The game against the Eagles where Cooley and the RBS had to help Heyer out, hence one of Cooley's lowest outputs of the season?

And there's also the matter of Heyer's propensity to get injured despite limited amount of play.

Check out these threads:

Heyer and Fabini

Stephon Heyer vs. Jon Jansen

I see people saying Heyer is a back up at best, yet he won the starting job going into the season. Hmmm

He was brought in to play left guard, which didn't work out, and Pete was brought in to take that spot. He was pretty much thrown into the fire last season, and fared well when playing RT. Yes, his run blocking could be better, and improved since last season. His pas protection is superior to Jansens hands down.

Jansen is a liability, but there could be more to it. I'm not in the locker room, or on the practice field, but it sure looks like pure blind loyalty to a player not getting the job done when the game is on. Why isn't Heyer on the field ?

Could Portis have something to do with it? Could he have said that the run blocking is so much better with Jansen, and if I'm to carry this team on my back, he needs to get the spot....... This may not be as far fetched as it may sound to some, but the problem is, jansen isn't getting the job done in the running game either when facing a good team. At the same time, he getting the QB killed.

Heyer should be starting, and will have the spot for years to come. People say he's servicable at best, and seem to need a name brand. Look at the Giants O line. Everybody knows them now, but they were made up from no name blue collar players, and have youth on their side. Looking at that line two years ago, all were servicable at best.

I mean, I can go on and on about how people's opinion of Heyer was high last year and this year.

[Shilsu]

Check out these threads:

Heyer and Fabini

Stephon Heyer vs. Jon Jansen

I mean, I can go on and on about how people's opinion of Heyer was high last year and this year.

So your proof is based on threads on ExtremeSkins, a forum that naturally overrates players on the Redskins. Should I pull threads and posts on ExtremeSkins that say Heyer is not that great, and you'll consider that proof?

The proof is in the games. Heyer's not that good.

And you still haven't addressed him being injury prone. Who cares if he's great, if he keeps getting injured every couple of games.

[SkinsSyco4Life]

1- How big is the problem at OL?

2- Are you a Jason Campbell supporter?

3- If your answer to # 2 is yes.

4- The answer to #1 is..............It is a HUGE problem.

[Thinking Skins]

1- How big is the problem at OL?

2- Are you a Jason Campbell supporter?

3- If your answer to # 2 is yes.

4- The answer to #1 is..............It is a HUGE problem.

funny

[Thinking Skins]

So your proof is based on threads on ExtremeSkins, a forum that naturally overrates players on the Redskins. Should I pull threads and posts on ExtremeSkins that say Heyer is not that great, and you'll consider that proof?

The proof is in the games. Heyer's not that good.

And you still haven't addressed him being injury prone. Who cares if he's great, if he keeps getting injured every couple of games.

well, we don't have the technology to go through play by play where I can analyze his technique and say how well he's doing. So I'm trying to convince you by quoting respected members of the forum.

Or if you'd like, I could look for comments from analysts (WP has been known to be a negative slant) saying similar things.

[Shilsu]

well, we don't have the technology to go through play by play where I can analyze his technique and say how well he's doing. So I'm trying to convince you by quoting respected members of the forum.

Or if you'd like, I could look for comments from analysts (WP has been known to be a negative slant) saying similar things.

Just because a member is respected does not mean his opinion is gold, and we don't have the technology, but we can make educated opinions based on just watching the games and reviewing what happened after.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't necessarily hold your arguments in high esteem. This is what you said in regards to why picking Fred Davis was the correct choice early on this season.

What real NEEDS do we have?

- DL? Well, we've got too many right now, and we've got to sit one every day. Even if we didn't trade for Taylor, we'd still had Daniels (and we didn't know he'd get injured on draft day).

- OL? We drafted somebody in the third and he hasn't even been activated yet

The truth is that this was a well equipped team for the season with very little holes to fill.

Meanwhile, our DL will be the same as prior to Daniels got injured, except this time we have the addition of Jason Taylor. According to you, our DL is still not a need.

[kovachs]

Let's just say these guys on the line aren't going to get better...most of them are old enough that you hope they are still as good next year and don't decline physically. Heyer was a huge upgrade over Jansen in pass blocking and probably over all. He will be stronger and better next year. Jansen will be slower next year. How is it that we are paying a RT 6-7 million a year when he is not as good as and Undrafter free agent?

The line is a problem and it needs to be addressed.

[Thinking Skins]

Just because a member is respected does not mean his opinion is gold, and we don't have the technology, but we can make educated opinions based on just watching the games and reviewing what happened after.

You'll have to forgive me if I don't necessarily hold your arguments in high esteem. This is what you said in regards to why picking Fred Davis was the correct choice early on this season.

Meanwhile, our DL will be the same as prior to Daniels got injured, except this time we have the addition of Jason Taylor. According to you, our DL is still not a need.

Must you remind me of those days? I was trying my hardest to convince myself to have faith in the Skins....I was tired of complaining, but my question stands independent of what I said last year.

[Shilsu]

Must you remind me of those days? I was trying my hardest to convince myself to have faith in the Skins....I was tired of complaining, but my question stands independent of what I said last year.

In the same way, I think you're having too much faith in our offensive line. I don't mind having Heyer as our backup, and if we could cut Jansen without suffering such a massive hit, it'd be great. But I don't feel comfortable having to rely on Heyer (or Jansen) for an entire season.

We need to concentrate on both OL and DL. It might be fixable in one season, even with only four draft picks. Who knows.

[Thinking Skins]

Meanwhile, our DL will be the same as prior to Daniels got injured, except this time we have the addition of Jason Taylor. According to you, our DL is still not a need.

Actually, if you go back further (pre-draft) , you'll probably find posts where I was praying for DL. Then when we didn't get it, I tried to cope with it.

Then I was against Jason Taylor, and when we got him, I went along with it.

I have a tendancy to root for the team no matter how stupid the front office is (I had a sig for a while calling our front office village idiots). I've just learned to dismiss it like dirt off my sholder.

Honestly, we'll probably both be pissed come free agency and draft day...I can see us drafting RB and CB and ignoring the lines for yet another year.

But still, I'm praying that we can have some luck with the UDFAs from last year (who are already on the roster).

[Shilsu]

But still, I'm praying that we can have some luck with the UDFAs from last year (who are already on the roster).

We could hope that we have luck with our second round draft class and they all make huge contributions next season when we fix our lines.

[TheLongshot]

Thomas and Rabach didn't have good years, don't kid yourself. Die Hard had a post about breaking down Thomas getting abused, and our blocking schemes were based around masking Rabach's deficiencies. See PGH.

It is funny, most of us look out there and think Rabach struggled at blocking sometimes, but then some writers think he actually had a Pro Bowl season. I'm not sure what to make of that, except that maybe we don't know as much as we think we know. :whoknows:

As for Thomas, it definitely wasn't an all pro season for him last year, but he was hardly a liability either. He's also pretty untouchable right now, with his contract and the fact that he's still very capable.

So, what are the spots we can change? Unlike you, I think Heyer is a pretty damn good player. Yes, he needed some help at the end of the season, but that's probably because he's not Chris Samuels, who can take on the best pass rushers one-on-one, which is what you get at LT. At RT, I think he will be more than solid.

We don't know what Rinehart brings to the table, but he's probably going to have ample opportunity to prove it since he's likely to take over for Kendall at LG.

That leaves center and the enigma that is Rabach. Is he going to be "fine" or are they going to try to find someone who can be more physical in the middle?

We also need to take a look at how many slots can be up for grabs. The following players are very likely to still be on the roster next year:

Thomas

Rabach

Jansen

Heyer

Rinehart

Samuels

Of the rest:

Fabini - Likely gone, especially if Jansen is kept around.

Kendall - He has a lot of value from the standpoint of being able to play all the OL positions. I think you keep him as a reserve.

Clark - As a developmental player, he's likely to continue to ride the PS.

So, we are looking at 7 players (if Kendall resigns) who are likely to be back. That gives us at least one vet to cover guard and center (Kendall) and one to cover OT. We probably can add 2-3 more. That could come from the laundry list of UDFA or it could come from drafted players. I think people dreaming of addressing this in FA is just a dream. There is a ton of cap space already devoted to who we got now.

[Aston]

So you're agreeing with me that we need DEPTH on the OL, whereas we need STARTERS along the DL. Its amazing to me that fans are favoring depth over starters.

First off all, Jansen is/was a starter that needs to be replaced if Heyer can't go.

Second, what starters on the defensive line need to be replaced?

Third, I think you're under-emphasizing the importance of depth. Particularly when you have literally NONE at some positions.

Fourth, after watching the team this season, it's amazing that anyone can think our DL is our biggest problem. The Lions, who will be mentioned in conversations about the worst NFL team ever, scored more points than us.

With a new coach, struggling QB, rookie receivers and a Pro Bowl running back, you need to have plenty of able OL.

We should still be drafting a DL, but OL is our biggest problem.

[TheLongshot]

First off all, Jansen is/was a starter that needs to be replaced if Heyer can't go.

Second, what starters on the defensive line need to be replaced?

Third, I think you're under-emphasizing the importance of depth. Particularly when you have literally NONE at some positions.

Fourth, after watching the team this season, it's amazing that anyone can think our DL is our biggest problem. The Lions, who will be mentioned in conversations about the worst NFL team ever, scored more points than us.

With a new coach, struggling QB, rookie receivers and a Pro Bowl running back, you need to have plenty of able OL.

We should still be drafting a DL, but OL is our biggest problem.

The difference is, we know we have young players on the OL who can develop into better players. Other than Jackson, we don't have that on the DL. Unless Golston and Montgomery become MUCH better on a regular basis, we are going to need to upgrade there.

While we do need to get younger on the OL, we don't have the need to have an impact player that we do on the DL.

[Shilsu]

It is funny, most of us look out there and think Rabach struggled at blocking sometimes, but then some writers think he actually had a Pro Bowl season. I'm not sure what to make of that, except that maybe we don't know as much as we think we know. :whoknows:

As for Thomas, it definitely wasn't an all pro season for him last year, but he was hardly a liability either. He's also pretty untouchable right now, with his contract and the fact that he's still very capable.

So, what are the spots we can change? Unlike you, I think Heyer is a pretty damn good player. Yes, he needed some help at the end of the season, but that's probably because he's not Chris Samuels, who can take on the best pass rushers one-on-one, which is what you get at LT. At RT, I think he will be more than solid.

We don't know what Rinehart brings to the table, but he's probably going to have ample opportunity to prove it since he's likely to take over for Kendall at LG.

That leaves center and the enigma that is Rabach. Is he going to be "fine" or are they going to try to find someone who can be more physical in the middle?

We also need to take a look at how many slots can be up for grabs. The following players are very likely to still be on the roster next year:

Thomas

Rabach

Jansen

Heyer

Rinehart

Samuels

Of the rest:

Fabini - Likely gone, especially if Jansen is kept around.

Kendall - He has a lot of value from the standpoint of being able to play all the OL positions. I think you keep him as a reserve.

Clark - As a developmental player, he's likely to continue to ride the PS.

So, we are looking at 7 players (if Kendall resigns) who are likely to be back. That gives us at least one vet to cover guard and center (Kendall) and one to cover OT. We probably can add 2-3 more. That could come from the laundry list of UDFA or it could come from drafted players. I think people dreaming of addressing this in FA is just a dream. There is a ton of cap space already devoted to who we got now.

I would think that we, ExtremeSkins, of all people should know that writers' opinions don't mean ****. Players in general do not respect the opinions of sports journalists.

As for contract ramifications.... Gregg Williams actually did a good job of pointing out it doesn't matter what you get paid when he benched Adam Archuleta. The starters should be those that produce.

We need a RT. We will need a G and C. Hopefully we have the foresight to already have those players, because the possibility of that time they are needed is this coming season.

[Shilsu]

Also, what's with the either-or....

We need a better DL. We also need a better OL. We have free agency and four draft picks. That's not a lot, but it is possible to address both.

[Aston]

The difference is, we know we have young players on the OL who can develop into better players.

Who? Reinhart and Heyer? That's literally all we have in terms of young players.

[TheLongshot]

I would think that we, ExtremeSkins, of all people should know that writers' opinions don't mean ****. Players in general do not respect the opinions of sports journalists.

True, but it does make you wonder why so many were thinking that, that maybe you are missing something.

As for contract ramifications.... Gregg Williams actually did a good job of pointing out it doesn't matter what you get paid when he benched Adam Archuleta. The starters should be those that produce.

Well, I doubt that a rookie is going to produce better than Thomas, even when Thomas isn't always at his best. A rookie needs to make up the experience gap and sometimes the physical gap.

We need a RT. We will need a G and C. Hopefully we have the foresight to already have those players, because the possibility of that time they are needed is this coming season.

I don't know if I agree with you that we will need ALL of that next season. Eventually, yes, but Rome wasn't built in a day, and this OL won't be completely rebuilt in one offseason.

[Aston]

Also, what's with the either-or....

We need a better DL. We also need a better OL. We have free agency and four draft picks. That's not a lot, but it is possible to address both.

I agree, we need both. That said, in the spirit of the thread title, I still think OL is a bigger problem than DL.

[TheLongshot]

Who? Reinhart and Heyer? That's literally all we have in terms of young players.

That's more than what we got on the DL, and you need more players because those players rotate in and out, where you typically have just the five guys starting on the OL.